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Attributes, persuasion and the inability to unequip - a net loss for character customization?


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#1
Ieldra

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Let me first say that I'm not "up in arms" about this, nor do I think these things will have a significant adverse effect on my enjoyment of DAI should the other aspects be fine. Also, there may not be a significant loss in the overall degrees of freedom. However, the plain fact is that customization options have been moved away from the character, and we no longer have the option to walk unarmed or to be inconspicuous by appearing to be "civilian" (compared to DAO). To illustrate how this impacts the way we relate to our characters, and thus how this may feel while playing, consider the combination effect of these changes:

 

*In their intrinsic ability to convince people, all characters of the same class and race are identical.

*in intrinsic character traits traditionally seen as fundamental, on which many other traits used to be built, all characters of the same race and class are identical.

*In the type of weapons and armor they use, all characters of a class are restricted to one or two archetypes, and in the decisions about where to go armed or unarmed, all characters are identical.

 

The combined "felt" effect of these changes is unfortunately rather drastic. There may be things that make up for it, but the first impression is one of loss. In order to evaluate this further, let's go into the details:

 

(1) Attributes

 

As I mentioned, attributes have been traditionally used as a fundament for other aspects of character customization. In early tabletop RPGs, they determined what class you could play, and later, they were chosen in order to benefit a specific class. Either way, they were an important way to make our characters unique. Even in games as late as DAO, they influenced what you could learn in many different ways.

 

In DAI, they do not have that role anymore. Basically, attributes are irrelevant except as they influence combat. In that, we may now even be more variable than before, because attributes are now more influenced by equipment and we can change equipment to create different configurations. Since learning of skills does not depend on attributes any more, this results in an overall increase in the degrees of freedom when playing the game. However, equipment is not a part of our characters, and now that all variables are external to the character and all characters remain unrestricted by individual attribute allocation with regard to what abilities they may learn, this results in a net loss of ways to make our characters unique.

 

I find it hard to evaluate if these things have ever really been that important in the past (speaking only of DA games), or if this was an illusion and my choices were so much determined by my class that this new system just canonizes what people did anyway, except for minor variations. I don't know how this will feel in the actual game, but it feels different from here and requires a significant mental switch to adapt to from the old mindset of "attributes are the fundamentals of your character". Also, that customization options are moved from character to equipment creates an unfortunate vibe of "what you have is more important than who you are".

 

(1) Persuasion / Coercion

 

This, too, is not part of our character anymore. Instead, we get Inquisition perks that serve the same purpose in addition to a few other things. Now, I'm absolutely thrilled by the perk system and the ways we can shape our organization, and yet again, this may result in an increase of the overall degrees of freedom for the player. However, again a customization element is moved away from the character, creating a rather odd mixed impression of "the player's gain is the character's loss". 

 

From a design point of view, not having similar options for both the organization and the character makes sense because this would reduce the impact of either, and Bioware has made the decision to give the organization customization at the character's expense. I tend to think we'll be fine with it, but it is still a net loss for shaping the character as a person, and people have to adapt to the fact that they're roleplaying the Inquisition as an expression of who their Inquisitor is. 

 

(3) Fixed weapon configurations and the inability to unequip

 

What is a mage? DA2's and DAI's answer is clearly "the people with the twirling staffs". The rogue is "the one with the bow" or "the one with the twin daggers". About the decision to implement such a restriction, I would like to know the rationale because unlike the abovementioned aspects, there isn't anything that can make up for it. We walk everywhere as the same archetype and can't even choose to appear "civilian". There is no way to spin this as being in any way desirable.

 

This may be a case of "people never do this anyway", but as a Bioware representative has said about dialogue options, even an option only used by 1% of all players increases the degree of freedom for everyone. There may be technical reasons for the restriction, in which case I'd like to know of them. Whatever the reason, this was a medium-level annoyance for me personally in DA2 because it creates the impression that gear is an inseparable part of your character. My preferred playstyle, especially as a mage, is to be as independent of equipment as possible. About the inability to unequip, I'm likely to forget about it while playing.....until some minor detail reminds me that a mage shouldn't be  married to their staff, or the next time I visit a town and don't want to walk around as if everything was a threat. Also, since in reality, characters do remove their weapons occasionally, this is also an immersion-breaker. In DA2, Hawke was appropriately unarmed while in their house. So why can't this be a choice anywhere else?

 

 

As I said, none of these things are critical flaws in my view, and some are made up for by added options in other areas. I understand, however, that people are slow to accept them because they're a net loss in an important aspect of roleplaying, even as they're possibly a net gain overall with the exception of the last point.


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#2
Kantr

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how do you know we can't un-equip?



#3
Ieldra

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how do you know we can't un-equip?

I don't have the source, but a developer was quoted as "A warrior will always have a default shield even if you unequip everything you have". There was no explicit mention of other classes being different, but it wouldn't make sense if this was a warrior-only restriction, and it was the same in DA2.

 

I suspect that we may go unarmed to certain locations or events such as the Orlesian ball, but we won't have a choice about it anywhere else (or even there).



#4
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#5
Vapaa

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I absolutely don't care about what customization aspect is tied to my character or not, what interests me is what I have at my disposal, as a player.


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#6
dantares83

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no, you can customize your characters. I saw people changing armour for Varric.

 

I suppose Varric's Bianca would not be able to unequip coz it is his signature. 

 

And the attributes thingy, we should play the game before commenting. alot of games do not allow you this anyway.



#7
The Elder King

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no, you can customize your characters. I saw people changing armour for Varric.
 
I suppose Varric's Bianca would not be able to unequip coz it is his signature. 
 
And the attributes thingy, we should play the game before commenting. alot of games do not allow you this anyway.

You can equip Varric with daggers.
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#8
Ieldra

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no, you can customize your characters. I saw people changing armour for Varric.

 

I suppose Varric's Bianca would not be able to unequip coz it is his signature. 

 

And the attributes thingy, we should play the game before commenting. alot of games do not allow you this anyway.

I don't mean "change". I mean "unequip", Remove the staff, or the daggers etc. completely

 

Having said that, it's quite possible that the restriction is only "if you have a one-handed weapon equipped, you always have a shield", and it's possible that the ability to unequip both exists. That needs to be clarified.

 

About the attributes, you may notice I didn't say it was an overall downside. DA never did a lot with the attributes that I'd miss, except for gating Coercion. Still, it takes a customization option away that they might have used in various ways, rather than focusing on equipment.



#9
Ponendus

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I agree with you OP. Most of those things are pretty important things to take out of a DA RPG. If there is a reason, fine, if not, I don't get why on earth one would.



#10
Eudaemonium

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However, equipment is not a part of our characters.

 

I find this particular statement kind of interesting, taken from a purely RP perspective (since a lot of your critiques seem to be coming partly from an RP angle, e.g. the inability to 'act' civilian by unequipping). In DAO and DA2 and going all the way back to the BG games, my character's equipment was always a fairly crucial aspect of who they were as a person: the specific weapons and armour they used, the specific accessories. It's often that way in RPGs, for example in Skyrim my character was always dressed in an assortment of Daedric artefacts even when i could craft superior items. I nearly always ended DA2 with the Hawke's Key, and played Act 1 in the DLC armour that came from your dad's mercenary days. My City Elf wardens used Fang long after it ceased to be very effective. Anyway, my point is that equipment for me has always been a crucial aspect of character determination in WRPGs (less so in a lot of JRPGs, where I just tended to use 'ultimate' stuff), and thus I don't see how stat increases being mostly affiliated with equipment really takes away from the character. Especially with crafting, where you are able to construct internal narratives for the equipment the Inquisitor and her/his party is using.


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#11
Nonoru

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You can equip Varric with daggers


 

 

These being called Bee an' Kah would be a safe assumption?


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#12
Pokemario

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They have introduced the perks,though,that are (in my opinion) much more significant.
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#13
Majin Paul

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I'm a bit skeptical about the whole attribute and coercion changes but I'm going to see how it is in game though, it might be a good change.


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#14
Kantr

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have to watch the livestream again. See if the shield showed up on cass after they removed the 2h weapon



#15
The Elder King

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These being called Bee an' Kah would be a safe assumption?

Well, you can name them like this if you want :P.
Gaider called Cole's daggers
Spoiler

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#16
Nohvarr

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I will just say that I am fine with moving my persuasion and knowledge skills from my Inquisitor to the Inquisition, because it's still my choice. I am the one who decides that having a library dedicated to arcane research is more important than increasing my influence in Orlais or providing all of my Soldiers with extra belt space for potions. It's also a nice in game explanation for why my Qunari Beserker, who has never touched a spell book in his life is suddenly so well read on the subject.

 

As for attributes, since their increase is tied to my choice of passive and active skills along with gear I am good with this change. I mean if my warrior spends all his time practicing Whirlwind of Power blow, an increase to the appropriate attribute makes sense to me. If my mage has his underlings (and I LOVE having underlings now...I shall be tough but fair boss) forge him a circlet that soothes the mind and allows him to think clearly no matter the danger around him, a boost to my intelligence based abilities just seems right.

 

And finally we reach fixed weapons. I fully understand people being upset that they cannot use dual swords for Warriors, or long swords for Rogues (etc). However, there is some hope. Mr. Laidlaw stated in an interview that they tried to get Dual wielding warriors into the game but since they wanted the way they fought to look/play different from rogues they were unable to accomplish this task. If things go well with this game and a sequel is given the go ahead, it is my hope that weapons restrictions will open up a bit and the way each class USES their weapon's will have a noticeable distinction from other classes.


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#17
Scerene

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people ended up putting all stats in 1 or 2 attributes anyway. Without this system the game becomes more accessible to new players and decreases the risk that they might "mess up" and gimp their chars by distributing their points poorly. I honestly dont think a lot of this stuff will matter once we sit down and get to play the game. I get the freedom aspect of it so thats a valid point imo. Sometimes its best to focus on appreciating whats been added rather than lamenting over whats been removed. Dao had way too many skills and spells imo that most people didnt even use. The dev team decided to focus on the aspects that were most important for the largest amount of people.

I mean when you think about it quite a lot of resources go into making tons of skills and spells and then having to create animations for all of them plus making sure they are properly balanced. I think thats partially why Arcane warriors were god mode in DAO because they had so many different abilities to synergize with, and then you had other people who might have focused on the "wrong" abilties and completely gimped themselves. Its better to have fewer skills that are solid and useful than having a huge amount of them, that only serve to clutter up the game, with only a handful that are useful.


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#18
10K

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Only reason I see we can't un-equip is because of their choice of not incorporating a hand-to-hand combat option. I think that was the reason they took un-equip out of DA2, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason here.



#19
Nonoru

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Well, you can name them like this if you want :P.
Gaider called Cole's daggers

Spoiler

 

Oh, I like that. 



#20
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make that four words: streamlining to accomodate multiplayer. ;)
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#21
SetecAstronomy

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Unequiping weapons in DAO for the civilian look was silly imo. Where did those weapons go? Into a magical Bag of Holding I wager because they simply vanish. Its always been my problem w/ rpg inventory. One couuld walk around with 5 battleaxes, 9 suits of plate armor and a magus cowl and run all over the land at top speed for hours. Ive never been one to play the immersion card but...yeah.


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#22
Dunbartacus

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Im pretty sure the inquisitor will have enemies and be well known, thus trying to pass as a civilian without armor or weapons in a village/city could be close to suicide imo.



#23
Nohvarr

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Ok, so your just an optimist that doesn't like saying bad things. I think I understand that now.

I enjoy giving constructive criticism but have yet to play the game, so I can't form an opinion beyond "I am interested". Heck I wasn't paying much attention to this game up until they announced that Qunari would be a playable race. Now if Bioware wants to fly ME out to LA I will be happy to play the most current version of the game and give some feedback to them, and my own thoughts on the state of the game to the forum.

 

I may have to reshuffle my schedule a bit, but it's a sacrifice I am willing to make for the community.


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#24
metalfenix

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No healing spells (or better said, only one very expensive and almost end game heal spell), no blood magic, no setting attributes at level up....oh man. I hope we get a complex perk and crafting system to make up for this. Reading this really depress me.



#25
simpatikool

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(1) Attributes

 

As I mentioned, attributes have been traditionally used as a fundament for other aspects of character customization. In early tabletop RPGs, they determined what class you could play, and later, they were chosen in order to benefit a specific class. Either way, they were an important way to make our characters unique. Even in games as late as DAO, they influenced what you could learn in many different ways.

 

In DAI, they do not have that role anymore. Basically, attributes are irrelevant except as they influence combat. In that, we may now even be more variable than before, because attributes are now more influenced by equipment and we can change equipment to create different configurations. Since learning of skills does not depend on attributes any more, this results in an overall increase in the degrees of freedom when playing the game. However, equipment is not a part of our characters, and now that all variables are external to the character and all characters remain unrestricted by individual attribute allocation with regard to what abilities they may learn, this results in a net loss of ways to make our characters unique.

 

I find it hard to evaluate if these things have ever really been that important in the past (speaking only of DA games), or if this was an illusion and my choices were so much determined by my class that this new system just canonizes what people did anyway, except for minor variations. I don't know how this will feel in the actual game, but it feels different from here and requires a significant mental switch to adapt to from the old mindset of "attributes are the fundamentals of your character". Also, that customization options are moved from character to equipment creates an unfortunate vibe of "what you have is more important than who you are".

 

 

 

Hey OP, I appreciate your sentiments, and I find your opening statements on the subject interesting. I also have been wondering about some of these aspects in DAI, as well as in Video RPGs and the trend I have been seeing in that regard.

 

As far as your observations, I will limit my thoughts to primarily attributes, as I see moving away from hard attribute scores dictating what you can and can't do as a player the most significant.

 

In ages past, attributes as you stated were a more defining characteristic. They essentially acted as a gate as to what character classes were open to you as well as bonuses to skills and abilities or even unlocking more skills later on.

 

Bioware seemed to do away with them in DA2, and really never used them in ME. You could argue that ME was more of a shooter, and that generally speaking attribute scores are the hallmark of Fantasy RPGs, reaching back to DnD. Certainly Bioware first RPG games (Like Baldurs Gate) was based on those rules.

 

However, in current times, Video games are trying to make the games accessible to a wider and wider audience. I do not think that accessibility is dumbing down a game like a lot of people seem to think however. We have seen other games that have done away with hard attributes as well. The most recent and successful I can offer is Skyrim. Prior iterations of the Elder Scrolls were all about attributes. I think that hard stat crunching, though something I absolutely LOVE as a table top RPG guy is in its own way fun, is something many people do not appreciate in Video games. If a company can streamline that, but add other skills or other aspects of the game that are still relevant, why is that a bad thing?

 

Also, I am one of those players that is really willing to let Video Game Companies experiment a little. As long as the game is solid, fun, engaging, then deviations from past successful iterations of a genre are fine with me. I don't want to play the exact same game each and every two years. (Or however I have to wait in between releases) I want to play an amazing game.


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