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Why the romance limitations are a good thing!


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#1
timebean

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MESSAGE POPULAIRE !

Why the romance limitations in DAI are a GOOD thing.

 

I know there have been numerous posts about romance options in DA (all games), ranging from overjoyed to angry, but I have yet to see anyone post about the positive aspect of limiting the romance options.  This is a rather long post, but hopefully worth it.

DAO was the first RPG game I ever really played.  A friend loaned it to me when I randomly bought a PS3 to have something fun to do with my younger brother when he visited.  After it sat on my TV stand for weeks, I finally put it in one day to check it out…and then sat in front of my TV for weeks playing it. I had no idea what to expect when I started…so I chose female human rogue and went at it.

 

Having had no prior experience with gaming, I remember very clearly thinking…”Is this Alistair fella…flirting with me?”  I had no idea that romances were even an option when I started, so it was so fun and engrossing to watch the shy little templar get cozy with my rebellious Coulsand lass. And it was awesome for me, because I always assumed video games were all hack and slash.  I had no idea that you could have a lover, and friends, and rivals, and all that jazz.  That is what roleplaying should be! I was so into the whole story…Wynne was like my own mom, Leliana my nutty little sister, and Sten someone I was desperate to get to know and earn his respect.  But my romance with Alistair made it all worthwhile.  My poor Warden, grieving for her brother and hell bent on revenge, meeting a sweet guy who makes her laugh.  Classic love story in the midst of darkspawn and dragons.  Whoopee!

 

When I reached the end, I made him the King. When he broke my warden’s heart, I was…well…heartbroken!  Then Morrigan comes in and I think we’ll all get to live after all. And so I stroll across the hall to man who broke my warden’s heart, prepared to use my high coercion score to convince him. I almost did.  Then, he looks up at me and says “Is this really what you want me to do….are you sure?”  Damn it!  Why did they write him so well???

 

I couldn’t do it. Why?  Because my warden loved that guy. Because I was IMMERSED!  I sacrificed my warden because the relationship I built up with Alistair made the idea of him doing a dark ritual abhorrent to me.   That is the power of the romances in these games.  I basically killed my character after over 100 hrs of gameplay because I didn’t want my love interest to think ill of me!  THAT is why the romances are awesome!  They just…suck you in!

 

So, with the game over, I decided to play through again as a female Dalish elf.  And that’s when the awesomeness died.  I know it sounds silly, but when Alistair started loving up on the elf, I was annoyed.  And then I realized that Zevran and Leliana were once again becoming interested.  It completely spoiled the previous play through. It lost the depth of the gaming experience.  I didn’t want Alistair to fall in love with my elven girl…he belonged to Elissa Coulsand (in my eyes).  If I had played initially as a female elf, I am sure I would have felt the same bitterness towards him on my second play though as the human noble.  It ruined the illusion, I guess.  I eventually played as every sex and race combination available. But, my crew had no opinions, no discernment.  Leliana and Zevran always hit on me, as would Alistair and Morrigan for their respective sexes. They were there to love the warden, regardless of anything about their history or beliefs or background.  It took the roleplaying part out of it…no matter who I was, the same people would still want to be with me.  It seemed to cheapen the whole romance experience as well as the individuality of my many wardens.  From a roleplaying perspective, it made the origins aspect completely irrelevant.  The same cheesy lines, the same responses = romance.  Blah. 

 

And DA2 was the worst for this.  Anders, Fenris, Isabella…they could give a crap who you were. Fenris loving a mage?  Cmon, really?   So, I played through that game a couple of times and said…meh…who cares…it is the same game every time.  

 

This little rant leads me to the things I have been hearing about the lack of options, or rather, the restrictions of DAI’s romances.  Folks complaining there are not enough bisexual or homosexual or male choices (or any other complaint they can think of). But in my mind, these restrictions will DEEPEN the roleplaying experience tremendously.  For whatever sex and race you choose, there will be a DIFFERENT experience (from the romance perspective).  I plan all playing, once again, all races and all sexes (because I dearly love the DA world and want to play again and again).  But what I am most looking forward to is the very thing that most folks seem to be upset about…the limitations of the romance options.

 

Why is this a bad thing? It makes perfect sense to me.  The preferences of the party are what I think will make this game even more of an amazing experience.  Each warden I make will be truly different, with a different kind of romance for me to explore and enjoy as a player. It makes it WORTH the effort of playing through again and again and again!  No more Alistair drooling over dwarves and mages and humans and elves with the same dialogue choices.  No more feeling like Leliana and Zevran will do whatever with whomever (and please note I am not saying anything against bisexuality. I am talking about the fact that those characters are ALWAYS love interests, which makes it seem completely…UNSPECIAL to whatever origins character I chose to be).

 

Instead, in DAI, each playthrough gives me only a couple of options to choose from, making it seem more…well…real.  For example, here is my prepared lists of playthroughs with my idea for who I will chat up (though they may be modified depending on the other character’s personalities).

 

Female human mage – Cullen, get ready! I have been waiting for you since Origins.

Female elven mage – Solas, let’s go play in the fade!

Female qunari warrior – Blackwell, I am going to curl your beard!

Female dwarven warrior – Sera, talk dirty to me!

Male dwarven rogue – Scribbles, indeed!

Male human warrior – Cassandra, let’s bump shields!

Male eleven rogue – Ahh Dorian…with a mustache like that, who can resist!

Male qunari rogue – So why do they call you Iron Bull?

 

I guess overall, what I am trying to say, is that Bioware has not limited our options…they have expanded our options in a totally cool way.  If there is a character you really want to romance, then you may have to play another sex or race to do it.  Why not?  Isn’t that the point of RPG’s?  To be someone besides yourself?  To see the world from a different perspective.  To…well…play?? 

 

And in terms of romance in video games, think about how far ahead Bioware is.  They have me, a straight woman, EXCITED to play a gay man (because I can’t wait to cuddle up to the maverick mage Dorian).  One of the most important points of all fantasy (and science fiction) literature (and by extension RPGS), is to expand our horizons and make us more aware of differences in others.  To expand what we think of as “like me”. RPGs are where you get to actually be another kind of person! And to be in an age where I can enjoy expanding my own narrow view of human sexuality, in a way that is fun and entertaining for other reasons, is a really amazing thing. 

 

So..thanks Bioware.  Thanks for making your characters have more depth in this new game.  Thanks for giving them personality and different tastes and different sexualities. Thanks for giving me another reason to try to play a game as a different sex or different orientation and making it actually meaningful. Thanks for continuing to create this part to your games, despite the controversy.

 

Oh, and thanks to all of you for reading this terribly long post. I would love to hear your thoughts on this!


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#2
In Exile

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First, I think it's always great to hear people's perspectives on their experience, so that's for sharing. Second, I think it's really cool DA:O brought someone new to the RPG genre - we need that sort of outreach to get the genre fresh.

 

Third, I think your perspective is really interesting. It didn't occur to me how much variability there is in character concepts and LIs, mostly because I have a few I want to take through the games multiple times (e.g. a Qunari Mage/Warrior who's definitely going to siege the Cass-tle gates and pierce through Dorian's witty exterior). 

 

I don't have a plan in advance for who to romance - and if to romance - beyond that. I think it's about an organic experience. 

 

But might I ask - would you feel different about DA:O if the opening flirts were different? That is, if each character had an origin specific ice-breaker, but otherwise the romance went along in a similar way, with a similar culmination, would that matter? 

 

Edit:

To share a reaction, I did find DA:O to be pretty impactful in the romance storyline. Just before the saving Anora sequence, I triggered the Morrigan and Sten troll dialogue (about how qunari have sex, with the hot iron pry bar and all) and one of Morrigan's lines was that "he wouldn't mind" about her hooking up. My HN was really hurt by that, so when Anora comes up, his plan is all.. let's make her jealous by saying I'll be Anora's betrothed. Expect her reaction is all pragmatic, which makes it worse, which makes him want to go through with it, until it comes down to Alistair (his best friend) vs. Loghain, the man who (in his eyes) helped Howe murder his entire family. And so then there was no choice - because petty jealously didn't and couldn't trump friendship. 

 

Then we then DR came along, it was a double-whammy. Morrigan (in my HN's eyes) was so very pragmatic about the whole thing because she knew it couldn't last, because her mission was to get an OGB out of you. Just so happened love wasn't part of the plan. So for him - who never really wanted a family - the DR became the only way to create a lasting tie with Morrigan, who he'd otherwise lose forever. 


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#3
Battlebloodmage

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In the patriarchal society we live in, but a lot of the straight guys wouldn't want to see 2 guys in bed together, maybe lesbians. They may have nothing against gays but wouldn't want to see them have sex. I find that girls have an easier time to accept or tolerate 2 guys or 2 girls sleeping together. You cannot apply your own perspective to everyone. Not just the straight guys, even lesbians and gays who have to hide who they are everything finally have 1-2 games that allow them to be the person they want to be instead of "straight white males with brown haired who are in their 20-30s'" in every single game to just play as other genders. They could, but it would just be another game where they have to play as straight characters. 


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#4
timebean

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But might I ask - would you feel different about DA:O if the opening flirts were different? That is, if each character had an origin specific ice-breaker, but otherwise the romance went along in a similar way, with a similar culmination, would that matter? 

I think one of the major problmes of DAo was that the origin story in general was not very meaningful throughout the game...give the fact that the game is called Dragon Age Origins.  So honeslty, no, that would not have been enough, becuase that whole apsect needed to be improved.  For example, the break up scene.  When alistair calls it off for a female Cousland versus and elf, it should have totally different dialouge.  Even without the tainted blood and short lifewapn, he could NEVER marry and elf as king.  So why not say it?  It would have made it more personal.

 

But it is heard to complain at all about DAO.  It was such an amazing game.  I played it in 2010.  Since then, i have bulit my own PC and have played all kinds of RPGS...from Skyrim to Assains Creeds to Mass Effect.  But nothing, absolutley nothing has compared to Origins and it was becuase of the chracters.  And romance was a big part of that. 

 

I even wrote a fan fiction about it!  I am in my 30s and a scientist!  And I spent months working on a fan fiction of that game for fun.  That is the power of good storytelling...it inspires us to step outside of who we are and try something else!


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#5
Ryzaki

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*sigh*

 

Fenris does not hate mages. He distrusts a lot of them. Heavily. Hawke earns Fenris' trust several times over. Fenris falling for Hawke is over the course of several years of Hawke having his back and supporting him even if they disagree on several matters.

 

(That said the "we're not going to talk about the time we slept together for the next 3 years." was dumb. That I agree.)

 

Even Orana's enslavement can be justified by Hawke being a better choice than her on her own. (It's not like Hawke can canonically do anything cruel to her anyway.) Hawke provides Orana with room and board and protection. It's not pleasant but a lone unskilled elf with no ties to anyone around her? Chances are nothing pleasant awaited her if Hawke had just ditched her.


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#6
Grieving Natashina

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Curse this limited like system!  I love your first post, and it's a refreshing change of topic around here.  

 

Welcome to the forums timebean.  :D


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#7
In Exile

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I think one of the major problmes of DAo was that the origin story in general was not very meaningful throughout the game...give the fact that the game is called Dragon Age Origins.  So honeslty, no, that would not have been enough, becuase that whole apsect needed to be improved.  For example, the break up scene.  When alistair calls it off for a female Cousland versus and elf, it should have totally different dialouge.  Even without the tainted blood and short lifewapn, he could NEVER marry and elf as king.  So why not say it?  It would have made it more personal.

 

But it is heard to complain at all about DAO.  It was such an amazing game.  I played it in 2010.  Since then, i have bulit my own PC and have played all kinds of RPGS...from Skyrim to Assains Creeds to Mass Effect.  But nothing, absolutley nothing has compared to Origins and it was becuase of the chracters.  And romance was a big part of that. 

 

I even wrote a fan fiction about it!  I am in my 30s and a scientist!  And I spent months working on a fan fiction of that game for fun.  That is the power of good storytelling...it inspires us to step outside of who we are and try something else!

 

Just as an FYI, the "Origins" part of DA:O's title came really late in development. It was just called Dragon Age for most of its duration, and at the time the idea of a fixed, in-world background that was (somewhat) recognized was a pretty novel idea. The most recent game to have really tried anything like that before DA:O was NWN2, and it was much more limited. 

 

The difficulty with reactive dialogue - which I agree should be in - is that it's expensive. But that's one of the reasons why I prefer DA:I's approach not to have an actual origin story, but rather race-specific and background specific content throughout the game. Rather than a convo between my elf and her cousin about his finding his future spouse comely, I'd rather that conversation go to specific dialogue between her and Alistair. Or rather than my Mage dealing with Jowan's whining, I'd rather it be dedicated to mage-specific dialogue between him and Leliana. 

 

As to the fan-fiction, don't sweat it. You'd be surprised as to the prominence of some of the posters in this forum IRL and their dedication to this hobby of ours. :)


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#8
timebean

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Curse this limited like system!  I love your first post, and it's a refreshing change of topic around here.  

 

Welcome to the forums timebean.   :D

Thanks!  I read them all the time as I chew my fingernails and wait for the game to come out! :)



#9
Wulfreiks

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I don't really have anything constructive to add to this discussion. I just wanted to express my support for it. Thank you for the post, timebean. It was a pleasant read.

Also....Alistar for the win. They need more characters like him.
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#10
darkmanifest

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Thanks for making your characters have more depth in this new game.  Thanks for giving them personality and different tastes and different sexualities. Thanks for giving me another reason to try to play a game as a different sex or different orientation and making it actually meaningful.

 

I admit I'm confused by this.  You said you were disappointed with the romances in DA:O having "no opinions, no discernment" when you played different characters.  But that hasn't been changed with DA:I, aside from the inclusion of gay characters - we have the same straight and bisexual options as before.  What's the difference between, say, a female PC of any race having access to Alistair, Zevran, and Leliana, and a female PC of any race having access to Blackwall, Josephine, Iron Bull, and Sera? There's nothing new about it, so wouldn't you be in store for the same disappointment if you romance Blackwall in the first playthrough and then he gets all chummy with your new lady in the second one? I'm all for celebrating the romance choices in DA:I, but they don't represent some radical new limitation in how Bioware's DA team does romance, there is no exceptional depth and meaning because we have gay and racegated characters alongside the same straight and bi characters we've had since DA:O.


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#11
Spectre Impersonator

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Meh. I'm not much for limitation.


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#12
dantares83

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To OP: it was quite a good read. 

 

i do agree with some of your views but you know that Iron Bull will be another character that can romance everyone and anyone (regardless of race and gender). so it might dampen your spirits again. Maybe you shouldn't romance Iron Bull at all coz i got a feeling he would just flirt with your Inquisitor, like it or not. 


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#13
Undead Han

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I'm all for gated romances. It serves to make the characters seem more like real people, with their own set of preferences that the main character may not necessarily fall into. Whether its gender, species, or world view...I say bring on the restrictions.


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#14
NoForgiveness

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*starts reading....*

*yawn!!!* oh jeez. Way too long(yes, that is what she said)

#15
Ryzaki

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I admit I'm confused by this.  You said you were disappointed with the romances in DA:O having "no opinions, no discernment" when you played different characters.  But that hasn't been changed with DA:I, aside from the inclusion of gay characters - we have the same straight and bisexual options as before.  What's the difference between, say, a female PC of any race having access to Alistair, Zevran, and Leliana, and a female PC of any race having access to Blackwall, Josephine, Iron Bull, and Sera? There's nothing new about it, so wouldn't you be in store for the same disappointment if you romance Blackwall in the first playthrough and then he gets all chummy with your new lady in the second one? I'm all for celebrating the romance choices in DA:I, but they don't represent some radical new limitation in how Bioware's DA team does romance, there is no exceptional depth and meaning because we have gay and racegated characters alongside the same straight and bi characters we've had since DA:O.

 

Yep. The only race restricted romances are also Cullen and Solas. And I doubt Cullen's going to treat a female elf and a female human *that* differently. So there's 1 completely unique romance with Solas and fem elf and the others will fall in love with multiple variations of the Inquisitor. I for one am not bothered by that. *shrug*

 

I shipped Alistair with my Coulsand, my city elf and my mage elf girl. The romance didn't feel less special because in an alternate universe he'd fall in love with a different race of my female character.

 

If anything I was more annoyed by my dalish elf knowing wtf a Teyrn was and having very similar dialogue to my human noble when it came to politics. Why would she have bothered to learn those things?


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#16
RobRam10

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Is there a short version of the OP? Kinda tired.


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#17
Xilizhra

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Unfortunately, your proposal only works for people who enjoy playing characters significantly dissimilar to themselves. I don't fall into this category, and nor do many others who specifically wanted, say, a lesbian relationship with Cassandra. I would not consider it an unalloyed good, and would in fact venture to say that the cost is higher than the overall benefit.


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#18
CrimsonN7

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I'm all for gated romances. It serves to make the characters seem more like real people, with their own set of preferences that the main character may not necessarily fall into. Whether its gender, species, or world view...I say bring on the restrictions.

 

:ph34r: Class LI restrictions SOON :ph34r:

 

:P

 

But agreed I'm all for the variety in our LI's this time round, like that it has gone back to the DAO model and now with exclusive gay romances too. Characters feel more fleshed out and real in a sense, each has a preference and it adds replay value of course.


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#19
KonguZya

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I agree with some of what you're saying. The options for my female characters look great, lots of variety and some reasonable restrictions. But I'm a straight guy, and I'm not gong to do any gay male romances, which makes options for my male characters very, very limited.

 

You mentioned how you hated having a new character romance, or even be hit on by one of your past LIs. This is exactly why I'm disappointed with having only 2 romances for straight males. Cassandra is great, I've been waiting to romance her since the opening of DA2, and I'm going to love doing so... on the first male character that I play. I really don't want to cheapen that by doing so again and again, which leaves only Josephine, as kind of a "default" option. Honestly I'd be content if straight males had just one more option; Vivienne.  :wub:

 

Mass Effect 2 had three options for males, and three for females. I loved having so much variety, and all just for the one character of Shepard, so different playthroughs could be different in a meaningful way. Out of fairness, I think that there should be three options for straight males, three for gay males, three for straight females, and three for gay females. And there could be a reasonable amount of overlap with three or four of them being bisexual, so that you don't need 12 romanceable companions/advisors.



#20
ComedicSociopathy

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Is there a short version of the OP? Kinda tired.

 

*starts reading....*

*yawn!!!* oh jeez. Way too long(yes, that is what she said)

 

That was very constructive and thought provoking commentary from the both of you. I'm so glad you decided to make your insipid comments know to us all.

 

Anyhow, yes, I agree that gating some romances because of the personalities, back stories and sexuality of the characters is a move in the right direction for Bioware, at least in terms of interesting storytelling. It shows the diverse romantic tastes of the companions your adventuring with and gives a greater distinction to each of them. Solas being only romance-able by female elves gives him extra dimension that we as PC can inquire about. The some thing can be said about Cullen's possible racism towards Qunari and Dwarves or Iron Bull pan-sexuality. Also, I really didn't like DA 2's Hawke-sexuality. Seriously, four of your friends who you meet all by chance are all and bisexual and attracted to humans and/or mages? 


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#21
CuriousArtemis

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That's a very touching story, OP, and one I've heard many times from Alistair-mancers. Unfortunately, it sort of proves why some people are so unhappy with gated love interests. I never got to experience Alistair's romance because it is gender-gated. I tried, really tried, to play a female character and began his romance, but I lost interest almost as soon as I started. If I'd been able to romance him with a male character, I would've been able to have the same amazing experience so many Alistair romance fans have had. Sure, you could say its my own restriction that I place upon myself, but I truly can't help it if playing a certain way is an absolute chore and sucks all the fun out of the game for me. Meanwhile, I get to sit and listen to folks wax poetic about what always sounds to me (as an Alistair-mance outsider) like the greatest romance ever to have existed in a video game ever. 

 

My first RPG was DA2, not DAO. I romanced Fenris with a male Hawke and utterly fell in love with their story, sort of like you and Alistair. Then I romanced him again... and again and again and again! I tried the other three and enjoyed their stories, but it really is all about Hawke and Fenris for me.

 

If Fenris had been gender-gated and only available to females, just like Alistair, I'd have never experienced something that's had such a tremendous impact on me as a gamer. That little Fenris romance inspired me to buy my own gaming console, and now I'm the owner of multiple xbox games... and just recently bought my first gaming PC. 

 

So the story reads differently from player to player. A lot of people do sound like jerks when they complain, for example, about the female love interests not being "pretty enough." I agree; I'll be happy to see the back of those folks. But gated love interests, which open doors for you, close doors for other players. 

 

I'm sure you can see that now ^^


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#22
ComedicSociopathy

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Unfortunately, your proposal only works for people who enjoy playing characters significantly dissimilar to themselves. I don't fall into this category, and nor do many others who specifically wanted, say, a lesbian relationship with Cassandra. I would not consider it an unalloyed good, and would in fact venture to say that the cost is higher than the overall benefit.

 

I'm sorry for you, I really am.  :(

 

I can never understand those who will only play PC's that are similar in personality to themselves or have their same sexuality. That just seems so ironically limiting in my eyes. The Dragon Age series is in the role-playing genre and I just assumed that meant creating and playing characters that, well, aren't you. Isn't more interesting to have a play-through that has a PC that's your complete opposite in ideals, preferences and attitude? Also, just like in real-life you're going to have regrettable situations where someone you want to have a relationship with is going to reject because your not the right sex. It happens. For Bioware to include such instances is in my opinion just another way to create immersion.

 

Not everyone is going to love you romantically just because your Hawke, I mean the Inquisitor. 


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#23
Zjarcal

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Isn't more interesting to have a play-through that has a PC that's your complete opposite in ideals, preferences and attitude?


For some, sure.

For others, nope.

I can sometimes play total opposites of myself but I'm hardly invested in those cases, it's more a "for the lulz" thing.

Also, great post OP, not that I necessarily agree 100%, but it was a good read.

I kinda share the sentiment but about everything in general when creating a second character, everything reacting so similar kinda bugs me, which is why I hardly ever do more than one character in RPGs.

Yes, yes, I'm doing myself a disservice, bla, bla, bla, my game, my rules.
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#24
Inquisitor Julianos

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...the first post was so long it hurt my brain


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#25
Shadow Fox

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I'm sorry for you, I really am.  :(

 

I can never understand those who will only play PC's that are similar in personality to themselves or have their same sexuality. That just seems so ironically limiting in my eyes. The Dragon Age series is in the role-playing genre and I just assumed that meant creating and playing characters that, well, aren't you. Isn't more interesting to have a play-through that has a PC that's your complete opposite in ideals, preferences and attitude? Also, just like in real-life you're going to have regrettable situations where someone you want to have a relationship with is going to reject because your not the right sex. It happens. For Bioware to include such instances is in my opinion just another way to create immersion.

 

Not everyone is going to love you romantically just because your Hawke, I mean the Inquisitor. 

Well even as a guy who plays female toons I inject a bit of myself into my characters.