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Attributes, persuasion and the inability to unequip - a net loss for character customization?


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#26
Sith Grey Warden

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Only reason I see we can't un-equip is because of their choice of not incorporating a hand-to-hand combat option. I think that was the reason they took un-equip out of DA2, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the reason here.


Even without hand-to-hand combat, I want to be able to walk around unarmed. If I get into a fight without weapons, I'm fine with getting massacred because I can't launch an attack. Still, there'll be situations where I'll know I'm safe and want to appear non-threarening, like Hawke in daytime Hightown.

#27
xelander

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(1) Attributes

In KOTOR you only got to spend 5 points after your initial character creation was done. You were able to get much more from equipment and abilities.If you compare it to that, the DAI decision to not allocate any attribute points on level up is not that jarring. The problem for you, I think, is that attribute points serve dual purpose - one is game mechanics calculation and the other is RP-ing. But most of the time, one would spend the points so that they contribute to the build they are going for. So why not dispense with this false freedom option and  move it to the abilities trees (e.g. + Dex for some archery skills, + Cun for some dagger skills)?! Personally, I've always treated attribute points as part of the build, and the build itself gave me the feeling for the character (Armor Tank, Bruiser, Defense Tank, Archmage, CC mage, etc.). About the only exception I can think of is again KOTOR, where for metagaming reasons I insisted on the PC having high Charisma (cause that was how he/she is described in his "glory years"). Which had very limited practical application.

 

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that attribute allocation offers an illusory freedom of choice. Once past a certain point , you need to conform the points according to the build you are doing, even on Normal.

 

(2) Persuasion

I think it's better when these kind of skills/situations are moved away from character statistics and into dialogue- and story-choices. If my character is big on Persuasion or Intimdation, then choosing the corresponding Inquisition perk or dialogue option will only be keeping consistent with his ... character (pardon the pun).

The question really is if it irks you that you cannot open the char sheet and see, a-ha, this guy/gal is quite the conversationalist.

 

(3)inability to unequip

Personally, I like that you can't change equipment during battle, that's more realistic and a plus in my book. As for the other situation, I had the same thing with ME1 to ME2 to ME3 holstering of the gun. I guess it does reduce the RPing a bit, but it's not too much for me. As someone said in the Cass thread - Demons are pouring through the Veil, I'd sleep in armor, too. ;)


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#28
MrDbow

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I, too, do not see any issues with what you talked about OP, however I understand your reasons. 

 

I am of the mind that the Inquisition is more important than the Inquisitor in this game (of course, both go hand-in-hand with each other) so moving choices from the character to the Inquisition feels right in this case.  Otherwise, I may actually agree with you - Give more choices to character customization (looks, play style, attributes, etc.).

 

"Civilian" or the ability to unequip weapons is honestly not on my OWN radar.  However, I can completely understand the overall scope of what you mean.  I actually struggle with switching to better armor, if I felt the old or weaker one was more "iconic" to the story (example: N7 armor compared to Onyx X armor in Mass Effect).

 

 

 

 

-- I should also note too in case UniformGreyColor decides to accuse me and to jump up & down and point "Fan-Boy! Fan-Boy!"  You are damn right I am a fanboy of BioWare's.  How am I fanboy? 

 

I ENJOYED DRAGON AGE 2 AND MASS EFFECT 3'S ENDINGS!!

tumblr_n6t3kzuLve1sqqon4o5_500.gif


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#29
Nohvarr

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I have personally seen you compare this game to other BW games and only said "have no fear, this game has you covered," Not in so many words, but my point remains.

You mean this post?

 

 

I'll go ahead and comment but for the record, I don't think Bioware will really listen to feedback on the games until people have actually played it. That said I am good with what I've seen.

 

I must admit it's been interesting reviewing where Boware's come from. I mean people love to talk about Baldur's Gate, but I look at later games like Knights of The Old Republic, Jade Empire and Neverwinter nights and find it fascinating to consider all the ways Bioware has tried to improve their gameplay. KOTOR's gameplay was interesting but it's really the story and characters that kept me going throughout that adventure. Oh sure I had a momentary thrill when I finally got to use a Lightsaber in combat....but the gameplay was not anything to write home about. Jade Empire was a great idea....but come to early. Again combat never gelled and you really only had control of one character. Looking back on it....it either needed to play like The Arkham series or Sleeping Dogs.....The KH2 system also may have worked. Then we come to Neverwinter Nights....It was a great toolbox with an average story...and to give credit where it's due, the community really made that game.

 

Now...here we are again, a new game and a new combat system, and new lessons to learn. One way or another this should prove interesting.

Nothing in there is anywhere near close to me saying "Have no fear, this game has you covered"

 

In fact the last line litterally admits that the entire thing could fail......I don't even now how you reached that conclusion....


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#30
UniformGreyColor

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-- I should also note too in case UniformGreyColor decides to accuse me and to jump up & down and point "Fan-Boy! Fan-Boy!"  You are damn right I am a fanboy of BioWare's.  How am I fanboy? 

 

I ENJOYED DRAGON AGE 2 AND MASS EFFECT 3'S ENDINGS!!

tumblr_n6t3kzuLve1sqqon4o5_500.gif

 

Good for you! I'm glad you have your priorities in order and not at all realistic about seeing flaws in things.



#31
MrDbow

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Good for you! I'm glad you have your priorities in order and not at all realistic about seeing flaws in things.

 

tumblr_nbl8cduPr71r4hxv8o1_500.gif

 

I do not see flaws as it pertains to the OP's concerns - as it pertains to this particular game.  You can always enjoy things despite seeing flaws.

 

Except Fassbender, he has no flaws, but that is OT.


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#32
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I think each aspect that is noted are not necessarily equal.  So where are you getting your net loss?  how are you weighting your factors?  Is it just one for one?

 

I understand why they got rid of attributes.  They don't seem that necessary, I always felt like attributes is kind of an illusion of choice.  We have two attributes connected to every class and the choice is just a matter of how much in each.  This seems connected to equipping different items and it looks like some items give massive boosts to attributes so in a way there is more parity/choice in how much you want for your two attributes.

 

Coercion is just a meta game play mechanic.  In DA:O I just dumped all of my first skills into coercion and felt the need to put points into cunning to not miss out on dialog.  In DA2 the persuasion was just the meta gaming the top choice, middle choice, or bottom choice.  In DA:I it looks like you can choose your knowledge base and RP your character how you want.  This offers more variety and approach to persuasion/coercion mechanic.  AND it looks like those skills have other passives attached to it.

 

I will give you the unequip mechanic.  But even you said that if 1% of people use it is still a lack of choice.  How much do you think 1% can be weighted as a factor AGAINST DA:I? I also want to add, perhaps the homebase acts as a safe zone to not have equipped items or armor?

 

I know you posted a negative but constructive thread before.  I really hope you are also looking at the positives in things versus the negative.  I am starting to think you are a negative nancy.  :P



#33
Lumix19

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make that four words: streamlining to accomodate multiplayer. ;)

Not sure if you're joking. If you aren't though then:

 

I-call-bullshit-t-shirt-sq.jpg

 

The changes they made to SP have nothing to do with MP. Also why do people constantly bring up streamlining? WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

 

Good for you! I'm glad you have your priorities in order and not at all realistic about seeing flaws in things.

Hey! I enjoyed DA2 and ME3 as well but it doesn't mean I think they were flawless. I'm starting to get the impression that you think your opinion is objective. Sorry to break it to you but it isn't, get over yourself.


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#34
Majin Paul

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Well, you can name them like this if you want :P.
Gaider called Cole's daggers

Spoiler

Hang on, can we really name weapons?



#35
UniformGreyColor

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Hey! I enjoyed DA2 and ME3 as well but it doesn't mean I think they were flawless. I'm starting to get the impression that you think your opinion is objective. Sorry to break it to you but it isn't, get over yourself.

 

I don't think my opinion is any more objective than anyone elses because that would mean its an opinion and not say, a fact. Its a fact that if you see something you don't like and never bring it up either directly or indirectly you won't have an effect on that particular potential change if there is one. If someone chooses to not voice their concerns with something they will have no control over that issue. Its like voting, if you don't vote you have no say. Saying only good things tells people you don't think things should change. Simple as that.



#36
Majin Paul

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So, it appears. I loved naming my equip in Skyrim, looking forward to it.

Same, a weapon needs a name to make it great.



#37
Salaya

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I think BW, when it comes to this changes, is trying (again) to cater to as much players as possible. I feel that saying DA:I will have more choice and customization, while at the same time, removing attribute allcation, externalizing coercion and restricting classes/equipment, has the ring of ambigous marketing. Maybe I'll change opinion when I play it, but the more I read about DA:I, the more I feel they are trying to deceive me as a "veteran" crpg player.


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#38
Vilegrim

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Not sure if you're joking. If you aren't though then:

 

I-call-bullshit-t-shirt-sq.jpg

 

The changes they made to SP have nothing to do with MP. Also why do people constantly bring up streamlining? WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

 

Hey! I enjoyed DA2 and ME3 as well but it doesn't mean I think they were flawless. I'm starting to get the impression that you think your opinion is objective. Sorry to break it to you but it isn't, get over yourself.

 

 

Streamline: take out complicated or non-essential processes to make operations faster or simpler, it is simpler to balance a game if every character is the same as every other, so you remove weapon options, and build options, and stat allocation to streamline people into 'optimal' choices, the trees are ways of doing 1 job, rather than options on what that job is. Except the sub optimal ones tended to be a huge amount of fun, and more memorable, than power builds.   Yes I still miss DW warriors, with high dex, or strength duellist rogues....basically make choices as cosmetic as possible, as a method of making encounters easier to plan (You can see it in MMOs that don't have hybrid builds, wow being one, pick a talent tree, have a large number of meaningless or near meaningless tweaks and it looks like you have huge variety when you do not)


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#39
Nohvarr

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Well thats because it was a different post. I said you said that in not so many words, what I meant by that is that you did not use those exact words, but that is the conclusion that you gave.

Link to post?



#40
WillieStyle

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Big ups to Http404 for mentioning the illusion of choice. All RPGs are designed such that one or two attributes are optimal for each class. Clearly suboptimal choices don't enhance gameplay. For example: in the one DA:O game where I chose to let Loghain live, I never actually let this legendary warrior tank because his attribute distribution was atrocious.

Also, the biggest advantage of the new perky stem is that it separates combat abilities from dialogue abilities. The old D&D style of making charisma, wisdom, and intelligence dialogue perks just gimped mundane characters relative to magical ones. For example, once I figured out the game, I NEVER went through Planescape Torment as anything but a Mage. The concept of giving persuasiveness an opportunity cost relative to combat effectiveness was always bad design (and unrealistic). DA:I's system, where persuasiveness in different aspects of conversation have opportunity costs relative to each other is FAR superior.

On the meta question of fanboy-ism, I personally am optimistic not because I don't want anything to change, but because I love the changes Bioware is making. In my opinion, Western RPGs historically inherited several awful design flaws from D&D; and I love the fact that Bioware is working to correct them.
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#41
jtav

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I only really miss attributes. My Warrior was built with Cunning, and well, never cared for crafting. We'll see what happens. Coercin doesn't really bother me because I don't really distinguish between what I choose at level up and what I acquire via other means. It's all my character. And it's never even occurred to me to unequip weapons.

I'd be less sanguine if DA historically did more with stat checks so that cunning warrior felt smarter.

#42
They call me a SpaceCowboy

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Sure, choosing your own attribute point allocation was an illusion of choice. it was because Bioware made it that way. Each class had 2 attributes considered important for that class. Even DAO, sure you could choose to dump points in cunning for a mage but it didn't have any noticeable effect beyond unlocking some abilities. Strength and dexterity even less use for a mage. Maybe you can get more HP on your mage by investing in Constitution, but to what end?

 

Da2 they made it even more obvious that this was an illusion of choice by locking you out of better armour and weapons if you didn't assign attributes the way they wanted you to.

 

Now in DAI, they've dropped all pretence, No really, you are gonna dump points into these 2 stats whether you like it or not. 

 

So does this count as a net loss or a net gain? Neither, we never had the choice to begin with.

 

As for why this change? Simplification, streamlining? Some technical reason? who knows. Developers always make changes for a reason, and that reason rarely has anything to do with making a game better for the players. They make changes to solve a problem. The problem could be balance, it could be memory limits, it could be that another way of implementing something was too buggy to implement correctly. Does anyone believe the condescending nonsense that some devs gave for why in ME2 and Da2 they switched to Iconic looks? They did it to solve a problem, not because 'Varric isn't your character, why should you be able to tell him how to dress?'. 

 

The fact is, the less choice Bioware gives us as players, the easier it is on them to develop a solid game. They can tailor a combat encounter to a  specific character level easier, for instance, if they know what your stats and abilities are going to be at that level.  Look at the way the DA2 abilities were designed. Play to level 7, choosing the abilities available to you that you want. Then try another character of the same class but choose completely different abilities. Can you? not likely. You'll find most of the other abilities locked until they say you are allowed to have them. Illusion of choice. Obviously you can choose another tree, but you won't get very far in it.

 

In  DAO its the same thing. Sure you can switch to different weapon sets, but you won't be able to use them effectively unless you've invested in the right tree. A S&S warrior can equip a bow or 2 handed weapon and auto attack it, but that's about all he/she can do.

 

I'm not saying that's a bad thing, necessarily. Don't get me wrong. It's just the way things are, and the way things will most likely always be with games like this.



#43
Sir JK

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(1) Attributes

 

As I mentioned, attributes have been traditionally used as a fundament for other aspects of character customization. In early tabletop RPGs, they determined what class you could play, and later, they were chosen in order to benefit a specific class. Either way, they were an important way to make our characters unique. Even in games as late as DAO, they influenced what you could learn in many different ways.

 

In DAI, they do not have that role anymore. Basically, attributes are irrelevant except as they influence combat. In that, we may now even be more variable than before, because attributes are now more influenced by equipment and we can change equipment to create different configurations. Since learning of skills does not depend on attributes any more, this results in an overall increase in the degrees of freedom when playing the game. However, equipment is not a part of our characters, and now that all variables are external to the character and all characters remain unrestricted by individual attribute allocation with regard to what abilities they may learn, this results in a net loss of ways to make our characters unique.

 

I find it hard to evaluate if these things have ever really been that important in the past (speaking only of DA games), or if this was an illusion and my choices were so much determined by my class that this new system just canonizes what people did anyway, except for minor variations. I don't know how this will feel in the actual game, but it feels different from here and requires a significant mental switch to adapt to from the old mindset of "attributes are the fundamentals of your character". Also, that customization options are moved from character to equipment creates an unfortunate vibe of "what you have is more important than who you are".

 

In my humble opinion Ieldra, attributes have never been true character customisation in Dragon Age at all. Not a single one of them marks any form of significant change in how your character can interact with the world. The only true impact they had was lock away certain abilities from you and have an obfuscated impact on your damage/defense. This essentially made the attributes in DAO a pacing mechanic, an extension of the level systems.

 

Would you truly have noticed if the abilities and equipment were locked away only by level rather than both level and attribute in DAO?

 

The only attributes that was tangibly reflected in the world itself in a enabling manner was cunning and strength, in their effect on persuasion checks. But even then it was the skill, not the attribute, that did the heavy lifting.

 

For anything else you'd need a spreadsheet to notice the difference (apart from, as I said, it's function as a pacing mechanic). Putting points in high strength did  not allow you to use that to overcome obstacles. High magic did not grant your character a closer connection or understanding of magic. Constitution did not allow your character to run for longer. What was average scores? What was considered strong? Gifted?

 

This is what essentially makes it what I would call false character customization, in that it has a purely mechanical effect. Whereas hair colour, which abilities/skills you picked, what equipment you wore are examples of true character customization in that they all have tangible effects in what you see or can do.

Whether you had 34 or 38 in strength was not tangible, whether you could talk down Ser Cauthrien was. The difference between 12 or 17 dex was invisible but whether your characters hair were red and black was something that was reflected. The attributes were even more abstract than hitpoints, and that's not saying a little.

 

Now, what we lost was the ability to make a less than perfect character. I can see this being a rather significant loss in terms of defining your own character. It was a freedom we had and could be very rewarding. Unfortunantely, such builds are also traps easily fallen into by new players. Which makes it a feature that might be appriciated by experienced players but alienate new ones. Sabotaging your own character is only fun if you do so intentionally after all.

 

Losing control of the attribute system also makes has an effect in the immersion of the development of your character as you could gauge your character slowly developing themselves. But I'd argue that the ability system serves the same role, though reflecting more the learning and mastery of techniques rather than purely increasing muscle mass (or equalient).

 

So, I'd argue that we haven't lost much in terms of character customization at all. What we had before in terms of character build has simply moved to other parts of the build. Fewer questions are asked, but we're not left with less choice. And if the non-combat use of abilities holds what it promises, we may in fact have gained in terms of customization in this part of the game.

 

That's not saying that attributes shouldn't have a tangible non-mechanical impact. I'd like that too. But it's not something DA has really had in any significant degree thus far. That's not something we've lost, it's something we've never had.


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#44
Ieldra

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(1) Attributes
In KOTOR you only got to spend 5 points after your initial character creation was done. You were able to get much more from equipment and abilities.If you compare it to that, the DAI decision to not allocate any attribute points on level up is not that jarring. The problem for you, I think, is that attribute points serve dual purpose - one is game mechanics calculation and the other is RP-ing. But most of the time, one would spend the points so that they contribute to the build they are going for. So why not dispense with this false freedom option and  move it to the abilities trees (e.g. + Dex for some archery skills, + Cun for some dagger skills)?! Personally, I've always treated attribute points as part of the build, and the build itself gave me the feeling for the character (Armor Tank, Bruiser, Defense Tank, Archmage, CC mage, etc.). About the only exception I can think of is again KOTOR, where for metagaming reasons I insisted on the PC having high Charisma (cause that was how he/she is described in his "glory years"). Which had very limited practical application.
 
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that attribute allocation offers an illusory freedom of choice. Once past a certain point , you need to conform the points according to the build you are doing, even on Normal.


Indeed, this is the RP aspect of attributes. How illustory that freedom is is dependent on whether the attributes are ever used for roleplaying purposes. In DAO, that was limited to Coercion, and that's now covered by a different mechanic, so yes, there is the point that attributes were never really used for these things in the DA games. My intuitive preference, however, would have been to use them more rather than remove their importance for roleplaying and switch the remaining functionality over to equipment. As I said, it's not a big thing, but it remains to be seen how roleplaying in DAI feels in general. It's certainly quite possible to make up for it in other aspects.
 
 
 

(2) Persuasion
I think it's better when these kind of skills/situations are moved away from character statistics and into dialogue- and story-choices. If my character is big on Persuasion or Intimdation, then choosing the corresponding Inquisition perk or dialogue option will only be keeping consistent with his ... character (pardon the pun).
The question really is if it irks you that you cannot open the char sheet and see, a-ha, this guy/gal is quite the conversationalist.



From a purist roleplaying perspective, it is undesirable to remove character customization options for traits where characters can plausibly be very different from each other, but I agree this is a point of contention, since this is an area where the player can be creative and where most fun lies in acting it out (in the context of CRPGS, by using a dialogue option) rather than "using a skill". The appropriate implementation for this philosophy, however, would be to give a greater variety of dialogue options, secretly rate all options towards a specific goal the player may be able to achieve in this scene, and vary the NPC's reactions depending on how "appropriate" your choice is in that regard. I have my doubts that we'll have that in DAI. The skill was a convenient way to simulate this.

The basic problem is that yes, your organization has an impact on these things, but your personality also has one. That aspect is now gone.
 
 

(3)inability to unequip
Personally, I like that you can't change equipment during battle, that's more realistic and a plus in my book. As for the other situation, I had the same thing with ME1 to ME2 to ME3 holstering of the gun. I guess it does reduce the RPing a bit, but it's not too much for me. As someone said in the Cass thread - Demons are pouring through the Veil, I'd sleep in armor, too. ;)



I wouldn't want to change during battle. This is part of the "dressing for the occasion" guideline some developers have consistently and spectacularly failed to meet. I can live with it, but it's resulted in so many groan-worthy situations that I wonder why they're still doing it. Hopefully we'll atleast be able to visit the Orlesian ball unarmed...

#45
They call me a SpaceCowboy

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I think BW, when it comes to this changes, is trying (again) to cater to as much players as possible. I feel that saying DA:I will have more choice and customization, while at the same time, removing attribute allcation, externalizing coercion and restricting classes/equipment, has the ring of ambigous marketing. Maybe I'll change opinion when I play it, but the more I read about DA:I, the more I feel they are trying to deceive me as a "veteran" crpg player.

 

 

Of course they are. But hey I'm just a cynical old gamer. :P

 

It's part of any Bioware employees job to express positive things about the game they are trying to sell you. They aren't going to ever tell you "You know what? You're right, this aspect of the game is going to suck". It isn't in their best interest do do so, if they value their jobs. They could be doing so internally, but they will never tell us that.



#46
UniformGreyColor

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Link to post?

 

I don't remember what thread it was in let alone the specifics of the conversation so searching for it would be a real chore. I just saw the conclusion you made and though, hmm, I wonder if this guy is critical of anything about this game.



#47
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Sir JK, just a note on that long post. In DAO abilities were locked by both level and attribute.



#48
Giantdeathrobot

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The changes they made to SP have nothing to do with MP. Also why do people constantly bring up streamlining? WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

 

 

 

In 99% of the cases I've seen, it means ''I don't like it, but I'm going to use a fancy word to make it seem like it's objectively bad''.


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#49
Nohvarr

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I don't remember what thread it was in let alone the specifics of the conversation so searching for it would be a real chore. I just saw the conclusion you made and though, hmm, I wonder if this guy is critical of anything about this game.

So.....I have no way of knowing what my actual words were, or the context of the conversation. I have to rely on your memory alone that my words could be taken the way you claim.

 

Noted.


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#50
OctagonalSquare

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(1) Persuasion / Coercion

 

This, too, is not part of our character anymore. Instead, we get Inquisition perks that serve the same purpose in addition to a few other things. Now, I'm absolutely thrilled by the perk system and the ways we can shape our organization, and yet again, this may result in an increase of the overall degrees of freedom for the player. However, again a customization element is moved away from the character, creating a rather odd mixed impression of "the player's gain is the character's loss". 

How is persuasion/coercion coming from perks make it "not part of our character anymore"?

 

About the inability to unequip, I'm likely to forget about it while playing.....until some minor detail reminds me that a mage shouldn't be  married to their staff, or the next time I visit a town and don't want to walk around as if everything was a threat. Also, since in reality, characters do remove their weapons occasionally, this is also an immersion-breaker. In DA2, Hawke was appropriately unarmed while in their house. So why can't this be a choice anywhere else?

There are numerous occasions where bandits, etc. can attack you at a moment's notice. Which is more immersion breaking? That a character can't walk around in clothes without weapons? Or that a character can just pop on some massive armor and a greatsword whenever the need arises?