You know, this is precisely what I was hoping for. It's pretty cool that we get to switch between two, relatively different, combat systems at any point in time. Why anyone would complain about this is a bit beyond me. It would seem to me that tactical combat is going to be more advantageous at higher difficulties.
Really? Do you know beyond a doubt that the tac cam mode has no other limitations on your character? No other mechanic restrictions or ability constraints that would prevent you from doing anything you normally could in standard camera?
I know you don't, because nobody does yet. So why would you be 'fine' with an imposed limitation without any functional basis in design, that does not provide any benefit whatsoever, but in fact removes options without an overlapping feature such as a toggle?
That's like being a millionaire and walking up to a homeless person and telling him how thrilled you are they they are passing a law making soup kitchens suburb based only.
Really? Do you know beyond a doubt that the tac cam mode has no other limitations on your character? No other mechanic restrictions or ability constraints that would prevent you from doing anything you normally could in standard camera?
I know you don't, because nobody does yet. So why would you be 'fine' with an imposed limitation without any functional basis in design, that does not provide any benefit whatsoever, but in fact removes options without an overlapping feature such as a toggle?
That's like being a millionaire and walking up to a homeless person and telling him how thrilled you are they they are passing a law making soup kitchens suburb based only.
some people are doing mental gymnastics to convince themselves that removing options is all fine and dandy.
Really? Do you know beyond a doubt that the tac cam mode has no other limitations on your character? No other mechanic restrictions or ability constraints that would prevent you from doing anything you normally could in standard camera?
I know you don't, because nobody does yet. So why would you be 'fine' with an imposed limitation without any functional basis in design, that does not provide any benefit whatsoever, but in fact removes options without an overlapping feature such as a toggle?
That's like being a millionaire and walking up to a homeless person and telling him how thrilled you are they they are passing a law making soup kitchens suburb based only.
See, I suppose I don't understand what imagined deficit (and it must be imagined, as you said that no one knows what limitations tactical cam applies to characters) you believe the dev's information represents. From what I saw of the PC gameplay video, tac cam acts just as I would have hoped it would. Yes, you are limited to eight spells, but that's not a function of the tactical combat mode. The commands look similar -- if not, in many cases, identical -- to those of DAO; and the camera itself is rather improved (panning is far better, for instance). You can move by left-clicking the ground.
However, I could certainly be missing something. What lack of functionality are you complaining about, in particular?
It's the philosophy behind it. Even if there are no negative benefits from switching to tac cam, what is the purpose of taking something as simple as auto-attack away from standard? What is the game-specific justification? And if there is none, what if a player simply wants to stay in standard mode when he fights? Again, without justification, it just comes across as bad design.
Also, I didn't notice in the pc stream what you are saying regarding the panning. Do ytou have a specif time in the video where it shows this? Here are the links:
Think about it. If you pause the game, and you are Not in tac cam, then you cannot issue movement orders. You cannot tell your characters to move away from an incoming fireball.
That makes NO sense.
Just like KotOR, you can't issue move orders while paused.
You know, this is precisely what I was hoping for. It's pretty cool that we get to switch between two, relatively different, combat systems at any point in time. Why anyone would complain about this is a bit beyond me. It would seem to me that tactical combat is going to be more advantageous at higher difficulties.
It is pretty strange that they tied the combat systems to the camera mode.
This is entirely subjective, but I'd say that the camera looks to act more fluidly than the DAO camera around 1:40 in Part 3.
As for getting rid of a true auto-attack in the third person view, I can see why it might irk some people, but it's a clear decision to take combat in a new direction, at least in part. This isn't just to make the game "console-friendly" (though it does make it better suited for a console than DAO may have been). Auto-attacking requires little player input, and this is fine for MMOs and their ilk, when a player has dozens and dozens of skills to juggle and queue up, all the while trying to keep track of his or her teammates, amidst jabber on mumble or teamspeak or whatever people use nowadays. In single player games, such combat has become dated, and I (and I am not alone in this) find it rather stale and boring. If I'm playing over the shoulder of my character, I don't want to just select a target, click a button, and run around willy-nilly. I want action. Involve me. Let me attain some sort of cathartic release by smashing buttons. Let me aim (I love mouselook). Let me feel a little bit more connected.
I loved the Baldur's Gate series. I loved Icewind Dale. Neverwinter Nights was great, too. I've played them all and enjoyed them all. The combat in those games was superb. Those fights were about tactics and strategy, and I still think that we'll get the same sort of satisfaction from Inquisition as we once drew from Bioware's (and Black Isle's) other franchises. DAO was all tactical combat, and the camera facilitated such a system. DAI is different. The combat is not the same; hence, the controls aren't all the same, but you can still go back to tactical (with a cursor) if that's what you prefer.
It is pretty strange that they tied the combat systems to the camera mode.
I disagree. One uses a cursor; the other uses mouselook. How else could they have made the two separate combat systems? Or would you rather there be no option to play Inquisition as an ARPG? If that's the case, I can appreciate your point.
Edit: Okay, no aiming
Honestly, maybe I just dig the new combat... It's not Origins, and I don't think it makes claims to be Origins.
Check out this video of you haven't already (seems controller is in use) POSSIBLE SPOILERS:
Edit, edit: I am bad at spelling "Baldur," apparently
Brogan:
This is entirely subjective, but I'd say that the camera looks to act more fluidly than the DAO camera around 1:40 in Part 3.
As for getting rid of a true auto-attack in the third person view, I can see why it might irk some people, but it's a clear decision to take combat in a new direction, at least in part. This isn't just to make the game "console-friendly" (though it does make it better suited for a console than DAO may have been). Auto-attacking requires little player input, and this is fine for MMOs and their ilk, when a player has dozens and dozens of skills to juggle and queue up, all the while trying to keep track of his or her teammates, amidst jabber on mumble or teamspeak or whatever people use nowadays. In single player games, such combat has become dated, and I (and I am not alone in this) find it rather stale and boring. If I'm playing over the shoulder of my character, I don't want to just select a target, click a button, and run around willy-nilly. I want action. Involve me. Let me attain some sort of cathartic release by smashing buttons. Let me aim (I love mouselook). Let me feel a little bit more connected.
I loved the Balder's Gate series. I loved Icewind Dale. Neverwinter Nights was great, too. I've played them all and enjoyed them all. The combat in those games was superb. Those fights were about tactics and strategy, and I still think that we'll get the same sort of satisfaction from Inquisition as we once drew from Bioware's (and Black Isle's) other franchises. DAO was all tactical combat, and the camera facilitated such a system. DAI is different. The combat is not the same; hence, the controls aren't all the same, but you can still go back to tactical (with a cursor) if that's what you prefer
I think that's a great point, and I also have a significant amount of faith in Bioware, even though the fears of losing some things to the cross platform design still seem to linger. I am confident they are not going to leave staple features and controls in DAI un-attended.
But I gotta say, I really took a lot from this. Great post, man.
I disagree. One uses a cursor; the other uses mouselook. How else could they have made the two separate combat systems? Or would you rather there be no option to play Inquisition as an ARPG? If that's the case, I can appreciate your point.
I'm not asking for anything to be removed. I'd just like to see a point-and-click interface always available.
No one is saying you can't have action combat.
It all comes does to what options ate actually available with the Tactical Camera. If the Tac Cam can do all of the things that the over-the-shoulder camera can do, and the only difference between thw two is the combat interface, then I have no objection (beyond the mode being named after a non-differentiating feature).
But if we can't do with the Tactical Camera all the things we can do with the OTS camera, then we're losing features.
Some players, I imagine, enjoy both point-and-click auto-attack and WASD driving controls. And while you could use those two together in both DAO and DA2, it seems you can't in Inquisition. That's the issue. Styles of gameplay that were supported and even popular in past games are being actively suppressed.
I may well be able to play Inquisition exactly as I choose, but this change means that some peopke won't. And I object to that because I don't see whose benefitting from it. You like the action combat, and that's fine, but DA2 provided the action combat without segregating it from point-and-click.
Tying features together like this is anti-consumer. It tells us that if we like A we have to endure X. And if we want Y instead of X, well then we have to accept B instead of A. Bundles take away our choices.
And that makes me wonder about another possible tac cam limitation: if zooming all the way out via mousewheel forces tac cam, does that mean that while in 'exploration mode' (std cam), I cannot zoom all the way out to pan around and look at my surroundings?
Is there a key bind that will forcibly exit tac cam? If not, does that mean during combat, we will not be able to zoom in on our characters or enemies to get those great screenshots? Cuz that would really suk.
And that makes me wonder about another possible tac cam limitation: if zooming all the way out via mousewheel forces tac cam, does that mean that while in 'exploration mode' (std cam), I cannot zoom all the way out to pan around and look at my surroundings?
Is there a key bind that will forcibly exit tac cam? If not, does that mean during combat, we will not be able to zoom in on our characters or enemies to get those great screenshots? Cuz that would really suk.
Have you actually watched the pc ui stream? The benefit of tac cam is that you can pan around and look at your surroundings, zoom in on your characters, zoom in on enemies, move the camera to get screen shots, move the camera forwards to spot hidden enemies.
If you can lock your camera in some position while in tactical camera, I think that the implementation is alright. The problem's probably because AA's might have an attack chain with different motions per weapon, and there's the problem of getting animation locked when you're using a skill. It's also in prep for the multiplayer mode, I guess.
Skill toggles could be nice to put in, though - but it's another thing that might be put on after a while.
Edit 1: I think I see their point on why two seperate modes had to be put in. Unless there's a jump-context command and an weapon-attack-in-place command to tactical camera, in which case the action mode's just a way to standardize MP - but that's a tangential thought at most. The problem with not adding action mode stems in the fact that there's a three-dimensional motion aspect to the game, with jump and destructible assets enabled. I think that's the key thing to think of, unless, of course, destructible assets and far and beyond in between, in which case the change really isn't appropriate.
That, perhaps, stems the core of the problem that the solution is a different mode for each - because trying to fit all commands into a single mode is unlikely with a limited control scheme when you have a controller attached- hence the mode addition. It would probably be nice to have something to enable visibility in the UI for when tac-cam or action mode is enabled.
It's things to think about, now that they've also added skill-activation in place, without necessarily having a target. That's probably one of the reasons why there's such a difference between action and tac-cam.
TL;DR: Destructible stuff and skill activation in place (whether it be sustained-style skills, toggle-style skills, single-activation skills, or standard weapon attack chains) as well as jumping, and the problem of adding three-dimensional pathfinding without contextual action detectionon top of it(kinda like the ones you find in 3D platformers such as Assassin's Creed) gives us a reason why there's the divide between tac-cam and action-cam. Additions such as camera locking for tac-cam, mode switch confirmation in the UI, etc, could be needed for clarification.
Well, I was gonna stay out of this thread, because maaaaan some of you are ANGRY. But, then I figured, eh who cares.
I can understand the more engaged part, what I don't understand when people bring this up is why they are playing a party based game.
As I see it the more engaged you are in controlling a character, the less you control the rest, so their presence become meaningless.
That is why, as long as Dragon Age is party based, tactical cam, pause and auto-attack are needed.
Not the way I play it. I pretty much only control my main character in real time in these kind of games. My other characters only get controlled via the tac cam when the game is paused. I role play it as my main character calling out orders in the thick of battle, He/She should be skilled enough to asses the situation and give orders quickly, but I am not, so the pause works perfectly. After orders are given I switch back to my character and continue controlling him directly, in real time pausing the game every now and then to issue more orders, but I rarely if ever control anyone other then my main directly outside of tac cam.
The presence of my party members is never meaningless. Especially considering even if I am not ordering them around they have something called ai which will cause them to attack enemies and stuff like that.
What purpose would jumping have in combat without an already established skill?
I'm not talking about combat. We're supposedly able to use the Tac Cam for exploration, as well, but with the driving commands disabled I don't know how jumping would work.
DAO let us point-and-click or drive with WASD regardless of camera mode. That Inquisition doesn't suggests that BioWare thinks there's some benefit to the segregation.
If you can lock your camera in some position while in tactical camera, I think that the implementation is alright. The problem's probably because AA's might have an attack chain with different motions per weapon, and there's the problem of getting animation locked when you're using a skill. It's also in prep for the multiplayer mode, I guess.
Skill toggles could be nice to put in, though - but it's another thing that might be put on after a while.
Edit 1: I think I see their point on why two seperate modes had to be put in. Unless there's a jump-context command and an weapon-attack-in-place command to tactical camera, in which case the action mode's just a way to standardize MP - but that's a tangential thought at most. The problem with not adding action mode stems in the fact that there's a three-dimensional motion aspect to the game, with jump and destructible assets enabled. I think that's the key thing to think of, unless, of course, destructible assets and far and beyond in between, in which case the change really isn't appropriate.
That, perhaps, stems the core of the problem that the solution is a different mode for each - because trying to fit all commands into a single mode is unlikely with a limited control scheme when you have a controller attached- hence the mode addition. It would probably be nice to have something to enable visibility in the UI for when tac-cam or action mode is enabled.
It's things to think about, now that they've also added skill-activation in place, without necessarily having a target. That's probably one of the reasons why there's such a difference between action and tac-cam.
TL;DR: Destructible stuff and skill activation in place (whether it be sustained-style skills, toggle-style skills, single-activation skills, or standard weapon attack chains) as well as jumping, and the problem of adding three-dimensional pathfinding without contextual action detectionon top of it(kinda like the ones you find in 3D platformers such as Assassin's Creed) gives us a reason why there's the divide between tac-cam and action-cam. Additions such as camera locking for tac-cam, mode switch confirmation in the UI, etc, could be needed for clarification.
I understand what you are saying, and it begs the question, why did they choose Frostbite? It's an FPS geared engine. And even though Laidlaw demonstrated it in the pc stream, I still don't see a reason why we need jumping. Attacking the air makes no sense, and even destructible environment doesn't really fit in the style of point and click gameplay.
These things are clearly there because of console programming. Whether there is a reason they have to be in, or they are in because the programmers didn't think they will hurt anything on the PC side is the real question.
DAO let us point-and-click or drive with WASD regardless of camera mode. That Inquisition doesn't suggests that BioWare thinks there's some benefit to the segregation.
There isn't.
At least as far as I can tell from watching the pc stream.
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