207 réponses à ce sujet

[veeia]

daveliam, that's so cool to hear! I mean I am always going to have reservations on how much I believe any specific company's assertions of wanting to include diversity are going to actually be implemented, but it is great to hear stuff like that. I love how much easier it has become to have dialogues with people about these issues and have your voice actually heard . I don't talk to many game devs, I'm a baby here, but the accessibility and openess of comics people blows my mind.

[AlexiaRevan]

In terms of characterization though... race- and class-gating add more depth than gender-gating. I mean... Fenris likes girls instead of boys... aaaand? Doesn't really add anything to his character. But how about: Fenris refuses to romance a mage and is harder to romance with a human than an elf. That's way more interesting.

Hey Artemis........it just occured to me , you and I are on the same though about charachter !  We should write a fanfic together   

[carlo angelo]

Agreed on both counts:  1.)  Handsome knight in shining armor is awesome and I want a gay version, please; and 2.) Since they decided that the protagonist has to be straight, despite putting forward an air of "you can be whoever you want through your choices", I've also decided to vote with my wallet on that one. 

 

Sidenote:  I emailed the company to express my disappointment that they didn't offer s/s options in that game and one of the community managers emailed me back very quickly (within a day, if I recall correctly).  She was awesome and said that they had gotten alot of feedback similar to mine and they were currently in development with another game that would offer romances and they were committed to have s/s options in that game based on customer feedback.  So that makes me feel a million times better.  If they make good on that offer, I'll probably pick up both the new game and Bound by Flame (on a discount, natch).

I think the reason why I haven't gone completely insane from wanting such things is because I pretty much make up my own fantasy.

 

I mean, I feel like I have to, because if I just depend on every little medium for my desire to see some semblance of what makes a part of me in stories, I won't have much to work with. Sure, Bioware's ahead of the pack and I'm grateful so, I can pretty much put my storyteller to rest for a bit, but I find I'll always retreat back into my burrow and write and draw for myself again.

Spoiler

Personal segway here, but this is the main reason why I'm in an animation degree, currently in my honours year. I've picked out on researching queer protagonists in comics. The project is a webcomic and I've got a... well, not quite a knight, but he's a tank by some standards.

 

Anyway!

 

I think that's great that the community manager responded to your concerns in timely way. And I'll pretty much believe that the gaming company will have a look into that, now especially since Bioware's set the benchmark. However, the really cynical part of me thinks that they'll probably only go part way. I just have my doubts and I tend to expect the worst so the disappointment won't sting so much.

 

 

You think so? I want to hope for that. If Dorian is noble and chivalrous that would go a long way towards encouraging me to romance him. 

I think so. I'm hoping so, at least. But I haven't made any concrete judgments on how the romances- any of them, will play out. But, I'm hoping in light of past examples when it comes to same sex romances in mainstream media that it won't be so tragic. I don't think it will, I suppose, because in recent years, things have been looking up.

[ZerioctheTank]

I totally understand people who make characters who's morality aligns with their own, I think most players do that , to some extent. At least on their canon playthrough.

What I don't understand is people who literally make every character an avatar of themselves. Right down to their appearance, race, sexuality etc. I can see the appeal of doing it for one playthrough, or even a few. Not every single time though, when a game gives me options I am compelled to explore them. I'd get seriously bored rolling the same character time and time again.

I was hoping the gender/race gating would encourage players to experiment playing different types of characters, but it seems people are too stuck in their ways to even entertain the idea.

I disagree with people saying that the race/gender gating is forcing limitations upon the gamers. All of the options ARE available to every single player. It is us players limiting ourselves by choosing to only play as a specific type of character.

Do you really think everyone here is putting as much of a focus on roleplaying as you are? I can speak for myself and say that I did not get into DA for roleplaying. I came for the strategical combat. I wanted to tank lol. When I saw the taunt icon on the DA2 demo I bought the game later that day. When I roleplay I do have the character act like I would because that is my own form of immersion. My hawke looked like me with a few slight tweaks here & there. If I were to make a character that lacked any personal traits of me I can't do it. I don't want to play some character with a predetermined personality based on a romance but this is my opinion.

I romance characters based on my preference as a bisexual male. In Da:o Zevran & Morrigan just were not my type. They were great characters but Leliana was special in my eyes. DA2 had IMO the worst selection period. Luckily for me Isabella was available to save from the disasters of Anders & Fenris. DA:I finally has a character that I'm very excited for and that is the Iron Bull. All joking aside I have a preference for strong, alpha males. I could go on & on about how sexy that is to me but the fact that IB is a romance option for both female & male Inquisitors just makes me ecstatic.

I think romance limitations make the characters more real. I recall looking at the difference between a love scene in ME3 with Kaidan and Shepard. FShep got to saddle herself up while MShep got the fade to black screen before it. I want the full experience so if I have to be race/sex restricted then I'm all for it. Besides we have fanfiction for everything else.

[CuriousArtemis]

Hey Artemis........it just occured to me , you and I are on the same though about charachter !  We should write a fanfic together 

 

I noticed Yeah let's get on that

[eyezonlyii]

I think the reason why I haven't gone completely insane from wanting such things is because I pretty much make up my own fantasy.

Personal segway here, but this is the main reason why I'm in an animation degree, currently in my honours year. I've picked out on researching queer protagonists in comics. The project is a webcomic and I've got a... well, not quite a knight, but he's a tank by some standards.

 

 

When you finish I would like a link to view/purchase or whatever. that sounds cool.

[CuriousArtemis]

I think so. I'm hoping so, at least. But I haven't made any concrete judgments on how the romances- any of them, will play out. But, I'm hoping in light of past examples when it comes to same sex romances in mainstream media that it won't be so tragic. I don't think it will, I suppose, because in recent years, things have been looking up.

 

Gosh, if he sweeps my PC off his feet then I may, just may, forgive the mustache!

[CuriousArtemis]

Sort of OT, but Carlo, I'm sure you're aware of Alex Woolfson and E.K.Weaver; I'm a huge fan of Artifice and TJ and Amal

[carlo angelo]

When you finish I would like a link to view/purchase or whatever. that sounds cool.

Uhm... I'll PM you some progress shots... but thank you!

 

 

Sort of OT, but Carlo, I'm sure you're aware of Alex Woolfson and E.K.Weaver; I'm a huge fan of Artifice and TJ and Amal

Oh, yes, Alex Woolfson! He's included in my exegesis. Mainly dealing with webcomics.

[Battlebloodmage]

Fan tears are always delicious OP. Also reliability.
 

Next!

I'm sorry that you feel persecuted over the internet.

[Br3admax]

Well with that way of thinking we would be stuck at hetero romances. There is more to asexuality than "I do not want sex" it is rather short sighted to think that way. I find it funny that the moment someone is represented, people just could care less about the rest. 

Actually not what I said at all. What I did say is that I don't know how you expected it to be represented. I also wasn't talking only about asexual people. Way to strawman. 

[Shadow Raziel]

Meh, that's life. As a  hetrosexual male. I will just pick out the straight female I hit it off with the best. and romance her. and not worry about why I cannot romance the other females. I remember back to the Baldur's gate Shadows of Amn days. I had choices, but in the end I chose Jaheira and never looked back. I may play through a couple times. but not for the romance options, but for the morality options. Really, I think this type of format is a better reflection of how people really are. many of us have our boundaries, and preferences whatever they may be.

[Marlena_8]

Timebean, thank you for sharing your thoughts; I honestly had not thought about how the LI's being open to all and sundry could cheapen the experience for additional playthroughs, and I guess I can see how one could feel that way. 

 

As a female, I prefer playing males; I guess I just like playing something different from myself but my males tend to have my taste so they tend to like the gents.  I guess a lot of why I like writing or playing male characters is that I kind of write or play the characters that I personally crush on and then I like them to have a chance at romance with an equally crushable gent.  In fairness, I have not played DAI so I can't really say that I will dislike IB or Dorian, my only choices for my gentleman Inquisitors to romance, but so far on the surface and what I'm reading about IB being ready to jump into any bed and Dorian being particular about his wardrobe... *sigh* I worry that I'll just be going through a romance I don't particularly care for; The choices seem limited in that regard.  Like everyone else, I beg, gimme a knight! I'm hoping that Dorian's story will stir my heart ( I expect it to) and will make me fall for him.  But who would my male inquisitors probably really want a chance at?  Blackwall!  But I would have to play a female to romance him and I'm actually contemplating that as my first run through but I'm hoping I am not forcing myself to play in a way that makes me enjoy the experience less.  My first run through is a big decision because this is a much bigger game - who knows how long it will be to get to romance, let alone finish the game.  It's a decision I will wrestle with until the moment I start to create my first Inquisitor.

[Hazegurl]

@Marlena_8, I agree. My biggest issue with the gender gating is that I just don't trust the BW Dragon Age team to give me a decent LI for the character type I enjoy playing (Gay/bisexual male).  DAO, we had Zevran, the promiscuous bisexual. Who prefers women and was raped into liking men. In DA2, there was Isabella, the promiscuous bisexual. At least this time you could choose two guys sans diseases and a ditzy elf chick.  Now in DAI we've got....another promiscuous bisexual.    And the only choice is either polishing my toenails with Mr. stache or flying solo, which is looking better and better when I think about it. Cassandra is looking good so I might romance her but I like playing a**holes so she and I may clash.

 

Looks like I have to wait until ME4 for a good well rounded male LI. So far no one compares to Kaidan Alenko and Steve Cortez

 

Seriously, where are the straight promiscuous companions?? 

[HiroVoid]

Do we know if Sera's promiscuous?

 

Also, Oghren was pretty promiscuous.

[Hazegurl]

Ah yeah Oghren...but do we know he was even getting any? Except from that one woman he had in DAO? Unless he visited whorehouses. lol! Also we weren't romancing him.

 

As for Sera, I forgot about her, probably cause I have no interest in her character. lol! Sorry Sera fans   

[HiroVoid]

Whoops.  Forgot Sera was lesbian instead of bisexual.  I think I was thinking more fun loving rogue characters than bisexual.

 

Uh....every character in DAII aside from Isabella than.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

Do we know if Sera's promiscuous?

No..but we her fans are.............

[CuriousArtemis]

Sera... you know I was really interested in romancing Sera, but I recently played through ME2, and it was suddenly hitting me how... young... Tali and Jack seem. And I used to want to romance them. But now the thought of doing so disturbed me. And I'm tentatively placing Sera in that category. 

 

Must be gettin old! 

[In Exile]

Do we know if Sera's promiscuous?

 

Also, Oghren was pretty promiscuous.

I found Oghren to be amazing, in that he was the single most repulsive character I've ever encountered in a game. I mean, there were other characters that obviously physically were repulsive, or had outrageous evil caricature of a personality that was just disgusting, but Oghren has the distinction of being a believable person and simultaneously amazingly repulsive in personality. 

[CrimsonN7]

Sera... you know I was really interested in romancing Sera, but I recently played through ME2, and it was suddenly hitting me how... young... Tali and Jack seem. And I used to want to romance them. But now the thought of doing so disturbed me. And I'm tentatively placing Sera in that category. 

 

Must be gettin old! 

 

Sera's age doesn't bother me all that much, then again I'm in my 20's sooooooo.  

[dgcatanisiri]

I didn't mind the race-gating stuff so much, given that there are racial conflicts in universe. Hell, the human-elf conflicts have been happening for ages, if she hadn't been announced as a lesbian, I would absolutely have believed Sera as being completely unattracted to humans because of the things humans have done to elves, I could see how Solas would only want another elf for similar reasons, and the qunari are so visually different to the other races, they can easily be seen as truly alien, which makes them it an understandable hurdle for these characters. I don't mind those as much. In general, I'm against any limitations, but this one at least I can accept, if reluctantly.

 

It's the sexualities that get to me. I'm a firm believer in romances being bi-unless-gay (since gay characters are few and far between). It has always made the most sense to me, to allow all the romances to romanced by anyone of any gender. Like I said, I'm against these limitations in the first place, in large part because in the past, options for a same-sex romance are limited - in Jade Empire and DAO, there was one option for a same-sex romance. If I didn't like him, I had no romance, and that happened in Origins. Zevran's initial attitude, the way he acts in the beginning stages of the romance, actively push me away. I have to make myself go through it. The more uphill battle it is for me to engage in content, the less I want to play it. This happened too when I tried playing a female Warden - I'm disconnected because of the struggle of the early parts of the game, so adding the disconnection of a very visible reminder that the character I'm playing is not my own gender... I couldn't get through it. If I'm not enjoying my experience in playing the game, I do not want to play it.

 

In point of fact, it's not the same to just 'play a female character' to romance someone I prefer. There is a different dynamic in play when it comes to male/female and male/male and female/female relationships, not to mention that, especially with the voiced protagonist, it's not even like you can pretend that the character you're playing is actually the other gender, don't pay any attention to the fact that they don't actually look like it. There are also cases of how playing as a PC of a different gender or sexuality can cause extreme discomfort in players - I know of many trans players who don't ever want to play as one gender PC because of the feelings of dysphoria that it triggers in them. Because I get the option in the game to actually play as a male who can romance other men, I don't particularly want to play as a female character in order to romance a male character. Except if I want to try out the other three male options in Inquisition, I'm going to have to. That bothers me.

 

It also doesn't help in Inquisition's case that it was pushed as having 'the most romances ever' that I'm getting only two options of compatible orientation, which is no more than I had in DA2 or ME3. I'm interested in Cullen and Solas as romance options, but I would be required to play in a way that I do not enjoy to try them out. I don't like feeling like I'm being 'punished' for having a preference for a certain play style and wanting to stick to it. (Not that it's the intent of the developers, of course, but we're talking about feelings here.)

 

I see it as a matter of giving people the most options - people want to make a big deal out of 'oh, they're reacting to the player's interest and aren't REAL bisexuals, just PLAYERSEXUAL.' The thing is though, ALL romances options are ALWAYS playersexual. You can make a PC who is ugly as sin and you can get a LI option to call them the most beautiful person they've laid eyes on. Are you saying that visual attraction plays no part in wanting to be with someone? For these characters, their sexualities aren't something they particularly choose to make a big deal out of - Isabela openly flirts with either gender Hawke. Anders will be attracted to Hawke regardless of gender so long as they're nice to him. Fenris and Merrill are both characters who require explicit prompting in order to be willing to flirt at all because they're both introverted, they wouldn't take the first step on their own. In universe, sexuality is not the big deal it is in our world, so to them, it's like... I don't know, blood type would be to us - they're aware of it, but what reason would they have to go shouting it from the roof tops? So why NOT give the most content to the players, allow their gender not to be an issue in romancing characters?

[Vita Brevis]

What I don't understand is people who literally make every character an avatar of themselves. Right down to their appearance, race, sexuality etc. I can see the appeal of doing it for one playthrough, or even a few. Not every single time though, when a game gives me options I am compelled to explore them

 

Yeah, but the truth is, in all previous games (at least), those so-called options meant nothing. Because lets be honest, in the end of the day does it really matters that much all those little choices you had to make? You still had 2 endings, no matter what you've been doing the whole time. And it also goes for the quests. I mean, WHAT'S there to explore - you either kill someone, ignore them, or help them. And that's it. And I don't want to kill the bunch of elves of a bunch of mages just to see what'll happen. I already can tell what will happen - nothing will really change, except for the fact that you'll lose some approval points from some companions. And who's gonna be a douche and lose all companions just because he wants to see what will happen? Certainly not me. 

 

Maybe, maybe DAI will be different, but both previous games gave me nothing but an illusion of a choice. 

It's not woth time playing again just because of that. It's dull. It's pointless. I don't want to see the consequences of the unpleasant choices I made just to see how it will change the outcome of a story. 

[lduchek]

I didn't mind the race-gating stuff so much, given that there are racial conflicts in universe. Hell, the human-elf conflicts have been happening for ages, if she hadn't been announced as a lesbian, I would absolutely have believed Sera as being completely unattracted to humans because of the things humans have done to elves, I could see how Solas would only want another elf for similar reasons, and the qunari are so visually different to the other races, they can easily be seen as truly alien, which makes them it an understandable hurdle for these characters. I don't mind those as much. In general, I'm against any limitations, but this one at least I can accept, if reluctantly.

 

It's the sexualities that get to me. I'm a firm believer in romances being bi-unless-gay (since gay characters are few and far between). It has always made the most sense to me, to allow all the romances to romanced by anyone of any gender. Like I said, I'm against these limitations in the first place, in large part because in the past, options for a same-sex romance are limited - in Jade Empire and DAO, there was one option for a same-sex romance. If I didn't like him, I had no romance, and that happened in Origins. Zevran's initial attitude, the way he acts in the beginning stages of the romance, actively push me away. I have to make myself go through it. The more uphill battle it is for me to engage in content, the less I want to play it. This happened too when I tried playing a female Warden - I'm disconnected because of the struggle of the early parts of the game, so adding the disconnection of a very visible reminder that the character I'm playing is not my own gender... I couldn't get through it. If I'm not enjoying my experience in playing the game, I do not want to play it.

 

In point of fact, it's not the same to just 'play a female character' to romance someone I prefer. There is a different dynamic in play when it comes to male/female and male/male and female/female relationships, not to mention that, especially with the voiced protagonist, it's not even like you can pretend that the character you're playing is actually the other gender, don't pay any attention to the fact that they don't actually look like it. There are also cases of how playing as a PC of a different gender or sexuality can cause extreme discomfort in players - I know of many trans players who don't ever want to play as one gender PC because of the feelings of dysphoria that it triggers in them. Because I get the option in the game to actually play as a male who can romance other men, I don't particularly want to play as a female character in order to romance a male character. Except if I want to try out the other three male options in Inquisition, I'm going to have to. That bothers me.

 

It also doesn't help in Inquisition's case that it was pushed as having 'the most romances ever' that I'm getting only two options of compatible orientation, which is no more than I had in DA2 or ME3. I'm interested in Cullen and Solas as romance options, but I would be required to play in a way that I do not enjoy to try them out. I don't like feeling like I'm being 'punished' for having a preference for a certain play style and wanting to stick to it. (Not that it's the intent of the developers, of course, but we're talking about feelings here.)

 

I see it as a matter of giving people the most options - people want to make a big deal out of 'oh, they're reacting to the player's interest and aren't REAL bisexuals, just PLAYERSEXUAL.' The thing is though, ALL romances options are ALWAYS playersexual. You can make a PC who is ugly as sin and you can get a LI option to call them the most beautiful person they've laid eyes on. Are you saying that visual attraction plays no part in wanting to be with someone? For these characters, their sexualities aren't something they particularly choose to make a big deal out of - Isabela openly flirts with either gender Hawke. Anders will be attracted to Hawke regardless of gender so long as they're nice to him. Fenris and Merrill are both characters who require explicit prompting in order to be willing to flirt at all because they're both introverted, they wouldn't take the first step on their own. In universe, sexuality is not the big deal it is in our world, so to them, it's like... I don't know, blood type would be to us - they're aware of it, but what reason would they have to go shouting it from the roof tops? So why NOT give the most content to the players, allow their gender not to be an issue in romancing characters?

I agree with this. I am a lesbian and I like to play as a lesbian. I am not fond of all the labels though. I really don't understand why in a game you can't romance whoever you want to. If it doesn't affect a plot line adversely, what difference does it make (beyond more programming for the developers, and dialog changes to reflect the differences in sex)? I always get disappointed that usually the characters I am most interested in aren't available to my character. I was fascinated by Cassandra and Vivienne, and then very disappointed to find neither would be available to a lesbian character. And no offense to the guys, it is different being one sex and trying to play the other. I don't feel the way a man would or react the same way, so the dialog choices are often frustrating. It is way too difficult to get invested playing a character of the opposite sex . I am a gay woman and I wish to play as a gay woman and romance the woman of my choice in a game.   Maybe one day, it won't matter who romances who.

[House Lannister]

Just saw this. Fantastic post OP.