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Why the romance limitations are a good thing!


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#101
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It's funny how people that see romance limitations as a good thing are mostly people who replay the game a 100 times with all gender/race/class combinations. And yeah, for you these limitations aren't limitations at all because you'll get around to playing the gender/race combo that can romance char X anyway.

 

But let me put this another way: How about if you made a Cousland female rogue before you knew anything about the game and Alistair would only romance elves... now this character and romance that sucked you into the game and was a great story experience for you, just isn't available to you at all and you wouldn't even knew it existed... doesn't sound so fun anymore right?

 

In a perfect world I would prefer the DA2 way in having all romances available. I don't much mind the limitations in DAI since they're there only for sexuality and because romance animations for all races are A LOT of work and resources (I'd rather have Cullen and Solas for some races at least than none at all). However that may greatly be because the limitation just doesn't affect me since I only play female humans and elves and so I get the romances I'm interested in. I imagine it must be much harder for a dwarf or gay PC player who had their heart set on Cullen.

 

I don't think limitations are a good thing or somehow better. They just are. And to someone who only likes playing a certain race or sexuality or only has time to play the game once it definitely isn't a good thing.

The time investment is a good argument against putting gender gates. I am glad that they revealed the options and who they're available for ahead of time for that reason, though.



#102
Br3admax

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Also unpopular opinion, Leliana was better with hazel / brown eyes in DA:I, her previous look was way hotter. Now she has blue eyes, and it isn't as good in my opinion.

 

Why would it be good for Leliana's eye color to radically change from blue to brown? It's better that they changed it back. I wish more things were as consistent. 



#103
Hazegurl

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Those would be awkwardly silent romances then lol

The Free Love Mod I used in Origins simply made Alistair and Morrigan think you are the opposite gender chosen. You still had all the dialouge, romance, sex scenes and otherwise it's just that the gender pronouns are switched.  The sex scenes are all the same too but with your male warden in place of a female. :D

 

Unless you mean the PC's voice.  Well, if it's anything like that mod I would imagine that the voices would remain anyway, maybe add a check to trigger the love scenes or something. I'm no modder so idk. That's why I wait for more talented folks to do it. lol!



#104
Sylvianus

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Why would it be good for Leliana's eye color to radically change from blue to brown? It's better that they changed it back. I wish more things were as consistent. 

 

 

No, it is good that Bioware  remained consistent. But I've seen out there some folks happy that Leliana had blue eyes because she was hotter that way. That's where I disagree. ( At least what I meant  ) It's good that she is close to what she looked like in previous episodes. 



#105
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The Free Love Mod I used in Origins simply made Alistair and Morrigan think you are the opposite gender chosen. You still had all the dialouge, romance, sex scenes and otherwise it's just that the gender pronouns are switched.  The sex scenes are all the same too but with your male warden in place of a female. :D

 

Unless you mean the PC's voice.  Well, if it's anything like that mod I would imagine that the voices would remain anyway, maybe add a check to trigger the love scenes or something. I'm no modder so idk. That's why I wait for more talented folks to do it. lol!

In just removing the gender gate, the love interest themselves would (probably) still speak, but putting in the Inquisitor's voice would be additional hurdle. You'd need to work with the conversation and voice files (this has barely been touched in DA2, even though the tools are technically there), and try to use lines from other scenes. So...I just wouldn't hold my breath.



#106
Hazegurl

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I don't think limitations are a good thing or somehow better. They just are. And to someone who only likes playing a certain race or sexuality or only has time to play the game once it definitely isn't a good thing.

I tried to get my neice into the series before Inquisition. She rolled a female dwarf (doesn't want to play anything else) and wanted to romance Morrigan, she was playing on the console. She finally asked me when will the romance for Morriagn start cause she already invested so much time into her and even had her own roleplay going. I told her only Leliana was open. She hasn't played it since. lol! 



#107
Hazegurl

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In just removing the gender gate, the love interest themselves would (probably) still speak, but putting in the Inquisitor's voice would be additional hurdle. You'd need to work with the conversation and voice files (this has barely been touched in DA2, even though the tools are technically there), and try to use lines from other scenes. So...I just wouldn't hold my breath.

Yeah, but as far as I'm concerned they can go the silent PC DAO approach when it's time to discuss a relationship. I'm not picky, as long as a mod gets me from point a to b.



#108
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Yeah, but as far as I'm concerned they can go the silent PC DAO approach when it's time to discuss a relationship. I'm not picky, as long as a mod gets me from point a to b.

There's also the chance of Inquisitor just having the opposite gender's (the one that was normally allowed to romance them anyway) voice. That was an issue with Sebastian and I think ME3. So silent may not even be possible.



#109
Mad Cassidy

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Meh. Gating is always a fantastic and wonderfully immersive concept when you have access to the options you want. But when your favourite PC is gated out of them for some arbitrary reason, it simply becomes an annoyance. And that's always going to happen unless A ) you don't mind playing every possible character combination, or B ) BW decides to pour unlimited resources into making tonnes of romances. Now, option B is never going to happen, and as for option A, a lot of people have neither the time nor the inclination to play a bunch of different characters just so they can romance someone. Romances are limited enough already without imposing additional hurdles or outright blocks.

 

You may not like that a certain character will romance whomever, because you want that original romance to feel special. But that character isn't designed specifically for you. Gating doesn't add anything to the romance, and it certainly does not add anything for anyone who might get locked out of the romance as a result.

 

And sure, that's my perspective as a consumer. The writers and producers have the right to make their characters however they see fit - that's their prerogative as creators. But it's my hope that if they do create characters who are romanceable, they choose the ones who are open to the largest number of people. The fewer people left out in the cold the better.


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#110
jlb524

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There's also the chance of Inquisitor just having the opposite gender's (the one that was normally allowed to romance them anyway) voice. That was an issue with Sebastian and I think ME3. So silent may not even be possible.

 

There's that plus clipping issues.

 

Mods will be messy at best.


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#111
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Yes. And things like choosing of chins, noses, and foreheads. I can only imagine what putting a male dwarf into Cullen's romance would look like. Very awkward.



#112
Hazegurl

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There's that plus clipping issues.

 

Mods will be messy at best.

Mods are almost always sort of messy depending on the mod. Mods aren't meant to be 100% perfect all of the time. Most just get the job done.  Which is why I'm not picky with them, if it's something I want I'll use it and ignore the flaws as long as I get some of what I'm looking for.



#113
Mad Cassidy

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Yes. And things like choosing of chins, noses, and foreheads. I can only imagine what putting a male dwarf into Cullen's romance would look like. Very awkward.

 

Only about as awkward as any other romance scene involving a male dwarf.


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#114
Mihura

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Gating makes sense when it is close to the story of those characters. And I agree I prefer gating some characters, that is, if everyone as the same change at romance, not all the romances need to be hetero or bi or gay/lesbian but I sure hope to see a good amount of each.

Of course if you gate a romance and that is not even on text or showed in game, what is the point? I hope to see why Cullen and Solas only romances certain people, I also like to read about Sera and Dorian experiences when it comes the heteronormative society that Thedas is. 


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#115
ghostlyrangers

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Why the romance limitations in DAI are a GOOD thing.

 

I know there have been numerous posts about romance options in DA (all games), ranging from overjoyed to angry, but I have yet to see anyone post about the positive aspect of limiting the romance options.  This is a rather long post, but hopefully worth it.

DAO was the first RPG game I ever really played.  A friend loaned it to me when I randomly bought a PS3 to have something fun to do with my younger brother when he visited.  After it sat on my TV stand for weeks, I finally put it in one day to check it out…and then sat in front of my TV for weeks playing it. I had no idea what to expect when I started…so I chose female human rogue and went at it.

 

Having had no prior experience with gaming, I remember very clearly thinking…”Is this Alistair fella…flirting with me?”  I had no idea that romances were even an option when I started, so it was so fun and engrossing to watch the shy little templar get cozy with my rebellious Coulsand lass. And it was awesome for me, because I always assumed video games were all hack and slash.  I had no idea that you could have a lover, and friends, and rivals, and all that jazz.  That is what roleplaying should be! I was so into the whole story…Wynne was like my own mom, Leliana my nutty little sister, and Sten someone I was desperate to get to know and earn his respect.  But my romance with Alistair made it all worthwhile.  My poor Warden, grieving for her brother and hell bent on revenge, meeting a sweet guy who makes her laugh.  Classic love story in the midst of darkspawn and dragons.  Whoopee!

 

When I reached the end, I made him the King. When he broke my warden’s heart, I was…well…heartbroken!  Then Morrigan comes in and I think we’ll all get to live after all. And so I stroll across the hall to man who broke my warden’s heart, prepared to use my high coercion score to convince him. I almost did.  Then, he looks up at me and says “Is this really what you want me to do….are you sure?”  Damn it!  Why did they write him so well???

 

I couldn’t do it. Why?  Because my warden loved that guy. Because I was IMMERSED!  I sacrificed my warden because the relationship I built up with Alistair made the idea of him doing a dark ritual abhorrent to me.   That is the power of the romances in these games.  I basically killed my character after over 100 hrs of gameplay because I didn’t want my love interest to think ill of me!  THAT is why the romances are awesome!  They just…suck you in!

 

So, with the game over, I decided to play through again as a female Dalish elf.  And that’s when the awesomeness died.  I know it sounds silly, but when Alistair started loving up on the elf, I was annoyed.  And then I realized that Zevran and Leliana were once again becoming interested.  It completely spoiled the previous play through. It lost the depth of the gaming experience.  I didn’t want Alistair to fall in love with my elven girl…he belonged to Elissa Coulsand (in my eyes).  If I had played initially as a female elf, I am sure I would have felt the same bitterness towards him on my second play though as the human noble.  It ruined the illusion, I guess.  I eventually played as every sex and race combination available. But, my crew had no opinions, no discernment.  Leliana and Zevran always hit on me, as would Alistair and Morrigan for their respective sexes. They were there to love the warden, regardless of anything about their history or beliefs or background.  It took the roleplaying part out of it…no matter who I was, the same people would still want to be with me.  It seemed to cheapen the whole romance experience as well as the individuality of my many wardens.  From a roleplaying perspective, it made the origins aspect completely irrelevant.  The same cheesy lines, the same responses = romance.  Blah. 

 

And DA2 was the worst for this.  Anders, Fenris, Isabella…they could give a crap who you were. Fenris loving a mage?  Cmon, really?   So, I played through that game a couple of times and said…meh…who cares…it is the same game every time.  

 

This little rant leads me to the things I have been hearing about the lack of options, or rather, the restrictions of DAI’s romances.  Folks complaining there are not enough bisexual or homosexual or male choices (or any other complaint they can think of). But in my mind, these restrictions will DEEPEN the roleplaying experience tremendously.  For whatever sex and race you choose, there will be a DIFFERENT experience (from the romance perspective).  I plan all playing, once again, all races and all sexes (because I dearly love the DA world and want to play again and again).  But what I am most looking forward to is the very thing that most folks seem to be upset about…the limitations of the romance options.

 

Why is this a bad thing? It makes perfect sense to me.  The preferences of the party are what I think will make this game even more of an amazing experience.  Each warden I make will be truly different, with a different kind of romance for me to explore and enjoy as a player. It makes it WORTH the effort of playing through again and again and again!  No more Alistair drooling over dwarves and mages and humans and elves with the same dialogue choices.  No more feeling like Leliana and Zevran will do whatever with whomever (and please note I am not saying anything against bisexuality. I am talking about the fact that those characters are ALWAYS love interests, which makes it seem completely…UNSPECIAL to whatever origins character I chose to be).

 

Instead, in DAI, each playthrough gives me only a couple of options to choose from, making it seem more…well…real.  For example, here is my prepared lists of playthroughs with my idea for who I will chat up (though they may be modified depending on the other character’s personalities).

 

Female human mage – Cullen, get ready! I have been waiting for you since Origins.

Female elven mage – Solas, let’s go play in the fade!

Female qunari warrior – Blackwell, I am going to curl your beard!

Female dwarven warrior – Sera, talk dirty to me!

Male dwarven rogue – Scribbles, indeed!

Male human warrior – Cassandra, let’s bump shields!

Male eleven rogue – Ahh Dorian…with a mustache like that, who can resist!

Male qunari rogue – So why do they call you Iron Bull?

 

I guess overall, what I am trying to say, is that Bioware has not limited our options…they have expanded our options in a totally cool way.  If there is a character you really want to romance, then you may have to play another sex or race to do it.  Why not?  Isn’t that the point of RPG’s?  To be someone besides yourself?  To see the world from a different perspective.  To…well…play?? 

 

And in terms of romance in video games, think about how far ahead Bioware is.  They have me, a straight woman, EXCITED to play a gay man (because I can’t wait to cuddle up to the maverick mage Dorian).  One of the most important points of all fantasy (and science fiction) literature (and by extension RPGS), is to expand our horizons and make us more aware of differences in others.  To expand what we think of as “like me”. RPGs are where you get to actually be another kind of person! And to be in an age where I can enjoy expanding my own narrow view of human sexuality, in a way that is fun and entertaining for other reasons, is a really amazing thing. 

 

So..thanks Bioware.  Thanks for making your characters have more depth in this new game.  Thanks for giving them personality and different tastes and different sexualities. Thanks for giving me another reason to try to play a game as a different sex or different orientation and making it actually meaningful. Thanks for continuing to create this part to your games, despite the controversy.

 

Oh, and thanks to all of you for reading this terribly long post. I would love to hear your thoughts on this!

 

After reading what you wrote here I cant help but to agree with your analysis of the romance. It is something that as I played through (like you with every race) it bothered me that they all had the same reactions to advances from  your character no matter the race or gender, it cheapened the experience as a whole. The option to get your funk on with a paramour of your choosing is a fantastic idea and I thought they had captured the ideal essence of romance in an RPG setting, though after multiple time playing the game the same old options become tedious. 

 

The main thing I wanted to say was thank you for taking the time to write this and to be so passionate about a franchise that I really love, especially when you are sharing what could be seen as an unpopular opinion. I look forward to reading plenty more from you and everyone else who provides a different perspective so we can see both sides of the coin. 


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#116
Savvie

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OP, that was a great post and I agree with most of what you said. I may be in the minority with this, but I prefer this approach to the romances and I hope it turns out well in the story. I think romances will be an on going issue that Bioware will continually revise until they no longer desire to do romances in their games.


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#117
eyezonlyii

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Don't worry I don't like Liara, Garrus ain't my best friend as he's more of a brown noser, Varric is just okay, and Alistair is annoying after a while. So I would say it's fine not to like popular characters. I'll probably not like the companions I'm "supposed" to like in DA:I too.

Have you been looking at my gamer journals? 

 

I see both sides of the limitation equation. On one hand, I do agree that it provides an opportunity for the writers to really flesh out a character, because let's face it, in real life, people have preferences. 

 

On the other hand, my first experience with a Bioware romance was Mass Effect. I didn't know about it when I first started playing, but my friend was further in the game than I was. He was gleefully telling me how his Shepard was hitting it off with Ashley, and how awesome the conversations were. Meanwhile, I had the HUGEST crush on Kaidan. I knew however, no matter how hard I pined, it wasn't meant to be for multiple reasons. So I excused it, headcanoned that Shepard was just too shy, and that as his superior it would have been illegal anyway. 

 

Then I played Dragon Age. Again, I was playing a male character, and again there was romance. Obviously my Warden would be forever alone. And, I wasn't exactly wrong. I mean I know Zevran is beloved by many, but he wasn't my (and my Warden's) type. So when the end game came, and Morrigan offered the DR, I did it mostly because as a player I was attached to my character; not for any investment in the story. 

 

DA:2 brought Anders, and Fenris, and though Hawke romanced Anders, I really wasn't that into it. I mean, Hawke was a mage too, and still thought he was extreme (plus that ponytail was just ugh. That's what sealed the deal really).

 

But then I got to ME3. I had heard about how there would be a male romance for a male Shepard and how Kaidan was coming back. I was so excited, that I put those two things together and had already started planning the galaxy's most elaborate wedding this side of Thessia. All was going well, Kaidan was injured on Mars, I was flirting with him in the hospital, yada yada...

 

And then I met HIM...Lieutenant Steven Cortez. He was gorgeous! He was a minority! He wasn't a stereotype! He was me! And so we had the first conversation. It wasn't until I went down the second time and heard the recording that I thought something was up. When he explained that it was his husband who died...I just, I honestly think I cried a little bit. Because Now here was the character that I had spent the better part of my fifteen years of gaming, and probably twenty years of media intake, wishing and praying to exist somewhere. And he's here. And I'm going after Kaidan. I vowed that on my next playthrough I would come back for Steve. I had too. 

 

What I'm getting at, is that I don't mind the gating of romances, so long as there are options for everyone, and within those options, varying character types as well. Like people are saying in the "Homosexuality in Thedas" thread, there is definitely an interest among m/m romancers for a shining knight type of man, in the vein of Alistair or Cullen. So long as eventually there are multiple representations for various people, I can deal with not having and eating my cake.


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#118
Andir

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i like gating for three reasons;

 

1. it adds depth to the characters. people have preferences and it's cool that these characters are developed enough to have their own.

 

2. it adds representation of all kinds. i'm bisexual and i don't like that people think my sexuality should be included into every character just to make them happy. idk, it just feels weird and icky to me, personally.  

 

3. more romances are added this way! it takes a lot less resources to  include one or two races, or one gender, than to be available to everyone. i highly doubt we would have so many if everyone was bisexual.

 

and awesome story op. i had never thought of it that way before.


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#119
Hanako Ikezawa

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2. it adds representation of all kinds. i'm bisexual and i don't like that people think my sexuality should be included into every character just to make them happy. idk, it just feels weird and icky to me, personally.  

No it doesn't. It just adds Heterosexual, Homosexual, and Pansexual. 



#120
Kenna

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1. it adds depth to the characters. people have preferences and it's cool that these characters are developed enough to have their own.

 

2. it adds representation of all kinds. i'm bisexual and i don't like that people think my sexuality should be included into every character just to make them happy. idk, it just feels weird and icky to me, personally.  

 

Same here!

Also the "what if you made your character, having no idea that the NPC is only interested in certain types and you ain't one- it would suck out all the joy" question. I never check storylines, NPCs, etc. before playing the game as I want to start with a clear head, discover stuff on my own and avoid prejudice. Hence when I played DA:O I had no idea that there will be a romance option available- it just came as a nice surprise. I don't think I would tear my clothes and rip my hair if Ali would not romance my character, as I did not play the game to get romantically involved with the NPCs to begin with. Hell, I went through Neverwinter Nights without realising that you can romance a companion- as I found it easier to just play solo and not have a team at all.  Adding romance is a nice touch, making the game even more interesting, but I never understood people for whom it is the only reason to play DA (or any other RPG).

 

 

 


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#121
Br3admax

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No it doesn't. It just adds Heterosexual, Homosexual, and Pansexual. 

 

Curiosity is getting the better of me; what else are you looking for? 



#122
Andir

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No it doesn't. It just adds Heterosexual, Homosexual, and Pansexual. 

 

i didn't try to imply say every sexuality. : c (it was more of a paraphrase on my part) it's unfortunate that it is this limited now but this doesn't mean that they should stop widening their horizons. maybe one day they will have a character of your sexuality, but this means that we have to keep pushing for it. that's just another reason why defaulting all characters into bisexual/pansexual isn't a good thing. 



#123
boissiere

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Good point. However, the amount of available romances doesn't cover every races and gender.



#124
BartDude52

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I've never understood why some people can't understand people who prefer to (or exclusively) play as a character just like themselves; why is this concept so hard to understand? Not everyone plays RPGs the same way, and there isn't necessarily a right or wrong way to play. I'll use myself as an example:

 

I generally see my characters in RPGs as an extension of myself (that is, me but in a fantasy/science fiction/other fictional setting, so that means same gender, same sexual orientation, same/similar personality etc.), thus this is how I prefer to role-play my characters more often than not. Sure, I've sometimes played as different types of character before (e.g. females instead of males), but I generally don't feel quite the same sort of connection to that character (so to say), than to the characters who are, more or less, just like me.

 

Also, there are just some types of characters that I just can't and/or won't ever play as. A good example of this is in the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic games. I always play as a good/light-sided character. I mean, I've tried a few times to play as a bad/dark-sided character but, in the end, I just can't do it and end up playing as a good/light-sided character again. Some of the things you can say and some of the decisions you can make are just too cruel/evil/mean to me that I can't pick them (my conscience won't let me be that type of character. If I do or say something cruel/evil/mean I'll generally feel really bad/guilty about it and will, more often than not, reload my previous save in order to undo the damage).

 

In addition to being unable to play as a character whose personality is drastically different to mine (especially with regards to ethics/morals), I can't play as a gay male. I can play as a male romancing a female, a female romancing a female, and, to a much lesser extent, a female romancing a male. For me to be able to romance someone in a game, I need to find at least one of the characters in the romance attractive in order to feel properly immersed in the relationship; thus, I can do a male/female, female/female, and a female/male romance arc, but not ever a male/male romance arc because I can't find either character attractive and also won't be able to properly connect to the romance (I'd feel just like some cold observer). Also, the mere act (thought even) of two men even just kissing is extremely repulsive to me (yuck!). I have no problem with those who can go through with this type of romance, I'm just not one of them.

 

Also, in Dragon Age, with regards to class and race, I almost exclusively play as a Human Warrior; I've played as the other classes and races before and, to be perfectly honest, I just don't find them quite as enjoyable to play as.  

 

All in all, I think it's great that there are plenty of people who have no problem playing as different types of characters (whose gender, sexual orientation, race/species, personality etc. may be completely different from their own), more options for you, clearly. However, there are people, like myself, who just can't (or don't like to) do that and would much prefer to play as themselves most of the time. Sure, I realise that I'm maybe limiting myself by doing this, but it is my choice to do so, just like it's also your choice not to play as someone like yourself.


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#125
timebean

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But let me put this another way: How about if you made a Cousland female rogue before you knew anything about the game and Alistair would only romance elves... now this character and romance that sucked you into the game and was a great story experience for you, just isn't available to you at all and you wouldn't even knew it existed... doesn't sound so fun anymore right?

 

 

 

 

Hmmm...you've stumped me there.  It was, to be fair, more than the romance that sucked me in.  But I see your point in the context of my narrative, and don't really have a good answer. Sweet ole Alistair...would the game have been the same without him as my beau? Probably not. 

 

I guess my orginal point was that making each playthrough with different characters mor uniqye is generally a good thing for someone like me who likes to have very different experiences with the same game. And part of that experience in a bioware game is the romance.  In general, I am just looking forward to experiencing the world in many different ways, with different kinds of motivations and relationships to explore, and I feel like the setup with romance limitations urges more folks in that direction. 

 

That being said, from many of the reponses, I see that other folks are playing it in a differentt way and from a different perspective, which is totally cool.  From their point of view, I totally get why the limitations are not great. One guy mentioned that as a gay man, he never got to experience the Alistair relationship in a way that was appealing to him, so...truthfully, that sucks (although there is a mod out there for that, tho I have no idea if it is any good). 

 

Anyway, it was nice to hear what folks had to say about it. After Nov 18th, I amy change my tune.  Ot just let Cullen sing to me.. ;)


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