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[Hydwn]

All the talk of Temple of the Sacred Ashes related to DAI made me think about something about the Gauntlet that always made me wonder.

 

There are eight spirits who ask riddles there.  They are all, presumably, placed there by true believers in Andraste.  Yet most of them portray the Andrastean faith in a weird if not bad light:

 

• Andraste's mother lost her daughter, and knew of the tragedy beforehand
• Andraste's best friend lost her friend when Andraste met the Maker
• Shartan's people were betrayed, the promise of Andraste to them failed thanks to her own followers
• Hessarian's wife talks about the blood debt incurred by Andraste's rebellion and armies
• Maferath was a jilted husband whose wife Andraste essentially left him for a god
• Hessarian actually killed Andraste - both ordering her death and putting the sword into her.  And unlike its real-world analogue of Christianity where the death is supposed to open the door to something, Andraste's death does nothing but convince the Maker to turn away from the world again.  Their god was mortal, and as the Warden can point in a conversation with Leliana, it's odd the Maker doesn't save her.
• Cathaire is a crazy fanatic who delights in death and suffering - a monster made by the Andrastean faith like the kind who later undo her promise to Shartan
• Havard is a good follower, but his part in the story is tragedy and mourning

 

They're an odd collection of people to have here, aren't they?  With the possible exception of Havard, they seem to cast the religion in the worst possible light, don't they...?  I'm sure it's intentional on the part of the writers, but I'm not sure why...?

[Kenshen]

You are describing them in life but we meet them in death.  Dying changed them to see the "light".  I don't know that is a good question.

[gottaloveme]

I think they all point to moving on and coming to terms with their choices in life. Then when the warden meets their particular 'ghost' the whole sense of 'what's done is done, now move on' comes to the fore again. I think it's like that prayer about changing what you can, leaving what you can't and the wisdom to know the difference.

[Hydwn]

You are describing them in life but we meet them in death.  Dying changed them to see the "light".  I don't know that is a good question.

 

I don't know if any of them have seen the light, though.  Especially not Hessarian's wife.  She seems to still really, really hate Andraste.  Andraste's mother seems ambivalent.  Andraste's friend seems uncomfortable.  

 

 

I think they all point to moving on and coming to terms with their choices in life. Then when the warden meets their particular 'ghost' the whole sense of 'what's done is done, now move on' comes to the fore again. I think it's like that prayer about changing what you can, leaving what you can't and the wisdom to know the difference.

 

Some don't seem to have that wisdom, though (again, thinking of Hessarian's wife).  Hessarian seems to fit that well enough, but most of them are where they were before - either true believers, or enemies of Andraste, or uncomfortable with the faith.  They seem odd choices in a temple made for that religion.

[Hydwn]

I was more interested in the artistic choice of having the Temple's own Gauntlet seem to put the religion it was built for in a weird light.  I should have probably put something in the OP about it not being a pro- or anti-Chantry thread (or the Chantry's real-life analogies)

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I don't really get why people think the Andraste faith is similar to Christianity. Because someone is betrayed to the authorities and gets executed at the 'end'? *shrug*

 

We're not exactly allowed to discuss, or bash, real world religions here, so...let's not incur the wrath of the mods.

 

Where the Gauntlet is concerned, yeah, the whole bit is pretty weird. Have you ever gone there as a City Elf? You're practically blamed for your cousin's rape by the Guardian.

[Hydwn]

I don't really get why people think the Andraste faith is similar to Christianity. Because someone is betrayed to the authorities and gets executed at the 'end'? *shrug*

 

We're not exactly allowed to discuss, or bash, real world religions here, so...let's not incur the wrath of the mods.

 

Where the Gauntlet is concerned, yeah, the whole bit is pretty weird. Have you ever gone there as a City Elf? You're practically blamed for your cousin's rape by the Guardian.

 

Oh wow.  That's disturbing.  I've never played past the Origins with either the city elf or commoner dwarf 0_o

 

It does come up because Andrasteism fills the role of medieval Christianity, just as the qunari are the Thedosian equivalent of the Saracens but you won't find much similar to Islam in their doctrine.  I think David Gaider himself described it as Christianity founded by Joan of Arc instead of Christ - a warrior woman instead of a pacifist man.  But they deliberately changed a lot of things.

 

Still, it seems an odd choice of things, for any religion.  Most of the spirits in the gauntlet aren't believers.  It's interesting for the player, though, because it puts the whole history of the church into question (Shartan is here and his section of the chant has been expunged). It makes less sense from the point of view of the characters themselves, the proto-chantry putting these particular spirits in place.  

 

Unless the spirits there reflect the companions' viewpoints - they're a pretty mixed bag of believers and non-believers, after all.  Maybe a true believer would meet less ambiguous spirits...?

[gottaloveme]

I don't really get why people think the Andraste faith is similar to Christianity. Because someone is betrayed to the authorities and gets executed at the 'end'? *shrug*

 

We're not exactly allowed to discuss, or bash, real world religions here, so...let's not incur the wrath of the mods.

 

Where the Gauntlet is concerned, yeah, the whole bit is pretty weird. Have you ever gone there as a City Elf? You're practically blamed for your cousin's rape by the Guardian.

 

Joan of Arc?

[Bhryaen]

Oh, and on the "Gauntlet is odd in general" theme. Well, yeah. Not just the Guardian's trespasses in your mind (he mocks Wynne as a "tool" for the Chantry... which he isn't at all himself, of course), but the collection of very different "tests" in the Gauntlet makes it unclear who they were supposed to be testing. Guilt trip start- ok, a peasant follower could handle that, and kinda religion-oriented since guilt tends to be one of the mechanisms for manipulation. But not Andraste-related. Then a disjointed history lesson- maybe also to teach or test any followers, except it's done with riddles which require reading comprehension skills rather than any actual historical knowledge (or just lucky multiple choice guessing)- not to mention that wrong answers bring the freaky wraiths. Then you get another guilt trip (which is often quite touching) and a gift before being forced into combat against your whole party... 'cause that's why. Then it's a puzzle to solve... which has nothing to do with anything Andrasteish (but a cool puzzle). And finally a strip tease... erm, "faith" test, yeah. (Well, Guardianboy does watch you going naked after all...) It's more faith that there won't be some trap sprung while your armor is off or something- no reason to trust it at all really. On a stretch it could refer to Andraste being burned, but the tablet doesn't indicate it.

 

So the Gauntlet- touted as the means by which your "true-believer" status as one of the Andraste "faithful" is established- is basically designed for a skilled adventurer without necessarily any affiliation with Andrasteism at all prepared to do battle who can answer puzzles and riddles... and walk around nude. And that's the perfect candidate to approach the Urn (or at least the necessary tour guide). I've always wondered also at how Genitivi figured he'd "open" the Gauntlet for everyone to visit the Urn... since the Guardian (if you've left him alive) kinda had other ideas and it's not exactly a danger-free zone... Genitivi Wonka of the Willy Andraste Factory, present your golden tickets here for entry...

[Hydwn]

So the Gauntlet- touted as the means by which your "true-believer" status as one of the Andraste "faithful" is established- is basically designed for a skilled adventurer without necessarily any affiliation with Andrasteism at all prepared to do battle who can answer puzzles and riddles... and walk around nude. And that's the perfect candidate to approach the Urn (or at least the necessary tour guide). I've always wondered also at how Genitivi figured he'd "open" the Gauntlet for everyone to visit the Urn... since the Guardian (if you've left him alive) kinda had other ideas and it's not exactly a danger-free zone... Genitivi Wonka of the Willy Andraste Factory, present your golden tickets here for entry...

 

Another reason I wonder if the gauntlet adjusts itself to whoever enters.  Maybe a true believer would meet more true-believing spirits.  Maybe a weak person would meet easier tests?  

 

One of theories on how Leliana "comes back" if murdered at the urn is that all the lyrium in the rocks (Oghren mentions it if you bring him) might have produced hallucinations and the Warden only thought they killed her.  Maybe it's so powerful it's like the Fade, and people see what they expect to see there...?  We could cross right into wild-mass-guessing territory, and wonder if there was even an urn there

[Hydwn]

lol.. I don't know what it is about this game that brings out people with an axe to grind against religion. I never see this in D&D discussions, where religions abound and gods are prominent even in the moment of character creation. I think it's being taken way too seriously here.

 

 

Anyways, I never really noticed how the Gauntlet spirits were all overly negative. I'm not sure what it entails though.

 

I think it's because D&D was trying to avoid creating a counterpart to Christianity and went with Pagan and their own deities instead - a similar strategy to Tolkien - whereas the writers for Dragon Age tried to steer quite close to the real-life middle ages.  You can't have a middle ages without a big, centralized church, and while they made a lot of significant changes, the similarities are close enough to make some people uncomfortable.

 

For my own part, I see it more with a writer's eye.  I like their world-building, and I like seeing how they put it together.  It's like how this world had a Hundred Years' War, but their France/Orlais invaded their England/Ferelden rather than the other way around.  Or how they don't have an Egypt but they merged its giant tombs into a medieval Germanic culture in Nevarra.  

 

After posting here, I'm leaning toward the idea that the spirits are there to make you realize just how much the chantry's version differs from the reality.  Either that, or the Warden sees a series of doubting spirits because his party is a mixed group of skeptics and believers, and the gauntlet responds to expectations.

[gottaloveme]

Wasn't this (the temple) all set up before Chantryism came into it's power? So the real Andraste (sooo annoying all singing all dancing) has not long gone to the Maker and the truth still has punch. Afterwards the stories set as an opiate to the masses?

[Hydwn]

Wasn't this (the temple) all set up before Chantryism came into it's power? So the real Andraste (sooo annoying all singing all dancing) has not long gone to the Maker and the truth still has punch. Afterwards the stories set as an opiate to the masses?

 

This is the way I'm leaning after starting this thread.

[Hydwn]

Wasn't this (the temple) all set up before Chantryism came into it's power? So the real Andraste (sooo annoying all singing all dancing) has not long gone to the Maker and the truth still has punch. Afterwards the stories set as an opiate to the masses?

 

This is the way I'm leaning after starting this thread.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Joan of Arc?

 
 

It does come up because Andrasteism fills the role of medieval Christianity, just as the qunari are the Thedosian equivalent of the Saracens but you won't find much similar to Islam in their doctrine.  I think David Gaider himself described it as Christianity founded by Joan of Arc instead of Christ - a warrior woman instead of a pacifist man.

 
Ah, that makes sense. I don't think I've ever seen that quote of Gaider's you mention, but I can see people drawing a Joan of Arc connection without it anyway.
 
It just always confused me that Andraste's story bearing some vague similarities with Joan of Arc somehow means Andrasteism is Christianity. I suppose Muslims would be equally confused about the qunari bit. 
 
 

Still, it seems an odd choice of things, for any religion.  Most of the spirits in the gauntlet aren't believers.  It's interesting for the player, though, because it puts the whole history of the church into question (Shartan is here and his section of the chant has been expunged). It makes less sense from the point of view of the characters themselves, the proto-chantry putting these particular spirits in place.  
 
Unless the spirits there reflect the companions' viewpoints - they're a pretty mixed bag of believers and non-believers, after all.  Maybe a true believer would meet less ambiguous spirits...?

At the moment it's difficult to know if the spirits are actually real. The whole mountain surrounding the Gauntlet is veined with lyrium, though you're only told this if Oghren is in your party. It gives rise to several questions, including if the power of the Ashes themselves is from the Maker or a byproduct of being in the proximity of so much lyrium for so long.

 

This is most likely by design, as the designers want to keep the religion ambiguous as to whether or not the Maker is real (or at least, really a god as he's portrayed).

 

Perhaps making it confusing adds to that?

[Hydwn]

 

Perhaps making it confusing adds to that?

 

That it ties in with never coming down on one side or the other about the Maker?  That would make sense from a metagame perspective.  From an in-world one, though, it's still an odd choice for the original Andrasteans (assuming it is their choice and not a byproduct of the temple and its lyrium).

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

That it ties in with never coming down on one side or the other about the Maker?  That would make sense from a metagame perspective.  From an in-world one, though, it's still an odd choice for the original Andrasteans (assuming it is their choice and not a byproduct of the temple and its lyrium).

 

But are the Andrastians solely responsible for it, or is the content of the visions influenced -- or completely from, from the PC's and companions' minds?

[Hydwn]

But are the Andrastians solely responsible for it, or is the content of the visions influenced -- or completely from, from the PC's and companions' minds?

 

That's what I was wondering.  Maybe there never was an urn, and the Warden just plucked the ashes out of a campfire in a lyrium-induced frenzy of hallucination

[gottaloveme]

Where does that leave Eamon? Maybe the whole thing is unreal and no-one ever really existed? Do you ever feel like your'e part of someone elses story . . .?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

But are the Andrastians solely responsible for it, or is the content of the visions influenced -- or completely from, from the PC's and companions' minds?

Would Shartan have appeared if it was completely from the party's minds? I mean, I know Leiliana is to some degree a heretical thinker, but would she think along the lines of including him?

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

That's what I was wondering.  Maybe there never was an urn, and the Warden just plucked the ashes out of a campfire in a lyrium-induced frenzy of hallucination

 

Better hope they're no darkspawn ashes in there XD

 

 

Where does that leave Eamon? Maybe the whole thing is unreal and no-one ever really existed? Do you ever feel like your'e part of someone elses story . . .?

 

Well, FWIW I think the Urn and the Ashes actually exist as physical things, whether or not the Ashes were Andraste's, and that the Ashes did indeed cure Eamon. But. I don't know how they cured Eamon. I don't know whether they cured him because they were made magical by natural lyrium exposure (which can happen, if you read the descriptions for magical rocks such as Lifestones) or because of divine intervention.

 

 

Would Shartan have appeared if it was completely from the party's minds? I mean, I know Leiliana is to some degree a heretical thinker, but would she think along the lines of including him?

 

Leliana actually has some dialogue about Shartan, if you ask her if she has any Dalish stories. But I don't know, of course. Personally I don't think it all comes from their minds, but I also don't think it's far-fetched to speculate it could be influenced by them.

[Hydwn]

Where does that leave Eamon? Maybe the whole thing is unreal and no-one ever really existed? Do you ever feel like your'e part of someone elses story . . .?

 

I'm not really attached to that theory, just floating it as a possibility

 

If I were to develop the theory further, though, I'd say spirits of faith bolstering the powers of the mage who administered the ashes (and it was a mage in the cutscene) because they like things like that

[Hydwn]

Would Shartan have appeared if it was completely from the party's minds? I mean, I know Leiliana is to some degree a heretical thinker, but would she think along the lines of including him?

 

A fair point, and I was just floating the possibility.  I wasn't really attached to the theory.

 

I'm never sure how much currency the story of Shartan has.  Hawke seems to know of it with no special education in DA2, and Fenris seems to have heard of it though he wasn't even taught to read.  At other times it seems some huge secret the chantry is keeping.

[gottaloveme]

A fair point, and I was just floating the possibility.  I wasn't really attached to the theory.

 

I'm never sure how much currency the story of Shartan has.  Hawke seems to know of it with no special education in DA2, and Fenris seems to have heard of it though he wasn't even taught to read.  At other times it seems some huge secret the chantry is keeping.

 

Why is your stuff coming up twice?