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[timebean]

 

And then I met HIM...Lieutenant Steven Cortez. He was gorgeous! He was a minority! He wasn't a stereotype! He was me! And so we had the first conversation. It wasn't until I went down the second time and heard the recording that I thought something was up. When he explained that it was his husband who died...I just, I honestly think I cried a little bit. Because Now here was the character that I had spent the better part of my fifteen years of gaming, and probably twenty years of media intake, wishing and praying to exist somewhere. And he's here. And I'm going after Kaidan. I vowed that on my next playthrough I would come back for Steve. I had too. 

BTW...LOVED CORETZ!!!!  That was my first really engaging experience playing a gay character (Zevran was a bit...much, for either my females or males).  Cortez tho....loved him!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Curiosity is getting the better of me; what else are you looking for? 

Other orientations. Andir said it provides all kinds of representation, and yet it only has 4. 

 

i didn't try to imply say every sexuality. : c (it was more of a paraphrase on my part) it's unfortunate that it is this limited now but this doesn't mean that they should stop widening their horizons. maybe one day they will have a character of your sexuality, but this means that we have to keep pushing for it. that's just another reason why defaulting all characters into bisexual/pansexual isn't a good thing. 

You said "It adds representation of all kinds". It does not. It just adds a few. 

I had what appeared to be it. Then Gaider decided to get rid of it for "real representation" and expressed a desire never to do something like it again. 

[BartDude52]

@timebean: I agree with your original post. I think having some restrictions with regards to romance (such as gender and race-gating) can certainly add to a character and make them more fleshed out and more interesting. Also, even though I generally play as the same type of character, having certain romance restrictions at least gives me a reason to actually consider role-playing as a different type of character if I can't romance exactly who I want - if I can have a romance with any of the romanceable characters regardless of gender, race etc. then where would the incentive be to change my character's gender and/or race if I can romance who I want as my preferred gender and/or race? Having everyone be available to you regardless of your gender and/or race just feels cheap if you ask me, the game shouldn't be a dating simulator - you shouldn't always be able to get who you want all the time (the main reason why I personally hated the way the romances were handled in DA2).

[Andir]

Other orientations. Andir said it provides all kinds of representation, and yet it only has 4.


You said "It adds representation of all kinds". It does not. It just adds a few.
I had what appeared to be it. Then Gaider decided to get rid of it for "real representation" and expressed a desire never to do something like it again.

pardon my poor wording choice then. but it can add more as they continue to progress. and isn't adding one or two (bi and pan) still less representation than what they currently include? again, it's a personal thig, by I don't like y sexuality being included as nothing more than a game mechanism. and that is unfortunate. D : do you mean the way they had it in DA2? (sorry for asking questions, just trying to figure more out) if you mean ambiguous and undefined, kind of like merrill (if she was who you were talking about), they should absolutely include a character like that and it should be established that is their sexuality. but making characters all defined bisexuals does no good in working towards that goal, or the goal for other people who are unrepresented. and completley removing gates would do just that. Edit: that is assuming removing gates would make them all bisexual again like in Da2.

[Br3admax]

Other orientations. Andir said it provides all kinds of representation, and yet it only has 4. 

Other orientations isn't giving me a lot to go on. If you mean things like transgender, that's not a sexual orientation. If you mean things like asexual, well, I don't know what you were expecting. 

[CuriousArtemis]

As do I, but I was more warning folks not to expect it any time soon.  I'm sure that modders will find a way, as more games use the engine.  

 

Yeah that's why I'm wavering between no romance or my planned Bull romance for my first playthrough. Problem is, my Bull romance is a Dalish mage, and I really really REALLY want to play a Dalish archer first  

 

But in any case, I plan to play the game that first time then let it sit for a couple years, I guess, until the modders can do their thing *crosses fingers* It's a shame it had to come to this. I'm still not over those two additional straight male love interests.

[veeia]

This argument makes perfect sense if you're playing Dragon Age as a serious roleplayer who finds romance to be a large component of how you RP, enjoy RPing all types of characters, and you have the time and ability to play the game multiple times.

 

That's a fairly limited perspective, to be honest. It's a fine one, and certainly one worth sharing, but it's not one that you can expect other people to share or want to share. 

 

Also, re your last point: you're heterosexual. Because lbr, it's really not a personal growth experience for a lesbian to be exposed to heterosexuality. Do you know what would really be a more radical experience for a lesbian? To be able to experience a wide variety of female romances with wildly different female characters. That is the novelty--instead of being "not me", it's...FINALLY getting to "be me."...or someone like me, someone who isn't more of the all pervasive heteronormativity. 

 

I don't mean this in any harsh way, and I'm not knocking Bioware (too much) for their decisions, but...there is this very strong air of almost paternalism from posts like this of  "I am so sorry for you that you don't see my way of roleplaying", ignoring all the reasons why people might prefer a different style or be upset about the current game. It seems like people can't even be upset--not angry, not hugely critical, not entitled-but just sad, without someone coming along to explain Why This Particular Play style Is Better for Them....and its ehhh..shrug.  I get where you're coming from. I agree with a lot of what your'e saying---for me personally, but I completely respect and understand some of the other people's reservations and disappointments. 

[carlo angelo]

Oh my God, we are doing this song and dance again...

[Mihura]

Other orientations isn't giving me a lot to go on. If you mean things like transgender, that's not a sexual orientation. If you mean things like asexual, well, I don't know what you were expecting. 

 

Well with that way of thinking we would be stuck at hetero romances. There is more to asexuality than "I do not want sex" it is rather short sighted to think that way. I find it funny that the moment someone is represented, people just could care less about the rest. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

pardon my poor wording choice then. but it can add more as they continue to progress. and isn't adding one or two (bi and pan) still less representation than what they currently include? again, it's a personal thig, by I don't like y sexuality being included as nothing more than a game mechanism. and that is unfortunate. D : do you mean the way they had it in DA2? (sorry for asking questions, just trying to figure more out) if you mean ambiguous and undefined, kind of like merrill (if she was who you were talking about), they should absolutely include a character like that and it should be established that is their sexuality. but making characters all defined bisexuals does no good in working towards that goal, or the goal for other people who are unrepresented. and completley removing gates would do just that. Edit: that is assuming removing gates would make them all bisexual again like in Da2.

Yes, I am referring to Merrill being sexually ambiguous, which was what Gaider defined her as until GaymerX this year when he decided to change it to bisexual. For years that is not what he told us. And considering he flat out said he doesn't want to do ambiguity again but rather have "real representation", I'm not very hopeful that a future game will.

 

 

Other orientations isn't giving me a lot to go on. If you mean things like transgender, that's not a sexual orientation. If you mean things like asexual, well, I don't know what you were expecting. 

I was expecting at least as much representation as in previous games. DA2 had the illusion of it(had it until Gaider changed his mind) while DAI doesn't even have the illusion of it 

[eyezonlyii]

I've never understood why some people can't understand people who prefer to (or exclusively) play as a character just like themselves; why is this concept so hard to understand? Not everyone plays RPGs the same way, and there isn't necessarily a right or wrong way to play. I'll use myself as an example:

 

All in all, I think it's great that there are plenty of people who have no problem playing as different types of characters (whose gender, sexual orientation, race/species, personality etc. may be completely different from their own), more options for you, clearly. However, there are people, like myself, who just can't (or don't like to) do that and would much prefer to play as themselves most of the time. Sure, I realise that I'm maybe limiting myself by doing this, but it is my choice to do so, just like it's also your choice not to play as someone like yourself.

 

I'm not meaning to be confrontational at all, but I feel like this is a post that most straight male gamers would agree with. Not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, but have you ever thought of the other side?

 

What I mean is that you (general as in straight male gamers) have always been able to play as yourselves, so you never had the need to try and play as someone else, you did it on a whim. I understand about putting yourself into a every character you play, as I tend to do the same thing, but after awhile it's just depressing to know that you'll never get to see yourself on screen because other people can't even fathom putting themselves in your shoes, even in an arena where it doesn't matter. 

 

I'm wondering how different things will be for those kids growing up now, who will get to see more types of romantic expression everywhere. 

[daveliam]

I'm not meaning to be confrontational at all, but I feel like this is a post that most straight male gamers would agree with. Not that that's a bad thing in and of itself, but have you ever thought of the other side?

 

What I mean is that you (general as in straight male gamers) have always been able to play as yourselves, so you never had the need to try and play as someone else, you did it on a whim. I understand about putting yourself into a every character you play, as I tend to do the same thing, but after awhile it's just depressing to know that you'll never get to see yourself on screen because other people can't even fathom putting themselves in your shoes, even in an arena where it doesn't matter. 

 

I'm wondering how different things will be for those kids growing up now, who will get to see more types of romantic expression everywhere. 

 

Just to run counterpoint to this:  It's because I'm not straight that I will almost exclusively play a gay character now.  After having decades of gaming without being able to play a gay character, I cannot play as a straight person when given the option.  So that greatly limits my rp-ing.  I'm going to try to play as a straight dwarf lady in DA: I so that I can get at Blackwall, but I'm already pretty prepared that I'm going to end up giving up on that playthrough (just like my Lady Hawke and FemShep playthroughs).  If there is the option to be a gay male, I limit myself because I just don't have as much fun otherwise.

 

With races, I just find humans and elves to be incredibly boring races to play.  I always go for dwarf, orc, half-orc, gnome, (and now qunari) if given the option.  So between those two preferences, I'm pretty much locked into gay male dwarf and gay male qunari for DA: I (with one attempt at straight lady dwarf).

[eyezonlyii]

Just to run counterpoint to this:  It's because I'm not straight that I will almost exclusively play a gay character now.  After having decades of gaming without being able to play a gay character, I cannot play as a straight person when given the option.  So that greatly limits my rp-ing.  I'm going to try to play as a straight dwarf lady in DA: I so that I can get at Blackwall, but I'm already pretty prepared that I'm going to end up giving up on that playthrough (just like my Lady Hawke and FemShep playthroughs).  If there is the option to be a gay male, I limit myself because I just don't have as much fun otherwise.

 

With races, I just find humans and elves to be incredibly boring races to play.  I always go for dwarf, orc, half-orc, gnome, (and now qunari) if given the option.  So between those two preferences, I'm pretty much locked into gay male dwarf and gay male qunari for DA: I (with one attempt at straight lady dwarf).

Oh I completely understand, as I am the same way now. I was really just talking about those who never had to think about the way things were because it was always made for/by people like them. I mean, I only did one playthrough of a female Warden to get to Alistair (I can't even remember who she was, as I think I just played to the Romance and stopped for the achievement). 

 

Now I'm depressed because I want Blackwall so hard...

[CuriousArtemis]

I'm going to try to play as a straight dwarf lady in DA: I so that I can get at Blackwall, but I'm already pretty prepared that I'm going to end up giving up on that playthrough (just like my Lady Hawke and FemShep playthroughs).  If there is the option to be a gay male, I limit myself because I just don't have as much fun otherwise.

 

And yet no matter how many times you explain this, someone is always going to come behind you and say, "Stop complaining, it's a role-playing game, just play a different gender, omg." 

 

*throws up hands*

[HiroVoid]

Just play as a different gender if you want to romance someone.

 

Spoiler

.........

[JohnstonMR]

The thing that sticks out for me about the OP's post is that, on the whole, playing a different character doesn't much change the experience.  OK, so in THIS playthrough I'm a man, and I'm romancing Dorian.  How, exactly, is my play experience going to be different when I play as a woman, romancing Blackwall, outside of those two romances?  

The character will be the same.  Your actions may change, but other than plotlines that may go differently, your experience of the character will not change much except in the most superficial of ways.

 

"One of the most important points of all fantasy (and science fiction) literature (and by extension RPGS), is to expand our horizons and make us more aware of differences in others.  To expand what we think of as “like me""

 

Again, how will you actually experience the reality of life as a gay man through the game?  Answer: Unless Bioware has done way more work than I expect, and made Thedas a lot more like Earth, you won't, not really.  

[eyezonlyii]

And yet no matter how many times you explain this, someone is always going to come behind you and say, "Stop complaining, it's a role-playing game, just play a different gender, omg." 

 

*throws up hands*

Because you're limiting yourself. It's not their fault you don't want to experience everything they put in the game. They cooked a full spread meal and people get mad because they only eat the breadsticks.

 

Though I'm a picky eater myself.

[Astelspirals]

sometimes you play thru something and run into a problem near the end of the game that ruins things for you. Origins. my first play thru was a female casteless dwarf. i romanced Leliana. then i met Oghren. and he hit on me so disgustingly that i almost put down the game (i've since played it 7 more times and kicked Oghren out nearly every time). the character made me feel unsafe playing the game. if that could be randomly tossed in there, what else could i expect to find that so mirrored real life experiences? i almost never play a female PC my first play thru of anything anymore because of that. i don't need a video game experience to mirror life - that's not what i'm looking for. 

 

i see video games like moving books (and i love to read). i will sometimes put a book down because i can't handle what is going on in it. it doesn't mean it's a bad book, it just means that there's stuff in there that makes me unhappy.

 

a bit off topic, but it's another insight as to why "just play another gender and divorce yourself from the character" isn't necessarily so easy for some people.

[AlexiaRevan]

One could say instead of putting Gated romance..peoples just RP said those orientation they want.......... I mean , if RP is used to play another gender . Why not make everyone without any sexuality at all . And RP what you want them to be ? 

[Mihura]

Just to run counterpoint to this:  It's because I'm not straight that I will almost exclusively play a gay character now.  After having decades of gaming without being able to play a gay character, I cannot play as a straight person when given the option.  So that greatly limits my rp-ing.  I'm going to try to play as a straight dwarf lady in DA: I so that I can get at Blackwall, but I'm already pretty prepared that I'm going to end up giving up on that playthrough (just like my Lady Hawke and FemShep playthroughs).  If there is the option to be a gay male, I limit myself because I just don't have as much fun otherwise.

 

With races, I just find humans and elves to be incredibly boring races to play.  I always go for dwarf, orc, half-orc, gnome, (and now qunari) if given the option.  So between those two preferences, I'm pretty much locked into gay male dwarf and gay male qunari for DA: I (with one attempt at straight lady dwarf).

 

Agree completely after so many years of playing male and hetero characters, I just find it boring.

 

Funny thing I am not straight either so normally I would go for Sera but somehow I find Blackwall more "cool" but since Blackwall is straight, I am gonna to have too a hard time doing a PT for him and reaching the end. I never do the hetero male character, that one is just to much for me unless it is a set protagonist.

[CuriousArtemis]

Because you're limiting yourself. It's not their fault you don't want to experience everything they put in the game. They cooked a full spread meal and people get mad because they only eat the breadsticks.

 

Though I'm a picky eater myself.

 

Of course I am limiting myself; I only play the game in a way that is FUN and FULFILLING for me. I choose not to play characters and romances that are a chore and make me feel uncomfortable and unhappy. Yes, it is a choice, of course

 

Think of it like this; I'm a vegetarian: they cooked a full spread meal but dumped meat on everything except the breadsticks. Sure, I can choose to eat the huge meatballs but that would make me very uncomfortable and even a little disgusted (okay, a lot disgusted lol!) so I "choose" to eat just the breadsticks.

 

Also, I'm not mad at the devs, just disappointed that things turned out the way they did. 

 

I am only mad and frustrated with people who are not understanding (and even downright rude) towards those who play the game differently than they do.

 

I don't play the game the same way the OP did but s/he was very polite and friendly and I fully respect the way s/he plays the game. That's different from me but cool. It worked out for the OP this time but not for me. All I can do is keep voicing my opinion in a respectful manner and hope the devs move more in my direction *shrugs*

[CuriousArtemis]

One could say instead of putting Gated romance..peoples just RP said those orientation they want.......... I mean , if RP is used to play another gender . Why not make everyone without any sexuality at all . And RP what you want them to be ? 

 

You mean like DA2? While I don't think the DA2 companions had no sexuality, I think you could RP their sexuality, which I was totally fine with. They are characters, not real people. And that works out best for me, and it's what I hope DA4 does (but I'm not holding my breath).

 

However, there are people who say they felt insulted as bisexuals with the way DA2 was set up, and I fully respect that. Also we can't underestimate the importance of having characters like Dorian and Sera; they mean a LOT to some gay and lesbian gamers. On the other hand, do I think we really needed three straight men, no lol 

[timebean]

 

 

"One of the most important points of all fantasy (and science fiction) literature (and by extension RPGS), is to expand our horizons and make us more aware of differences in others.  To expand what we think of as “like me""

 

Again, how will you actually experience the reality of life as a gay man through the game?  Answer: Unless Bioware has done way more work than I expect, and made Thedas a lot more like Earth, you won't, not really.  

Ahh...yes, I can see where I sounded like a bit of moron with that one, and you are right on that score.  I have no idea what it is really like to be a gay man and never will, nor do I think RPGs are the medium to really help with that one.  However, I do believe that mediums like movies and games and television expand acceptance, if not understanding. A perfect example...my father were make slurs against gay people when I was young (ie, in the 80s).  Then, Will and Grace came on NBC.  He would initally sit and watch it and rant at it.  Then he grew to like it (he thought Jack was funny). And watch it all the time along with whatever else was on (we were a big-time sit around the TV family).

 

It was a slow and subtle change, but having more homosexuality in popular media worked a remarkable change in man that grew up with opprresive and backwards ideas. He changed...for real.  He is now very accpting of my gay friends and family members.  More than accpeting...it just doesn't mean anything to him an more. He doesn't make comments, he doesn't get uncomfortable.  It just is the world around him and he is a more accepting person now.

 

I guess my point is...having gay-only or straight-only charcters means that if I want to explore a romance, I may have to try something new. It may not mean much in terms of real understanding of anyone else, but it helps me grow in my own mind...to exand what I am comfortable with (whihc is the point I was trying to make in that quote).  To...frankly, chill the hell out about all of it and realize that love is love and roleplay is a medium to try a new perspective on for size.

 

Anyway, once again, I am not interested in giving offence.  If I did, then a true apology to any who thinks me a shallow person, etc.

 

Cheers!

[JohnstonMR]

You mean like DA2? While I don't think the DA2 companions had no sexuality, I think you could RP their sexuality, which I was totally fine with. They are characters, not real people. And that works out best for me, and it's what I hope DA4 does (but I'm not holding my breath).

 

However, there are people who say they felt insulted as bisexuals with the way DA2 was set up, and I fully respect that. Also we can't underestimate the importance of having characters like Dorian and Sera; they mean a LOT to some gay and lesbian gamers. On the other hand, do I think we really needed three straight men, no lol 

As a bisexual, I was fine with it.  I didn't consider those characters to be Bi at all.  They were whatever sexuality complimented my PC. 

[JohnstonMR]

 

Anyway, once again, I am not interested in giving offence.  If I did, then a true apology to any who thinks me a shallow person, etc.

 

Cheers!

 

No offense at all taken here, and I get what you meant now.