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[renfrees]

There's no Questioning Beliefs on that path.

 

Wait, I thought Saemus figures only as a corpse in Act 2, isn't he? At what point in A2 he interacts with Hawke?

[TheMadHarridan]

You can talk to him in the Keep about the Qunari. If you have Isabela in your party and pick the option about not liking or hating the Qunari, you can get +5 friendship from her.

[renfrees]

Well, that interaction is just a filler and has no impact on anything whatsoever. I'd love to comply, but I don't have a save for this banter, as it doesn't lead anywhere.

[Krypplingz]

I have a save, but no recording device. Which is probably good, since the video would be flagged for inappropriate content. Those tighs...But I'll write the text down. Keep in mind that he is a Diplomatic Hawke by nature, so be gentle. 

 

Spoiler

Saemus: Go away. My father may feel the need to hire your kind, but I don't have to like it.

Diplomatic Hawke
Hawke: I didn't picture Dumar's son being so rude.
Saemus: Shameful, isn't it? How I don't mindlessly repeat the mistakes of my father?
S: So go look for reasons to kill Qunari. Just don't expect me to praise you for it. (Dismissive hand gesture)

Snarky Hawke
Hawke: Well, nice to meet you too. And your problem with me is...?
Saemus: My father has "dealt" with the imagined Qunari threat before, and his first response was armed thugs.
S: I expect this to be no different.
S: But, by all means, tell me how you hate the beasts and all who stand with them. I've heard it all.

Angry Hawke
Hawke: Shouldn't be rude to strangers. You'll get hurt.
Saemus: I've been hurt. That's how I know you're a thug, probably told to find any excuse to attack the Qunari.
S: But by all means, tell me how you hate the beasts and all who stand with them. I've heard it all. 

Then you get the second set of answers.

I don't like or hate the qunari, You're defending heretics or Never take the popular stance get the same responses as a Hawke who rescued Saemus, but there is one new option.

You judge to quickly (Only for snarky or angry Hawke)
Hawke: I've done nothing to you. Or for you, for that matter.
Saemus: Not yet. But people are desperate for a reason to fight the Qunari, who do nothing hateful except exist and be different.
S: If I offend, well- some people try hard to be offended.
S: There are other ways to see the world. The Qunari have shown me that.

 

Well that was long. Feel free to sit down and take a breath. Now in defence of Shame-maus: If Hawke doesn't save him, he's "rescued" by the Winters. In particular the bearded lady who killed Ashaad in front of Saemus. The one who threatened to cut out his tounge to shut him up. Saemus still has his tounge, but I'm willing to bet that the woman did rough him up and shamed him in other ways. She's already verbally belittling him when Hawke arrives, but this time, no one stopped her. I'm also guessing that he got no suport from daddy when he returned home. So Saemus is rightfully angry at his dad and the help he hires. 

 

But this is way off topic...Soooo Aveline is great?

[congokong]

Wow, Saemus is such an idiot for seeing Qunari almost as pacifist monks who mind their own business when they're anything but.

[Cerulione]

But actually he got some backbone to actively defy what's popular (Chantry, the Maker, Andraste etc) to follow what he believes. To us the Maker/Chantry/Andraste is presented in a format that is similar to several real-life religions and it's already much explored in the game, so for us it's quite the "normal" way.

 

anyway, everyone of you who hadn't try to do the matchmaking of Aveline and Donnic in Act 2 should try at least once, and bring Merrill or Isabella. Varric and Fenris and Anders also had their say. It's actually one of the funniest part of the game!

[teh DRUMPf!!]

In Donnics defense, Aveline has probably been harassing him for the last few years. Giving him easier patrols (which he resents, "Don't you trust me?") and probably kept going with her awkward flirting and strange gift giving. Who starts thinking of giving dowry when a minor flirt fails? Without Hawkes push she really comes off as a creeper and shows a side Donnic dislikes. 

To female Hawke on the akward date: "Look, if this was all an attempt to get closer to me through the captain, you're just not my type. All this playing shy business? I like a little backbone."

With all these failing attempts she becomes frustrated. She pours herself into the job, disciplining right and left, since she doesn't really care whether people like her or not, only that they are safe. I think Donnic reins her in a bit if they are married, reminding her that the guards don't want a golem for a captain, they want a person. 

 

It's kind of problematic, though, with the message it sends -- that Aveline needs a man to straighten her out, as if to say there's something wrong with being strong, stoic and independent as a woman.

[Ryzaki]

I really didn't realize that quest with Samus was optional. I'm too used to DA2's but thou must even when you refuse the quest I guess

[Sifr]

It's kind of problematic, though, with the message it sends -- that Aveline needs a man to straighten her out, as if to say there's something wrong with being strong, stoic and independent as a woman.

 

True, but it's the same with Merrill and Anders, who similarly become uber obsessive about the Eluvian and Mage Underground, if you chose not to romance them. Merrill basically becomes a hermit and Varric is forced to send food to her door to remind her to eat, while Anders either becomes even more militant about Mage Freedom or attempts to find a way to control Justice, both which causing him to suffer major mood swings and paranoia.

[Icy Magebane]

It's kind of problematic, though, with the message it sends -- that Aveline needs a man to straighten her out, as if to say there's something wrong with being strong, stoic and independent as a woman.

I wouldn't go that far... I mean, she has no problem with being strong, stoic, and independent either way, she's just harder on the guardsmen and doesn't seem to enjoy her life as much... which is understandable since she hasn't been on a date since her husband died 6 years ago.  Donnic is a man that she secretly loves, and we're looking at how her life turned out if they never got together.  That's all.  There is no hidden message behind this...  If she was comparatively weaker in other situations, like when the Templars attempted to take over the City Guard in Favor and Fault, you might have had a point, but alas, this was not the case...

[RobRam10]

Ughh Donnic that ungrateful wretch! Let me kill him then raise his corpse so I can kill him AGAIN!

[Kenshen]

So if she resigns does another guard become the captain or do the Templars get their wish and consolidate power?

[renfrees]

She is still the Guard-Captain by the time of Last Straw.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I wouldn't go that far... I mean, she has no problem with being strong, stoic, and independent either way, she's just harder on the guardsmen and doesn't seem to enjoy her life as much... which is understandable since she hasn't been on a date since her husband died 6 years ago.  Donnic is a man that she secretly loves, and we're looking at how her life turned out if they never got together.  That's all.  There is no hidden message behind this...  If she was comparatively weaker in other situations, like when the Templars attempted to take over the City Guard in Favor and Fault, you might have had a point, but alas, this was not the case...

 

Well that's just it, though: she needs Donnic's healing male organ love to function in a "more human" way and become respected by her fellow guards. What I love about Aveline is her grit, not anything the romance brings out of her. Why is it not enough for her to just be a tough cookie? No, apparently she needs the man to set her right.

 

Not trying to imply some conspiracy, we live in a male-biased society; it's possible the writer did not realize he was sending that message.

[Icy Magebane]

Well that's just it, though: she needs Donnic's healing male organ love to function in a "more human" way and become respected by her fellow guards. What I love about Aveline is her grit, not anything the romance brings out of her. Why is it not enough for her to just be a tough cookie? No, apparently she needs the man to set her right.

 

Not trying to imply some conspiracy, we live in a male-biased society; it's possible the writer did not realize he was sending that message.

Give me a break... you're obviously looking for this kind of message so you're going to see it even if it's not really there.  Unless you have proof that this is what the writer intended you have no right to make such claims.  Nothing in the game supports this interpretation, and your gender bias is really obvious. 

 

"Not trying to imply some conspiracy..." yeah, ok.  If Aveline was a lesbian and this conversation was about the result of not helping her go on a date with another woman, you wouldn't be making this argument even if the storylines were otherwise identical.  You aren't fooling anyone.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I just showed you what supports it: the guards cannot respect Aveline as she is, only if she is an item with Donnic. I am not making that up, it is how the story goes, and your baseless accusations of me do not change that.

[Krypplingz]

 I just showed you what supports it: the guards cannot respect Aveline as she is, only if she is an item with Donnic. I am not making that up, it is how the story goes, and your baseless accusations of me do not change that.

 

Part of Avelines lonely hearts codex:

"Her guards could give a Fereldan battalion a run for their coin, and she commands their undying respect; however, all would agree that she's the hardest captain they have ever served"

In short: The guards love Aveline, but she scares the ****** out of them. 

When she's dating Donnic, he becomes the middle man the guard can complain to and then he can voice their concern to Aveline. Like a confidant in an office job. Same thing could be done by another guard (Brennan for example) if the developers had given us that option.

[Icy Magebane]

 I just showed you what supports it: the guards cannot respect Aveline as she is, only if she is an item with Donnic. I am not making that up, it is how the story goes, and your baseless accusations of me do not change that.

"Baseless?"  The wording of your posts tells me everything I need to know.  "Healing male organ" indeed...  There's nothing cute or funny about misandry.

 

The fact is that Aveline commands the respect of her guardsmen with or without Donnic, and the main differences between the two versions of her is that she's tougher on the guards and less comfortable around Donnic.  There is also a very minor change in her mood when talking to Varric which is easily explained by the fact that she has to work with somebody she's been in love with for years and never found the courage to approach.  Of course she would have little interest in romance novels about the city guard if she's upset over an unrequited love...  Aveline is no less stoic or independent, and she is not weaker because she doesn't have Donnic around...  she still has the courage to stand up to Meredith, Cullen, every Templar who attempts to apply pressure to her, Jevon, etc...  and look how many men are on that list.  Shouldn't you be rather impressed by that?  Don't you have anything you want to read into her fierce opposition to the various men who are trying to bring her down?  Let's ignore the fact that all of those men report to a woman, though... that wouldn't help your cause (well, not Jevon the outlaw, but w/e... I'm sure you see what I'm getting at).

 

I think I'm done here.  The events of the game do not support your claims in any way.  Dragon Age his given us countless strong female characters, from legendary heroines to the rulers of the most powerful nations to the leaders of the Chantry... heck, even some of the most powerful Qunari leaders are primarily female.  Yet every weakness they have winds up being blamed on or related back to men for some reason... Earlier you said "we live in a male-baised society."  Well guess what?  Thedas isn't biased in favor of males... not by a long shot.  Perhaps you should look at Thedosian societies when analyzing Dragon Age characters rather than attempt to bring real world issues into the setting and attribute hidden messages on the part of writers who have clearly gone out of their way to cater to women and give them more power than they've ever had on Earth.

 

Okay, now I really am done.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

"Baseless?"  The wording of your posts tells me everything I need to know.  "Healing male organ" indeed...  There's nothing cute or funny about misandry.

 

lol, you do not even understand what I am saying here, do you?

 

You are arguing against some claim I have not made: I never said Aveline is less stoic or independent post-romance.

 

The events of the game do not support your claims in any way.

 

Except when they do, then you just ignore it. And here it is again for you to ignore (dialogue following Favor and Fault):

 

Donnic (if romanced): ~ the guards here will follow you through the void.

Donnic (not romanced): "You're a b---"

 

Let me spell that out for you: if she has gotten laid, she goes on to be liked/admired by the guards. If she has not gotten laid, they go on to see her as a b---. You say she is no less herself post-romance, and I do not reject that. So what is the cause-and-effect here with her approval and non-approval, if that is not the cause of them? One thing we do know changes between those two variables is that she's content if romanced. I suspect her changed demeanor as a result of Donnic is what makes her men more accepting of her. I do not like that development. Why? I believe she can be admired by those following her just for being who she is, and developments in her private life are irrelevant to her persona -- I know that's all the reason I need to love her.

 

Do not go attacking me if that bothers you; I did not write it.

[Mykel54]

She is a Fereldan who is giving orders to Kirkwall´s guards, so of course they take concern. If she marries Donnic, then she softens up a bit her discipline, plus now the guards don´t see her as a foreign fereldan, because she married a kirkwaller. And not just any random Kirkwaller, but a city guard. It is logical that the guards like her better in that scenario.

[Tielis]

lol, you do not even understand what I am saying here, do you?

 

You are arguing against some claim I have not made: I never said Aveline is less stoic or independent post-romance.

 

 

Except when they do, then you just ignore it. And here it is again for you to ignore (dialogue following Favor and Fault):

 

Donnic (if romanced): ~ the guards here will follow you through the void.

Donnic (not romanced): "You're a b---"

 

Let me spell that out for you: if she has gotten laid, she goes on to be liked/admired by the guards. If she has not gotten laid, they go on to see her as a b---. You say she is no less herself post-romance, and I do not reject that. So what is the cause-and-effect here with her approval and non-approval, if that is not the cause of them? One thing we do know changes between those two variables is that she's content if romanced. I suspect her changed demeanor as a result of Donnic is what makes her men more accepting of her. I do not like that development. Why? I believe she can be admired by those following her just for being who she is, and developments in her private life are irrelevant to her persona -- I know that's all the reason I need to love her.

 

Do not go attacking me if that bothers you; I did not write it.

 

Miserable people make other people miserable.  That's all the not-romanced Aveline means.  Haven't you ever experienced this in real life?

 

When she is with her true love, she is a happier person.

[Lukas Kristjanson]

Donnic (if romanced): ~ the guards here will follow you through the void.

Donnic (not romanced): "You're a b---"
*snip*

Do not go attacking me if that bothers you; I did not write it.

 

I did. Please don't quote half a sentence, as context is important when contentious language is deliberately used. In the scene, Donnic arrives stating that the guards are waiting for orders. Aveline asks if they will still accept them, effectively straight-up asking if they still have confidence in her. Donnic's full response on this path is:

 

Donnic: May I speak freely?

Donnic: You’re a b****, but you’re ours. The doubters are dead and we still need you.

Donnic: Captain.

-He leaves

Aveline: I'll take it.

 

I broke the lines up like that because the initial "May I speak freely," Donnic's final "Captain," and Aveline's "I'll take it" are intentionally the same lines/links on both paths, so that both versions start and end with the same tone. Relationships in DA2 are defined by "friendship" and "rivalry," both leading to respect that is sometimes independent of whether characters like each other or not. With the romance, Aveline assumes a "one of us" leader archetype. Without it, a "harsh but respected" leader archetype. For the first, Donnic congratulates a lover. For the second, he levels with a hard-ass. But the "captain" part--that the guards recognize and need her ability--is a constant.

[Diefenbaker]

One other thing... her banter with Varric changes as well.  I was playing DA2 earlier today and when Varric brought up his writing, she was disinterested and he said that he'd lost his inspiration...  it was clearly in reference to her lack of a love life, since it replaces the banter where he teases her about it in playthroughs where she and Donnic got married.  So I guess this means that there won't be a sequel to "Hard in Hightown." 

 

Limp in Lowtown?

[WarriorOfLight999]

Thank you for the insight Lukas.

 

My opinion of Avelines' arc isn't that she 'needs a man' in order to be complete. It's that she has spent her entire life fighting, protecting others, etc, and this intensified after the death of Wesley. But eventually, the want to move on is something she can't ignore, nor should she. I see it as Aveline finally going after something for herself rather than others.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Miserable people make other people miserable.  That's all the not-romanced Aveline means.  Haven't you ever experienced this in real life?

 

When she is with her true love, she is a happier person.

 

No, because

 

 

In all seriousness, though, yes, I can relate. I know I feel much happier in general when in a loving relationship. Who isn't? Also, there was a period of time where I similarly had feelings for someone but could not communicate that effectively to the person. Privately, it was a torment. Publicly, though? I do not think it had any real impact on things like how I interacted with people and carried out my every day activities. I'll concede that not everyone deals with these issues the same way, though, so maybe it's just my inability to understand.

 

Just let me be clear: I have no problem with Aveline being happier with Donnic, I think what I take issue with is that this one particular group of people do not accept her until/unless they are an item. I mean, they do "accept" her, but in a clearly inferior kind of way. I always do that set of quests, though, so it's not some big issue I cannot get over, just something that raised an eyebrow when I compared the two outcomes.