154 réponses à ce sujet

[WillieStyle]

The lack of Persuasion is a bit icky as I tend to love placing points into that in Bloodlines, KOTOR 2, New Vegas or what have you. Ultimately, I somehow knew there'd be a bit of streamlining in the gameplay department. 

 

In that respect, I miss the attributes too given they usually aren't mutually exclusive and persuasion was dictated upon how many points you've placed into charisma or any equivalent of such.

 

Ugh!  What they did is the opposite of streamlining.  Rather than two skills (persuade and intimidate) that automatically make you good at all conversations, there are now effectively multiple conversation skills that give you advantages based on context.  This is much deeper than in previous Dragon Age games.  

 

The only other difference is that the conversation skills don't come from the same pool as your combat skills.  Instead they come from a different pool linked to the inquisition.  So the choice isn't: "be good at making poisons" or "good at sweet-talking people".  It's more like: "be good at sweet-talking nobles", "know your way around the criminal underworld", or "let your soldiers carry more healing potions".

[Medhia_Nox]

@WillieStyle: Or be like my Inquisition and heavily load up on every Perk Josephine has because you're going to have the world eating out of the palm of your hand.

[TheChris92]

Ugh!  What they did is the opposite of streamlining.  Rather than two skills (persuade and intimidate) that automatically make you good at all conversations, there are now effectively multiple conversation skills that give you advantages based on context.  This is much deeper than in previous Dragon Age games.  

 

The only other difference is that the conversation skills don't come from the same pool as your combat skills.  Instead they come from a different pool linked to the inquisition.  So the choice isn't: "be good at making poisons" or "good at sweet-talking people".  It's more like: "be good at sweet-talking nobles", "know your way around the criminal underworld", or "let your soldiers carry more healing potions".

Having persuasion be entirely dependent upon perks is not something I've ever particularly cared for at all. What you're describing doesn't sound much like an improvement to me. Also, in Origins, it was only really one skill that granted persuasion and intimidation (namely, coercion), which is not something I was particularly fond of either, it was rather the concept of your cunning being the defining factor that suited me.

[WillieStyle]

@WillieStyle: Or be like my Inquisition and heavily load up on every Perk Josephine has because you're going to have the world eating out of the palm of your hand.

 

Great minds...

[WillieStyle]

Having persuasion be entirely dependent upon perks is not something I've ever particularly cared for at all. What you're describing doesn't sound much like an improvement to me. Also, in Origins, it was only really one skill that granted persuasion and intimidation (namely, coercion), which is not something I was particularly fond of either, it was rather the concept of your cunning being the defining factor that suited me.

 

Whether or not you like the change, it cannot be described as "streamlining" as it makes conversation skills more complex than in previous Dragon Age games.  I for one, however, love the change.

[In Exile]

Interesting points but I'm not sure I agree. There's always the question of what each party member contributes. If magical characters are necessarily better talkers and equally good hitters, then mundanes are just semi-useless Swiss Army knives brought long to disarm traps. This was especially bad in the D&D/BG days when Mages and Priests could summon monsters that could tank better than a fighter.

As for non-combat means of overcoming challenges: the game is first and foremost a game. Unless one has compelling dialogue gameplay, combat will still need to take up the vast majority of play time (Fallout 1 and Planescape Torment notwithstanding). Therefore, the combat-poor wily character becomes something of a gimmick experienced players use on their nth play through to switch things up.

 

We had knock spells - we didn't need a thief taking up space. Or if you were really interest in a thief I guess you could dual-class into a mage from a thief.

[TheChris92]

Whether or not you like the change, it cannot be described as "streamlining" as it makes conversation skills more complex than in previous Dragon Age games.  I for one, however, love the change.

It is simplified, however, because unless these perks don't have any strong requirements, like in previous RPGs where attributes have been essential to unlocking an upgrade for an existing skill "like persuasion", then it's essentially easier to achieve and become as charismatic as a sect leader. The word refers to improving the efficiency of a process, business or organization by simplifying or eliminating unnecessary steps, using modernizing techniques, or taking other approaches.

 

From what I'm seeing -- That is essentially what it is. 

 

Admittedly, it is a step-up above Mass Effect at least.

[nialler]

I find this particular statement kind of interesting, taken from a purely RP perspective (since a lot of your critiques seem to be coming partly from an RP angle, e.g. the inability to 'act' civilian by unequipping). In DAO and DA2 and going all the way back to the BG games, my character's equipment was always a fairly crucial aspect of who they were as a person: the specific weapons and armour they used, the specific accessories. It's often that way in RPGs, for example in Skyrim my character was always dressed in an assortment of Daedric artefacts even when i could craft superior items. I nearly always ended DA2 with the Hawke's Key, and played Act 1 in the DLC armour that came from your dad's mercenary days. My City Elf wardens used Fang long after it ceased to be very effective. Anyway, my point is that equipment for me has always been a crucial aspect of character determination in WRPGs (less so in a lot of JRPGs, where I just tended to use 'ultimate' stuff), and thus I don't see how stat increases being mostly affiliated with equipment really takes away from the character. Especially with crafting, where you are able to construct internal narratives for the equipment the Inquisitor and her/his party is using.

it absolutely blows my mind how many people get so uppity over the fact that attribute choices are not physically a part of their character sheet, or that conversation skills come from Inquisition perks and not a part of your character's stats or abilities.  The end result is the same, and they are all abstractions in terms of using game mechanics to represent real life concepts.  Additionally, it seems the new systems (gear customization stats and inquisition perks) allow even MORE customization than the other games did.  But people still whine about changes they think are "unnecessary" when they haven't even seen how all the systems in DA:I work together yet.  Absolutely astounding.

[WillieStyle]

We had knock spells - we didn't need a thief taking up space. Or if you were really interest in a thief I guess you could dual-class into a mage from a thief.

 

Ah I still have fond memories of my Swashbuckler/Mage, Kensai/Mage, and Ranger/Cleric from BG2.  Dual-class plus spell caster, rendering pure Fighters and Thieves obsolete from Athkatla to the Underdark.

[nightscrawl]

people ended up putting all stats in 1 or 2 attributes anyway.

This was true for DA2 where you had important stats for a class and the rest were garbage. However in DAO there was more flexibility with the stats, particularly for rogue and warrior.

 

Without this system the game becomes more accessible to new players and decreases the risk that they might "mess up" and gimp their chars by distributing their points poorly.

While I am generally sympathetic to new players, having been one myself, the existence of respec options (which I believe DAI has) basically eliminates that concern. I've played games where stats were extremely important and even re-rolled high level characters because of it. But it wouldn't have been an issue in those games if a respec option had been available. Noobs are free to be noobs, and when they aren't anymore the respec is available so the time investment isn't wasted. I don't really see a problem with it.

 

Dao had way too many skills and spells imo that most people didnt even use. The dev team decided to focus on the aspects that were most important for the largest amount of people.

How do you know people didn't use them? Again this comes down to customization and specialization. With the large variety of spells and abilities that DAO has you're able to have your character specialize in one area. For the mage particularly I really enjoyed being a single type of mage, and having my mage followers being different types of mages.

it absolutely blows my mind how many people get so uppity over the fact that attribute choices are not physically a part of their character sheet, or that conversation skills come from Inquisition perks and not a part of your character's stats or abilities. The end result is the same, and they are all abstractions in terms of using game mechanics to represent real life concepts. Additionally, it seems the new systems (gear customization stats and inquisition perks) allow even MORE customization than the other games did. But people still whine about changes they think are "unnecessary" when they haven't even seen how all the systems in DA:I work together yet. Absolutely astounding.

Sure, you can customize with gear just like you can in World of Warcraft. I don't really see a problem with that. The issues comes with their philosophy of class design. Is it more like DAO where you have flexibility or more rigid like DA2?

[Paul E Dangerously]

Agreed with this so very, very much. It's what I've been saying for a while - DAI, like DA2, forces players into a box that you can never get out of. After being able to climb out of the box in DAO, being so limited is..limiting.

[Rawgrim]

One thing that is added to this game is that we can customize the look of each armour we put on the PC or the followers. That bit is a big step towards customization, in all fairness. Took a few step back in other areas, though.

[Paul E Dangerously]

DAI would have an overall budget set by EA, and then from there each department would be set there own budget from the overall budget. There are still laws regarding finance, that must be followed, so while MP may have a seperate secondary budget, it is still a part of an overall budget and limit. DAMP and Single DAI are still counted as a single product: so they still legally have to follow a set format and laws. And if there are Increased variable costs caused by one department, those costs still need to come from somewhere in the overall budget.

So this 'seperate' budget for mp is utter bshit and PR spin.

 

Plus, we know from the developers' own words that MP has influenced SP in at least some respects. The Combat FAQ mentioned that encounters were designed in concert with MP, and that alone should be worrying.

[Ieldra]

One thing that is added to this game is that we can customize the look of each armour we put on the PC or the followers. That bit is a big step towards customization, in all fairness. Took a few step back in other areas, though.

Indeed, the crafting system appears to be extensive. Looking forward to that. I didn't really believe that making my own armor and weapons would really add to my character, but after the last video I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise.

[Rawgrim]

Indeed, the crafting system appears to be extensive. Looking forward to that. I didn't really believe that making my own armor and weapons would really add to my character, but after the last video I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise.

 

It doesn't add to your character at all. Just the items\clothing you can put on the character. Still, you can get a unique look to the character, though.

[In Exile]

It doesn't add to your character at all. Just the items\clothing you can put on the character. Still, you can get a unique look to the character, though.

 

I would consider that adding to the character - your look and statistical loadout is part of RP. 

[Morroian]

it absolutely blows my mind how many people get so uppity over the fact that attribute choices are not physically a part of their character sheet, or that conversation skills come from Inquisition perks and not a part of your character's stats or abilities.  The end result is the same, and they are all abstractions in terms of using game mechanics to represent real life concepts. 

 

Its not the same and its a point Bioware seem to be missing in their design. The OP raises a good point which crystalises my main concerns with the game, role playing involves identification with the character you're playing, by removing it from the PC they are placing a barrier to this identification. DA2 was the starting point on this, DAI is a continuation of this trend. Bioware are looking at  functionality and ignoring the role playing aspects. Funnily enough this design would probably be better in a game purely party based without any major character.

[Rawgrim]

I would consider that adding to the character - your look and statistical loadout is part of RP. 

 

I can agree on the looks bit. But the statistical bits you get from the outfit is not character related. Its a bonus on equipment.

[In Exile]

I can agree on the looks bit. But the statistical bits you get from the outfit is not character related. Its a bonus on equipment.

You can customise the stats. That'd be an in-character decision. Like picking abilities.

[Amfortas]

I've just read that the attribute system is gone, I'm pretty shocked. Once again Bioware's way of fixing something is just to remove it. They did it with the non combat skills, they do it now with the attributes. I never liked the 3 points per level system, but at least we had a small margin of creativity. I hope there's at least a coherent loot system and not just something random, with mages dropping full plate armour.

 

As for the persuasion/intimidation, it was terrible in Origins, was terrible in DAII, and I'm sure it will still be terrible in Inquisition as well, so nothing new here.

[CENIC]

During the PC UI livestream today, Mike equipped a mace on the Iron Bull and I don't think I saw a shield!

[Rawgrim]

You can customise the stats. That'd be an in-character decision. Like picking abilities.

 

The ones you get through perks, sure. The "regular ones" the game just assigns for you, though.

[In Exile]

The ones you get through perks, sure. The "regular ones" the game just assigns for you, though.

Wait, what do you mean the ones you get through perks?