Dude, that's Jecht.
That's not Jecht, Jecht carries a bottle of booze on his hip. Oh that and he's constantly making fun of Titus.
"You, with a woman? You can't even catch a ball! Oh, what's the matter? Gonna cry again? Cry, cry. That's the only thing you're good for!"
I'm having a hard time with this. I feel this discussion is kind of complaining about good graphics.
It's complaining about how skill effects which could only be affected/caused by magic are being classified as purely phsyical skills even though there is no way to bring about those kinds of effects without magic.
The problem isn't the flashiness in and of itself, it's what that flashiness suggests/requires within the confines of the game world.
Well for me it isn't just the look of the effects, but the skills themselves. Purely physical skills should be limited to only what a real person could do. So a rogue couldn't dodge an explosion, a fighter couldn't hit multiple enemies in one swing or block all damage from an explosion using just a shield on their arm.
It's complaining about how skill effects which could only be affected/caused by magic are being classified as purely phsyical skills even though there is no way to bring about those kinds of effects without magic.
The problem isn't the flashiness in and of itself, it's what that flashiness suggests/requires within the confines of the game world.
Lore will never make sense with an actual RPG plot, because the plot requires the superhuman PC to vastly outshine any sensible limit that could be imposed on a person by the physical rules of the world.
lets put it this way: rogues and warriors are relatable to our reality so we expect them not to light up like a christmas tree when striking someone.
too much flashy interferes with suspension of disbelief and it looks kitchy.
lets put it this way: rogues and warriors are relatable to our reality so we expect them not to light up like a christmas tree when striking someone.
Just that they're not relatable to our reality, not even remotely.
And I do get why some people don't like certain Rogue animations, but what exactly is supposed to be wrong with the Warrior's? I just don't see it.
lets put it this way: rogues and warriors are relatable to our reality so we expect them not to light up like a christmas tree when striking someone.
too much flashy interferes with suspension of disbelief and it looks kitchy.
Lore will never make sense with an actual RPG plot, because the plot requires the superhuman PC to vastly outshine any sensible limit that could be imposed on a person by the physical rules of the world.
Nonsense.
This could all be explained by having the skills actually be magical. Simply have the characters the player brings along on the journey be mages who didn't belong to a Circle and became mercenaries to avoid detection by the Chantry. So it would make sense that a character would have learned to integrate magic into their fighting.
And magic/magical-tech usually exists in every RPG, so it could all easily be explained by defining the character's abilities as being an unusually strong mage. In fact, in most RPGs the magical systems in most RPGs are so comprehensive and similar that they could easily explain away the character's strength in that fashion and have that strength make sense within the confines of the game world.
Much better than the "because ninjas" trope.
A good writer can make the audience believe that what they are seeing could actually take place within the confines of the fictional world.
Nonsense.
This could all be explained by having the skills actually be magical. Simply have the characters the player brings along on the journey be mages who didn't belong to a Circle and became mercenaries to avoid detection by the Chantry. So it would make sense that a character would have learned to integrate magic into their fighting.
And magic/magical-tech usually exists in every RPG, so it could all easily be explained by defining the character's abilities as being an unusually strong mage. In fact, in most RPGs the magical systems in most RPGs are so comprehensive and similar that they could easily explain away the character's strength in that fashion and have that strength make sense within the confines of the game world.
Much better than the "because ninjas" trope.
Lore will never make sense with an actual RPG plot, because the plot requires the superhuman PC to vastly outshine any sensible limit that could be imposed on a person by the physical rules of the world.
Obviously, there has to be some level of exaggeration of abilties and gameplay/lore segregation. Anyone who tries to pretent otherwise either has never played a game or has no idea how reality actually works. And in general, this is not a problem, we can accept going a certain way beyond "realistic" without it breaking the illusion of realism. Thing is, there comes a point where this segreatation goes beyond the believable. Personally, warrior/rogue abilties in DA:O generally stayed the right side of this line. DA2 started to drift over this in a few cases - things like rogues teleporting. DA:I looks like it might eb going even further, and I, and seemingly many others, find that this kind of thing harms our ability to suspend our disbelief.
Your explanation just amounts to "just make them all superhuman". Sure, that's a solution. But that's not the solution Bioware chose. They try and have mundane warriors. Except that's impossible given the lore.
If the story requires that they be superhumans, then making them superhumans is the necessary solution,
If you want mundane warriors, then they need to be mundane warriors. If you don't want them to be confined to the restrictions imposed by being mundane warriors then don't make them mundane warriors. It's so obvious it's stupid.
Obviously, there has to be some level of exaggeration of abilties and gameplay/lore segregation. Anyone who tries to pretent otherwise either has never played a game or has no idea how reality actually works. And in general, this is not a problem, we can accept going a certain way beyond "realistic" without it breaking the illusion of realism. Thing is, there comes a point where this segreatation goes beyond the believable. Personally, warrior/rogue abilties in DA:O generally stayed the right side of this line. DA2 started to drift over this in a few cases - things like rogues teleporting. DA:I looks like it might eb going even further, and I, and seemingly many others, find that this kind of thing harms our ability to suspend our disbelief.
This. I love flash and am a big fan of it, but only on 2 conditions. One is that it fits the game and atmosphere. Something like Kingdom Hearts or Final Fantasy and junk. And the second condition, it doesn't interfere with what I am doing. I am still able to see whats going on and can make out things. Some flash from Dragon Age is good, but this mostly should come mages. When 4 guys are using abilities and everything is flashy its a cluster of fireworks that makes it hard to distinguish things.
Not to mention the believability of rogues and warriors. Its just crossing the line waaay too much, especially with Varric, that right there is just ridiculous
Heheh, I play Borderlands. I think I can handle a few crazy effects and colours on the screen. :3
Your explanation just amounts to "just make them all superhuman". Sure, that's a solution. But that's not the solution Bioware chose. They try and have mundane warriors. Except that's impossible given the lore.
Depends on what you mean by 'mundane'. They do have to be more durable and stronger than people can be in our world, and they have to have some innate ability to withstand magic.
I consider the average person in Thedas to be more or less like the average person in our world. The difference is that some people can attain strength, endurance and so forth that would be superhuman in our world.
That's why I am okay with all warrior and rogue abilities whose content and animation can be explained in terms of being extremely strong or agile. But there is no plausible connection between strength and glowy lights.
Surprised no devs have responded to this.
Surprised no devs have responded to this.
Considering this topic is only 6 pages and there are detractors on both sides I think its not a huge issue as faceman said if it cuts into their sale numbers then they would change it. Now the qunrai hair topic people are pretty serious about that considering its on 100 pages now.
Considering this topic is only 6 pages and there are detractors on both sides I think its not a huge issue as faceman said if it cuts into their sale numbers then they would change it. Now the qunrai hair topic people are pretty serious about that considering its on 100 pages now.
Yeah, pretty much this. After 2 days the Qunari hairstyle, no healing and no attribute allocation topics all had like 5 to 10 times more input than this one.
I see people on both sides are using the word "realistic" and I don't think that word applies to what we are talking here.
A fantasy game is never going to be realistic, what it can be is believable and coherent with the rules that govern its world.
The lore clearly states that Templars and Reaver are people that even though aren't born with the gift of magic, have acquired it through diferent means: Lyrium in the case of Templars, blood magic/demons in the case of Reavers.
Now at no point in previous games it is stated that a rogue needs lyrium or blood magic to be able enter stealth, or to use DA2 backstab o back-to-back. Yet stealth looks exactly the same than the Ethereal form spell showcased on monday's livestream, and backstab looks like that "Fade jump" or whatever is called that Vivienne uses.
Some are saying that given the enemies we are facing ( demons, golems, dragons, whatever... ) non-mages need to be superhuman. The funny thing is that in Baldur's Gate ( Forgotten Realms, D&D ruleset version 2-3 ) rogues and warriors weren't superhuman, they had magical equipment that could made them superhuman ( superhuman here being any attribute above 18 as per D&D ruleset ). But even then the strength of the warrior was in how masterful s/he was with a weapon. The same applied to rogues, and regardless of how BG implemnted it, stealth in D&D works based on the rogue skill and the enviroment, a rogue can't go into stealth in the middle of a battle, in the open with the sun shinning brightly, stealth is an exploration skill.
Another exemple could be Geralt of Rivia, he is a mutant that recieved special training to fight supernatural monsters, he even is able to use some magic ( glyphs ), yet the way The Witcher games implemented combat was believable within its setting. ( NOTE: I only played the first game so I don't know if things have changed since )
So the problem is not what enemies we are facing, or that it is impossible to reconcile lore with game-play in a fantasy game.
Qunari hair and Varric's chest hair(sic!) are extremely important for bsn.Considering this topic is only 6 pages and there are detractors on both sides I think its not a huge issue as faceman said if it cuts into their sale numbers then they would change it. Now the qunrai hair topic people are pretty serious about that considering its on 100 pages now.
I see people on both sides are using the word "realistic" and I don't think that word applies to what we are talking here.
A fantasy game is never going to be realistic, what it can be is believable and coherent with the rules that govern its world.
The lore clearly states that Templars and Reaver are people that even though aren't born with the gift of magic, have acquired it through diferent means: Lyrium in the case of Templars, blood magic/demons in the case of Reavers.
Now at no point in previous games it is stated that a rogue needs lyrium or blood magic to be able enter stealth, or to use DA2 backstab o back-to-back. Yet stealth looks exactly the same than the Ethereal form spell showcased on monday's livestream, and backstab looks like that "Fade jump" or whatever is called that Vivienne uses.
Some are saying that given the enemies we are facing ( demons, golems, dragons, whatever... ) non-mages need to be superhuman. The funny thing is that in Baldur's Gate ( Forgotten Realms, D&D ruleset version 2-3 ) rogues and warriors weren't superhuman, they had magical equipment that could made them superhuman ( superhuman here being any attribute above 18 as per D&D ruleset ). But even then the strength of the warrior was in how masterful s/he was with a weapon. The same applied to rogues, and regardless of how BG implemnted it, stealth in D&D works based on the rogue skill and the enviroment, a rogue can't go into stealth in the middle of a battle, in the open with the sun shinning brightly, stealth is an exploration skill.
Another exemple could be Geralt of Rivia, he is a mutant that recieved special training to fight supernatural monsters, he even is able to use some magic ( glyphs ), yet the way The Witcher games implemented combat was believable within its setting. ( NOTE: I only played the first game so I don't know if things have changed since )
So the problem is not what enemies we are facing, or that it is impossible to reconcile lore with game-play in a fantasy game.
Well this is not dnd, this is not the witcher completely different settings and games. Their world is different, the rules of their world is different. Now for rogue how are they meant to represent how the rogue fights? If ALL you stealth skills were effected by lightning and place no one would use it, and the backstab is simply to represent the rogue moving behind the enemy quickly and back stabbing them and to quickly get you behind the enemy.
Honestly I do not wish for the rogue to go back to how they were in DAO because that's all they were good for is shuffling behind a target and doing the same single animation of backstabbing to do damage it looked silly and dull. Oh and stealth in DAO was not worth using. As I said if the lights bother you so much lower the particle effects. What is personally annoying me is that people modded out the effects in DAO because it was "too much" it was one of the most popular mods of DAO. Then we come to DA2 then people cry ZOMG they went overboard and now in DAI they bought it back for a balance between both games.
STILL people are not pleased what the heck is then? Its just the case that bioware can't please everyone and considering how much gameplay has been shown and barely anyone is complaining about this going from gamefaqs, to youtube etc.
I feel that you are in the minority for this issue. Its been this way in the books, codex's and in the games normal people doing shocking things even within the books its how bioware's fantasy world is. I am sorry you are expecting a change which is highly likely not going to happen.
Now my opinion on DA2?
Honestly I feel the way combat was represented in DA2 was a little out there but combat in its base form? The mechanics of it? Is miles better than DAO especially when it comes to balance. The only thing that killed it was the wave system. I just find it surprising that this topic is coming up now of all times when the game is a few weeks away considering they also shown combat in the past and no one raised up an issue considering most I hear was wow they got a good medium between both games.
Well I simply agree to disagree issue I think.
Lore will never make sense with an actual RPG plot, because the plot requires the superhuman PC to vastly outshine any sensible limit that could be imposed on a person by the physical rules of the world.
It will, if we all remember that gameplay doesn't strictly = lore. For example, we see Leliana's head get cut off, and she dies... But I doubt there is a "Did you by chance land an execution animation for Leliana?" option in the DA Keep.
Another good example is healing potions, in any game. They are there mostly for balance reasons, because we need to heal from something because no body wants to back track, barely move at camp for weeks while they wait for their wounds to heal.
But it isn't lore-breaking to say that a group of experienced leaders like Cassandra, Bull, Blackwall, etc know how to fight and do it better than others who have probably not even been in an actual fight before. In game, we don't see that reflected, but if it was a book we would be able to see "The Freeman looked to be only 20, and held his sword clumsily. He looked at Cassandra and raised his sword, his face screwed up with fear and adrenaline. Cassandra remembered her first real fight, and took no pleasure in easily cutting down the youth." and know Cassandra has an advantage not because she is important to the plot, but because she has much more experience in fighting.
To relate back to the original topic, I know a book wouldn't describe all the lights going off and magic rings on the ground. Its a gameplay element to show the player that the game is responsive and their ability has gone off and is awesome; Its just over the top. Tone down the lights please, I don't care if that still means temporarily edging blades with purple light I just don't want (as I've said before) every fight to look like a fireworks show.
Well strange I assume bioware has added a particle effect option and you can use that to turn the effects down I recall them mentioning having such an option I think. I mean most games have such an option.
Well strange I assume bioware has added a particle effect option and you can use that to turn the effects down I recall them mentioning having such an option I think. I mean most games have such an option.
then that ruins spells as well. Them being flashy is great, warriors and rogues being as flashy as mages isn't
And this is the reason why mods are a beautiful thing. Hopefully despite DAI not being mod friendly, someone very talented will come around and tone down the firework combat effects for Warriors/Rouges, it would be nicer to have them perform sophisticated animations rather than splash some neon on a generic slash to show that it is an ''ability'' being used, this isn't an MMO where you need to recognise abilities by their particle effects, you can pause the game and check what abilities are being used. I just don't see what is cool about having bursts of colours going off (unless it's magic being used, templar/reaver,mage) as opposed to physical brutal combat, which can be achieved without excessive gore. *sigh*
The dark fantasy just got a lot less darker....
And this is the reason why mods are a beautiful thing. Hopefully despite DAI not being mod friendly, someone very talented will come around and tone down the firework combat effects for Warriors/Rouges, it would be nicer to have them perform sophisticated animations rather than splash some neon on a generic slash to show that it is an ''ability'' being used, this isn't an MMO where you need to recognise abilities by their particle effects, you can pause the game and check what abilities are being used. I just don't see what is cool about having bursts of colours going off (unless it's magic being used, templar/reaver,mage) as opposed to physical brutal combat, which can be achieved without excessive gore. *sigh*
The dark fantasy just got a lot less darker....
yea, I have to agree.
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