187 réponses à ce sujet

[Shahadem]

I see people on both sides are using the word "realistic" and I don't think that word applies to what we are talking here.

A fantasy game is never going to be realistic, what it can be is believable and coherent with the rules that govern its world.

The lore clearly states that Templars and Reaver are people that even though aren't born with the gift of magic, have acquired it through diferent means: Lyrium in the case of Templars, blood magic/demons in the case of Reavers.

Now at no point in previous games it is stated that a rogue needs lyrium or blood magic to be able enter stealth, or to use DA2 backstab o back-to-back. Yet stealth looks exactly the same than the Ethereal form spell showcased on monday's livestream, and backstab looks like that "Fade jump" or whatever is called that Vivienne uses.


Some are saying that given the enemies we are facing ( demons, golems, dragons, whatever... ) non-mages need to be superhuman. The funny thing is that in Baldur's Gate ( Forgotten Realms, D&D ruleset version 2-3 ) rogues and warriors weren't superhuman, they had magical equipment that could made them superhuman ( superhuman here being any attribute above 18 as per D&D ruleset ). But even then the strength of the warrior was in how masterful s/he was with a weapon. The same applied to rogues, and regardless of how BG implemnted it, stealth in D&D works based on the rogue skill and the enviroment, a rogue can't go into stealth in the middle of a battle, in the open with the sun shinning brightly, stealth is an exploration skill.

Another exemple could be Geralt of Rivia, he is a mutant that recieved special training to fight supernatural monsters, he even is able to use some magic ( glyphs ), yet the way The Witcher games implemented combat was believable within its setting. ( NOTE: I only played the first game so I don't know if things have changed since )

So the problem is not what enemies we are facing, or that it is impossible to reconcile lore with game-play in a fantasy game.
 

 

DnD is one of the weird systems. But you are misunderstanding its implications.

 

Firstly, in DnD (old DnD), strength is king. Whether or not you will hit and how much damage you will deal is determined by your strength. This is because the attacker's attack roll, determined principally by their str modifier, is compared against the defender's armor class to determine if there is a hit. The defender's armor class is based both on their ability to dodge an attack and on the ability of their armor/hide to prevent blows of insufficient strength from penetrating the armor/hide. Dragons, despite being extremely large and thus easy to hit, have naturally tough hides which are hard to damage because their naturally strong hides can withstand fairly powerful blows which gives dragons a very large reduction to their chance to be hit score despite being unable to dodge attacks due to their large size. Likewise a dragon, because of its large size, has a much higher natural strength and natural strength cap than something like a human who won't have a natural strength higher than 18/100. But a smaller creature like a gnome will have a lower maximum natural strength cap, maybe 16 max. In DnD, your size determines how strong you can naturally be, with larger creatures being naturally stronger than small creatures. That all makes perfect sense.

 

A characters strength can be increased via magic, either through direct magic manipulation or through the indirect magic that is applied by wearing magical equipment. Again this all makes sense. As a character levels up, they begin to become a more magical being, the essence of the character becomes more magical/divine. Thus a character's natural attributes can be improved, allowing character's to become superhuman by the property of their becoming a magical being. If the character levels high enough, they have become so magical that they are classified as a god and gain access to special spells, abilities and modifiers. So the DnD explanation for characters becoming stronger is still magic.

 

A character who is level 1 is mundane, and their stats are limited by the physical limitations of their race. As their level increases they become magical/more magical and this change to their makeup allows them to surpass the physical limitations of their race and become more superhuman.

 

Also Templars don't learn to transpose the fade onto reality. A templar learns to withstand mental magic and magical changes to their person (ie they learn to prevent fade that is transposed onto their person from making changes to their person). That's why lyrium isn't needed for a templar to use her abilities.

[AshenEndymion]

Also Templars don't learn to transpose the fade onto reality. A templar learns to withstand mental magic and magical changes to their person (ie they learn to prevent fade that is transposed onto their person from making changes to their person). That's why lyrium isn't needed for a templar to use her abilities.

 

Two things:  First, Templar abilities like Silence aren't internal changes(affecting only the Templar), thus they are transposing the fade onto reality when they use such abilities.  Second, Alistair was highly misinformed.  Templars may not need lyrium to learn their abilities, but they need lyrium for those abilities to be effective.

[abnocte]

Well this is not dnd, this is not the witcher completely different settings and games. Their world is different, the rules of their world is different.

May be I didn't explain myself properly.

Dragon Age it's neither D&D or The Witcher, that's true. I wasn't trying to say that.
The point I was trying to make is that other fantasy settings, like D&D and The Witcher, have been made into videogames, and those videogames are coherent with their respective lore.

For example, in D&D warriors and rogues have no magic, just like in Dragon Age with the exception of Templars and Reavers. Since both setting have this in common my assumption is that warriors and rogues will play basically the same.

And since that is not the case I see a conflict between DA gameplay and its own lore.

 

Now for rogue how are they meant to represent how the rogue fights? If ALL you stealth skills were effected by lightning and place no one would use it, and the backstab is simply to represent the rogue moving behind the enemy quickly and back stabbing them and to quickly get you behind the enemy.

Honestly I do not wish for the rogue to go back to how they were in DAO because that's all they were good for is shuffling behind a target and doing the same single animation of backstabbing to do damage it looked silly and dull. Oh and stealth in DAO was not worth using.

I used stealth to plan ambushes, divide enemy forces and assassinate mages that carelessly remained in their positions when their allies run to meet the rest of my party.

Stealth in DAO was great, but poorly implemented ( turning into smoke...    )
 

As I said if the lights bother you so much lower the particle effects. What is personally annoying me is that people modded out the effects in DAO because it was "too much" it was one of the most popular mods of DAO.

I don't understand why you should be bothered by what other people do at their houses.

And my PC is in the low end specs so of course I will tone done graphics, I won't compromise performance over flashyness.
 

Then we come to DA2 then people cry ZOMG they went overboard and now in DAI they bought it back for a balance between both games.

Are you talking about the animations or the effects? Because with the footage I've seen I dare to say that DAI has more effects than DA2, though the animations are tonned down.

 

STILL people are not pleased what the heck is then? Its just the case that bioware can't please everyone and considering how much gameplay has been shown and barely anyone is complaining about this going from gamefaqs, to youtube etc. 
 
I feel that you are in the minority for this issue. Its been this way in the books, codex's and in the games normal people doing shocking things even within the books its how bioware's fantasy world is. I am sorry you are expecting a change which is highly likely not going to happen. 
 
Now my opinion on DA2?
 
Honestly I feel the way combat was represented in DA2 was a little out there but combat in its base form? The mechanics of it? Is miles better than DAO especially when it comes to balance. The only thing that killed it was the wave system. I just find it surprising that this topic is coming up now of all times when the game is a few weeks away considering they also shown combat in the past and no one raised up an issue considering most I hear was wow they got a good medium between both games. 
 
Well I simply agree to disagree issue I think.

 

People have been complaining about the effects since DAO was released. And here and here for example, you can see that it has been brought up before when talking about DAI.

 

And I don't expect anything to change between now and DAI release except the number of bugs the game has, yet I see no reason not to voice my concerns.

[Treacherous J Slither]

After watching some YouTube videos I admit that all the flashy effects threw me off at first but I got used to it pretty quickly.

[Cavemandiary]

The majority?  You took a scientific poll did you?  Please keep your personal opinions to yourself, instead of projecting them onto "the majority".

 

For what its worth, I thought DA2's combat was terrible and a severe downgrade from Origins.

 

If you´ve been following the feedback that players have been given throughout the years, you would come to the same conclusion. You´re perfectly entitled to your opinion, but yes, the general consensus seems to be that combat was improved in DA2 over DA:O. Plus the devs have insinuated the same on several occasions.

[seraphymon]

If you´ve been following the feedback that players have been given throughout the years, you would come to the same conclusion. You´re perfectly entitled to your opinion, but yes, the general consensus seems to be that combat was improved in DA2 over DA:O. Plus the devs have insinuated the same on several occasions.

I dont think that is the consensus at all. Some aspects of combat were, mostly being the responsiveness and smoothness. But combat overall? I've found that people are mostly split.. Me?  given the choices, good and bad aspects. DAO was better IMO

[Bigdoser]

I dont think that is the consensus at all. Some aspects of combat were, mostly being the responsiveness and smoothness. But combat overall? I've found that people are mostly split.. Me?  given the choices, good and bad aspects. DAO was better IMO

I am personally in the camp that the base combat mechanics were better than DAO. Don't personally care all that much for the animations or swinging the two handed sword like it weighs a feather. 

[seraphymon]

I am personally in the camp that the base combat mechanics were better than DAO. Don't personally care all that much for the animations or swinging the two handed sword like it weighs a feather. 

Guess it is a matter of how you define the base combat mechanics?

[Bigdoser]

Guess it is a matter of how you define the base combat mechanics?

Well a lot more skills are now useful, there is more freedom in builds  and who you can take with you and the cross class combo's brings another layer to combat and working together as a party. Plus the shuffling is gone man I hated that which is a bonus! 

 

Plus combat is not about chugging down potions considering the ease of healing and how incredibly easy it is to make potions which trivializes everything. So yeah overall a part from the speed of the melee animations and how some of the skills are preformed I prefer it over DAO. 

 

But mages I got no complaints about them in DAO they looked silly glad they are sticking with the same staff attack and the spell animations look great in inquisition. 

[eyezonlyii]

Well a lot more skills are now useful, there is more freedom in builds  and who you can take with you and the cross class combo's brings another layer to combat and working together as a party. Plus the shuffling is gone man I hated that which is a bonus! 

 

Plus combat is not about chugging down potions considering the ease of healing and how incredible easy it is to make potions which trivializes everything. So yeah overall a part from the speed of the melee animations and how some of the skills are preformed I prefer it over DAO. 

 

But mages I got no complaints about them in DAO they looked silly glad they are sticking with the same staff attack and the spell animations look great in inquisition. 

That is until an enemy gets close. For some reason they won't remember that they can use that fancy twirling baton to smack someone across the face

[Kleon]

Yet another thing that brings DAI closer to DA2. 

 

What makes me laugh is metacritic scores for DAO and DA2.

 

DAO metascore: 91    User score: 8.6

DA2 metascore: 82     User score: 4.3

 

One could say that user score more acuratly represents people who actually buy the game, not review it for money. DA2 was obviously a step in the wrong direction. The direction of JRPGs. DA2 even had its own Dante and called it Fenris. We already know from every footage that oversized swords are deffinietly back, so even if there is no Dante, the idea of it remains.

 

Rogues and warriors looking like mages? Whats the point of mages then? It looks like both rogues and warrior can easily perform magical feats, they even outperform mages at some, although less flashy. Warriors just build up guard and it just seems to stay there, barrier just runs out and guard stays on, 1:0 for warriors. Rogues become invisble and teleport while mages can do neither, 2:0 for rogues.

 

I have no idea if DAI story will be good, however I am expecting the old tired BioWare formula to return, which is a bit of a bummer. They at least tried to do something different in that department in DA2.

 

Excluding the story, so far the only things that DAI seems to be doing better than DA2 are: graphics,crafting, enviroment (THE CAVE is on vacation - will probably return for DA4) and possibly lower amount of companions written to be annoying just to be annoying, eveyrthing else is either simplified, dumbed down or removed. With this rate in DA4 we will just choose a skill tree and the game will automaticly buy spells for us at level up with 4 active abiilities limit and in DA5 we will just choose a role in character creator and get 4 active abilities for all game. Swinging a sword will create a rainbow and rogues will cause explosions with every backstab. 

 

One could say that brining up the abilties limit is pointless in this discusion, however I think that with constant simplification, dumbing down and making the game look like a freaking kamehameha show people who buy Dragon Age are treated like halfwits. It is all a part of a bigger picture.

[Bigdoser]

That is until an enemy gets close. For some reason they won't remember that they can use that fancy twirling baton to smack someone across the face

The breach has caused amnesia you should now this eyezonlyii! 

 

 

Personally have no idea why they decided to get rid of the melee staff animation in DAI. 

[Kleon]

 

The breach has caused amnesia you should now this eyezonlyii! 

 

 

Personally have no idea why they decided to get rid of the melee staff animation in DAI. 

 

 

Resources^TM 

 

And showing the more dsitinct role of mages. God forbid someone would confuse a mage with a warrior.

 

Wait... warriors can create firewalls and rogues teleport...?

[eyezonlyii]

Resources^TM 

 

And showing the more dsitinct role of mages. God forbid someone would confuse a mage with a warrior.

 

Wait... warriors can create firewalls and rogues teleport...?

I really would love a game with Dragon Age level story and Dragon's Dogma type combat for warriors and rogues. also give mages a second option. Staff focused combat or Avatar or Fullmetal type martial arts that infuse magic with physical combat.

[seraphymon]

Well a lot more skills are now useful, there is more freedom in builds  and who you can take with you and the cross class combo's brings another layer to combat and working together as a party. Plus the shuffling is gone man I hated that which is a bonus! 

 

Plus combat is not about chugging down potions considering the ease of healing and how incredibly easy it is to make potions which trivializes everything. So yeah overall a part from the speed of the melee animations and how some of the skills are preformed I prefer it over DAO. 

 

But mages I got no complaints about them in DAO they looked silly glad they are sticking with the same staff attack and the spell animations look great in inquisition. 

skills being useful is subjective. Honestly because of the stream line and weapon restrictions, there was less skills that were useful for rogues and warriors. The trees themselves? The freedom in builds seemed like it would give more freedom than DAO, but it wasn't. Because of the way the trees were, some of them  you needed 3 sustainables (only one of which could be active at once) just to get one  useful passive or upgrade,   The trees may be done better now in DAI than in DA2 but there is less freedom because of weapon restrictions. 

 

DAO had 8-9 companions, DA2 had 7-8 at most, DAI 9.  Really I dont think that is that much more, and that doesnt make it better when you only bring 4 anyways.

 

I'll give you the shuffling aspect, however the ninja flipping (which still remains)  the teleporting (which still remains) and the ridiculous staff twirling.. all remain. They look just as bad if not more so than the shuffling due to how immersion breaking it is.  Not to mention that it speaks lazy when they just copied and pasted for DAI.   The potion chugging thing is something separated from the core combat.  That is cause they had potions of multiple levels in DAO, you didnt have utilize them at all if you didnt want to.  DA2 had extremely long cooldowns, and because of the fast paced combat, healing was moot in long battles and because only Anders could heal for the majority of the game if you were not a mage yourself, once again, limiting freedom. 

[Bigdoser]

Eh honestly most of the skills within DAO sucked while you could make a suitable build out of majority of the skill trees within DA2. My whole thing is no point giving an option if it down right sucks I just think DA2 has more meaningful skill options so I can make more crazy builds. Which I feel creates more freedom and more ways I can play my character. I do agree Looking at the combat mechanics of DAI it has been improved further.

 

Thing is fights are not long in DA2 actually they go by incredibly fast. DPS anders + DPS merril + Varric and Hawke? Everything dies in seconds no healing required. Plus having anders dance between dps modes and healing mode is quite fun to do and setting up the tactics to do it and managing his whole cooldown aspect of his skills. 

 

You can do it with most of the party members depending on how you set up your builds and cross class combos. Eh I even know people who use rogues to pull of 25k damage combos reducing enemies into paste. Or even going disorientation build with varric and isabela and blowing stuff up with sword and shield hawke along with aveline. 

 

Or doing brittle combos along with mage hawke and varric ah good times. 

 

Now DA2 had its issues the sheer amount of sustainable skills I agree with they were kinda silly but they were useful. Warrior could work with it via battlemaster builds but eh. I just feel overall its an improvement over origins not perfect but an improvement.

 

In DAO I just keep seeing myself picking the same things again and again and picking skills that just sit there on my bar doing well nothing since they are not worth using. Plus healing was dumb and overpowered in that game most fun I had was running CC and damage. Then I realized the ease of potion making and that sucked the fun out of it since you won't be able to survive because of the sheer amount of damage you will be taking.

 

Eh I know everyone does not feel the same but that's just my opinion in DA2 combat. 

[Star fury]

If you´ve been following the feedback that players have been given throughout the years, you would come to the same conclusion. You´re perfectly entitled to your opinion, but yes, the general consensus seems to be that combat was improved in DA2 over DA:O. Plus the devs have insinuated the same on several occasions.

Bullshit. It's funny how your opinion became a "general consensus". Do you have a link with devs' quotes?

[Star fury]

Yet another thing that brings DAI closer to DA2.

What makes me laugh is metacriti scores for DAO and DA2.

DAO metascore: 91 User score: 8.6
DA2 metascore: 82 User score: 4.3

One could say that user score more acuratly represents people who actually buy the game, not review it for money. DA2 was obviously a step in the wrong direction. The direction of JRPGs. DA2 even had its own Dante and called it Fenris. We already know from every footage that oversized swords are deffinietly back, so even if there is no Dante, the idea of it remains.

Rogues and warriors looking like mages? Whats the point of mages then? It looks like both rogues and warrior can easily perform magical feats, they even outperform mages at some, although less flashy. Warriors just build up guard and it just seems to stay there, barrier just runs out and guard stays on, 1:0 for warriors. Rogues become invisble and teleport while mages can do neither, 2:0 for rogues.

I have no idea if DAI story will be good, however I am expecting the old tired BioWare formula to return, which is a bit of a bummer. They at least tried to do something different in that department in DA2.

Excluding the storty so far the only things that DAI seems to be doing better than DA2 are: graphics,crafting, enviroment (THE CAVE is on vacation - will probably return for DA4) and possibly lower amount of companions written to be annoying just to be annoying, eveyrthing else is either simplified, dumbed down or removed. With this rate in DA4 we will just choose a skill tree and the game will automaticly buy spells for us at level up with 4 active abiilities limit and in DA5 we will just choose a role in character creator and get 4 active abilities for all game. Swinging a sword will create a rainbow and rogues will cause explosions with every backstab.

One could say that brining up the abilties limit is pointless in this discusion, however I think that with constant simplification, dumbing down and making the game look like a freaking kamehameha show people who buy Dragon Age are treated like halfwits. It is all a part of a bigger picture.

Metacritic user score is often closer to the truth than game bloggers' score. It's because game bloggers have an incestous relationship with developers or just get gifts from them and thus give high scores.

[seraphymon]

Eh honestly most of the skills within DAO sucked while you could make a suitable build out of majority of the skill trees within DA2. My whole thing is no point giving an option if it down right sucks I just think DA2 has more meaningful skill options so I can make more crazy builds. Which I feel creates more freedom. I do agree Looking at the combat mechanics of DAI it has been improved further.

 

Thing is fights are not long in DA2 actually they go by incredibly fast. DPS anders + DPS merril + Varric and Hawke? Everything dies in seconds no healing required. Plus having anders dance between dps modes and healing mode is quite fun to do and setting up the tactics to do it and managing his whole cooldown aspect of his skills. 

 

You can do it with most of the party members depending on how you set up your builds and cross class combos. Eh I even know people who use rogues to pull of 25k damage combos reducing enemies into paste. Or even going disorientation build with varric and isabela and blowing stuff up with sword and shield hawke along with aveline. 

 

Or doing brittle combos along with mage hawke and varric ah good times. 

 

Now DA2 had its issues the sheer amount of sustainable skills I agree with they were kinda silly but they were useful. Warrior could work with it via battlemaster builds but eh. I just feel overall its an improvement over origins not perfect but an improvement.

 

In DAO I just keep seeing myself picking the same things again and again and picking skills that just sit there on my bar doing well nothing since they are not worth using. Plus healing was dumb and overpowered in that game most fun I had was running CC and damage. Then I realized the ease of potion making and that sucked the fun out of it since you won't be able to survive because of the sheer amount of damage you will be taking.

Most of the skills in DA2 sucked just as much, some were viable sure. But I had a ton more builds in DAO.

 

you talk about CCC but in order to do so that means you need to pick up certain abilities and certain upgrades and needing proper classes as companions in order to pull them off, forcing you down certain paths. Honestly CCC was a good idea but the execution sucked IMO.  It was better in DAO where if you freeze someone and you used a big ability, you instantly killed them.. It felt real. DA2 was just more damage, which was later countered by only being able to do a certain % dmg to enemies as a cap.  

 

Each fight on its own may not have lasted long. But because of waves, combat did last longer than it needed. So unless you were a mage, you were auto-attacking most of the time, or needing to switch to other companions in order to do something..

[Bigdoser]

Most of the skills in DA2 sucked just as much, some were viable sure. But I had a ton more builds in DAO.

 

you talk about CCC but in order to do so that means you need to pick up certain abilities and certain upgrades and needing proper classes as companions in order to pull them off, forcing you down certain paths. Honestly CCC was a good idea but the execution sucked IMO.  It was better in DAO where if you freeze someone and you used a big ability, you instantly killed them.. It felt real. DA2 was just more damage, which was later countered by only being able to do a certain % dmg to enemies as a cap.  

 

Each fight on its own may not have lasted long. But because of waves, combat did last longer than it needed. So unless you were a mage, you were auto-attacking most of the time, or needing to switch to other companions in order to do something..

Well its just that I feel I have more paths available to me in DA2 than DAO and I had more enjoyment on those said paths than DAO. Actually DAO does not really have that many spell combinations honestly. Plus each stagger effect in DA2 carries its own debuff so you could tailor your stat points towards that as well. Heck I did not even really use CC builds in DA2 you know I should try that! Yeah that is going to be my next play through gotta decide on a class. In DAO it was the mages who had the most options in terms of builds than anyone else. 

 

While the Rogue and Warrior lost out and did not really start to get corrected in awakening. Two handed was pretty much trash until late game DAO and awakening and Rogue? Warrior can do their roles better unless you decide to go backstab build just took them around for traps and locking. 

 

http://dragonage.wik...ll_combinations

 

http://dragonage.wik...oss-class_combo

 

The disorientation build was fun stuff went like this on nightmare. 

 

Pride demon: *ROAR*

 

Isabela and varric: Confuse!

 

Hawke and Aveline: Assault!

 

Pride demon: *Dead* In fade: what? I lasted only a few seconds D:

 

Just how I view the combat systems personally. Just how I feel about it. 

 

PS I HATE WAVES GAAAAAAAH! 

[Star fury]

Anyone who claims that da2 combat is "better" needs to have his head checked. Repetitive waves and waves of enemies, mobs spawning everywhere, teleporting behind the party from already cleared places and thus eliminating all tactical aspects of combat, weird combination of trash mobs and "elite" hit point sink enemies, da2 combat was poorly planned and poorly implemented. It was poor in general.

[Bigdoser]

Oh I totally agree with you on that front when it comes to waves its what I personally feel killed it but I am talking about the mechanics of said system the skills and class combos which are carrying over into inquisition. I just had more freedom in what I can use since everything was viable and I like that in my rpg games. 

 

Agree to disagree I guess. Hey who knows I might need to get my head checked for enjoying it according to star fury. 

[Xilizhra]

Anyone who claims that da2 combat is "better" needs to have his head checked. Repetitive waves and waves of enemies, mobs spawning everywhere, teleporting behind the party from already cleared places and thus eliminating all tactical aspects of combat, weird combination of trash mobs and "elite" hit point sink enemies, da2 combat was poorly planned and poorly implemented. It was poor in general.

"Better" may be one thing, but for me, it was certainly "more fun." The waves were problematic, but it at least looked and felt more interesting and responsive (and I don't know why you have a problem with mixtures of normal and elite enemies).

 

However, I do think DAI has taken it too far and made everything far too explosively colorful (while also slowing the animations down, something that I dislike because I loved DA2's speed).

[Hellion Rex]

However, I do think DAI has taken it too far and made everything far too explosively colorful

No, maximum pretty!

*slams fist on the table*

[straightdave2000]

I love the flashy colors and over the topness. Da:O was dreadfully boring in its combat. Good to see more active elements in combat and more eye candy