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[SporkFu]

Hardwired into the crucible. It was made to destroy the Reapers, you know?

 

 

 

Really now, Spork?

 

'I have tried... similar solutions in the past. It cannot be forced'

 

And again, as said to MrFob: the Crucible was built to destroy the Reapers. Why would it have thought: 'oh boy, they might be on to something?!' For all it cares, these puny organics would undo all it's work in a matter of seconds if they succeeded. Only when the Crucible docked it became aware of the other options (probably it became aware of Control by TIM though, but again this isn't really a solution) and that, was probably the reason it decided to wake up Shepard at all.

Similar is not the same as ...well, the same. If it was, the catalyst could just as easily have said, "Ah yes, synthesis. We have dismissed that claim."  That quote means nothing because the catalyst doesn't expand on its past attempt in any way. It doesn't say how it tried to make synthesis work, or why it failed. All we know is that the crucible has never been part of the attempt. 

[Farangbaa]

Similar is not the same as ...well, the same. If it was, the catalyst could just as easily have said, "Ah yes, synthesis. We have dismissed that claim."  That quote means nothing because the catalyst doesn't expand on its past attempt in any way. It doesn't say how it tried to make synthesis work, or why it failed. All we know is that the crucible has never been part of the attempt. 

 

'The Crucible has changed me'

 

It could never have known it would've. (and this is why I like to think the Crucible overrode at least some of it's coding to make it truthful)

[SporkFu]

'The Crucible has changed me'

 

It could never have known it would've. (and this is why I like to think the Crucible overrode at least some of it's coding to make it truthful)

It knew the crucible existed. it never took what the crucible might possibly do into consideration, never made it part of the calculations. Otherwise it might have allowed organics to finish it. That's why I think the catalyst is flawed, it never understood that organics have to be part of the solution, not just something to be preserved. 

[MrFob]

Hardwired into the crucible. It was made to destroy the Reapers, you know?

According to the catalyst, the crucible is just a power source.

Also, the catalyst can shut the crucible down, as seen in the refuse ending.

 

And even if the crucible would have changed the catalyst, it still argues according it's original programming. As you said before, from it's point of view (which we only know from the final conversation), synthesis is the only viable option. This is already the changed catalyst. We never see it before the change.

So, it had the motive and the ability to refuse Shepard the choice (or rather to make it "take synthesis or the cycle continues). Why didn't it?

[Farangbaa]

It knew the crucible existed. it never took what the crucible might possibly do into consideration, never made it part of the calculations. Otherwise it might have allowed organics to finish it. That's why I think the catalyst is flawed, it never understood that organics have to be part of the solution, not just something to be preserved. 

 

Yeah because Crucible, again, is a weapon to destroy the Reapers. Why would it take that into consideration in his calculations? The only outcome there is that it's problem will not be solved and what he's trying to prevent will happen.

The only logical thing it can do is trying as hard as possible to prevent it from being completed.

 

You're kinda acting cpt Hindsight here, as if the Catalyst should've known that somehow that super weapon meant to destroy the Reapers would help it achieve synthetis. There's no possible way it could've predicted that. (Don't ask me who added the synthesis function to the Crucible, nor how, nor why )

[SporkFu]

Yeah because Crucible, again, is a weapon to destroy the Reapers. Why would it take that into consideration in his calculations? The only outcome there is that it's problem will not be solved and what he's trying to prevent will happen.

The only logical thing it can do is trying as hard as possible to prevent it from being completed.

 

You're kinda acting cpt Hindsight here, as if the Catalyst should've known that somehow that super weapon meant to destroy the Reapers would help it achieve synthetis. There's no possible way it could've predicted that. (Don't ask me who added the synthesis function to the Crucible, nor how, nor why )

This whole topic is hindsight. What does that matter?

The catalyst doesn't take the crucible into consideration because it doesn't believe organics have anything to offer to to the solution. organics only exist to be preserved because Leviathan mandated that life be preserved. That has nothing to do with the crucible itself; it's just a tool. If the catalyst is looking for a solution to the whole mess, and we kinda have to believe it is, why wouldn't it take anything new that comes its way into consideration?

 

*shrug* I dunno, maybe it's because the crucible design was never as refined as it is now. The prothean VI, either on Thessia or Cronos Station -- take your pick I can't remember where he says it -- said that each cycle added to its design. All our cycle could learn about it, before we built it, was that it is "capable of releasing tremendous amounts of energy."

 

Everybody say Oooh. Aaaah. 

 

What now? Nobody knows... but the catalyst has to be able to predict possible outcomes. It has to be able to say, "if this happens, any of these could happen." Isn't that the nature of looking for a solution to a problem? 

[Farangbaa]

Organics are the reason the problem exists at all. Organics make AI which they subsequently do not allow to surpass them, trying to enslave them but, as far as we know, failing to do so in every instance with consequences we are all aware of (99% of the Quarians dead, for instance)

If it had free reign and wasn't shackled to it's mandate, I doubt organics would even still be around to cause the problem.

That is why it does not consider organics part of the solution until one of them makes it into it's home.

(and don't forget this cycle was the first to finish the Crucible)

[Vazgen]

According to the catalyst, the crucible is just a power source.

Also, the catalyst can shut the crucible down, as seen in the refuse ending.

 

And even if the crucible would have changed the catalyst, it still argues according it's original programming. As you said before, from it's point of view (which we only know from the final conversation), synthesis is the only viable option. This is already the changed catalyst. We never see it before the change.

So, it had the motive and the ability to refuse Shepard the choice (or rather to make it "take synthesis or the cycle continues). Why didn't it?

If you have low EMS you don't have synthesis option. Why does the Catalyst bring the elevator up?

How about this theory - Catalyst realizes that its solution is flawed. Perhaps even realizes that the Reapers themselves are a part of the problem, just like Leviathans were.

But it can't destroy itself or change its programming so drastically, because of safeguards it has (similar to self-preservation instincts, perhaps even installed by its creators). So it brings Shepard up and gives him a choice

Destroy - destroys the Reapers, Catalyst, mass relays - brings the galaxy to the "no Reapers" state. Mass Relays might be possible to rebuild but the races of the cycle will understand the technology this time. This, however, removes the ability to make sure whether the solution was really found and thus the Catalyst advises against it (also out of that same self-preservation instinct)

Control - changes Catalyst programming to search for a new solution. "this solution won't work anymore" => Catalyst needs to change its programming. But the change is too drastic to make from within. Thus, the need for Shepard.

Synthesis - a new solution that just became possible and doesn't require rewriting Catalyst's code or destroying it. Clearly it favors this solution. Synthesis will likely not affect the Catalyst, since it only affects hardware, not software. 

[SwobyJ]

If you have Low EMS the Catalyst sounds forced to speak with you.

 

If you have High EMS the Catalyst seems to welcome you.

 

If you have Synthesis available, the Catalyst seems relatively eager to show you something.

 

 

I think in only High+ EMS, the Catalyst really seems to consider being wrong. Below that, it is "you brought it on yourselves".

 

Ah the Crucible, the magic machine that Shepard shoots, grabs onto electric things, or leaps into to activate. What a marvel. So legit.

[SporkFu]

If you have Low EMS the Catalyst sounds forced to speak with you.

 

If you have High EMS the Catalyst seems to welcome you.

 

If you have Synthesis available, the Catalyst seems relatively eager to show you something.

 

 

I think in only High+ EMS, the Catalyst really seems to consider being wrong. Below that, it is "you brought it on yourselves".

 

Ah the Crucible, the magic machine that Shepard shoots, grabs onto electric things, or leaps into to activate. What a marvel. So legit.

I have never played a game through to the end where synthesis wasn't an available option. Hmm...  

[Obadiah]

TLDR: In defeating the Catalyst, the Organics of this cycle demonstrate the ability wield immense power and defeat Synthetics, even when overwhelmed in an Organic/Synthetic conflict. Not a theory about the Catalyst knowing about the Crucible and using it to judge Organics.

Longer version: Been thinking about those Destroy-only and Control-only scenarios that can happen at the climax with lower EMS scores, and why the Catalyst still explains them to Shepard. To the Catalyst, maybe the solution it sees to the problem is not so much about the specific option we select in the Decision Chamber (though it does have a preference), but the ability or willingness to wield that immense power when necessary.

One of the Catalyst's early statements is about limits we place on how much we improve ourselves, and much of the criticism about the use the Crucible, aside from the unwelcome side effects, is that it is too much power for anyone to have or use - especially in Control. Here we see some of the truth in the Catalyst's statement: self-imposed limitations.

But what happens when others, like the Catalyst or The Illusive Man, are willing to amass and use such power whether we like it or not, beyond those limits?

I've said before that the Geth are an example of the beginning of the rise of the AI, and Reapers and example of how extremely powerful they can become. This progression shows how unbridled the Synthetic use of power can be. The sheer scope of a galactic solution to an interspecies destructive pattern of behavior would seem unfeasible to most of us, but to the Catalyst it is just a problem it was assigned to solve. When speaking to Legion in ME2 during its loyalty mission I was not only intrigued by its unique point of view, but also its complete lack of limitation on behavior. Legion had a goal, and it evaluated the potential effects of different actions - the end. No sense of good or bad, right or wrong, permissible or non-permissible action.

How can Organics compete with that in a conflict?

Technology is advancing at a rapid (exponential?) pace, and things we may not dream of as possible now, someday may come to pass. In the Catalyst, we encounter a being that has attempted to solve a problem that many of us would rather simply ignore or deny, with power and knowledge we could barely imagine. What happens when, as our technology and abilities advance, we are able to recognize problems of a similar magnitude and scope? Will we act?

In firing the Crucible, in overcoming the Catalyst, for better or worse we demonstrate that as a species, as a form of life, we are no longer bound absolutely, in some cases self-destructively, by the limitations we have placed on ourselves.

This would explain why the Catalyst continues to attack the Crucible even while offering solutions (it wants to break our limitations, even if it is forcing us to do so), and why the Refuse ending turns into such a total loss scenario.

[SporkFu]

TLDR: In defeating the Catalyst, the Organics of this cycle demostrate the ability weild immense power and defeat Synthetics even when overwhelmed in an Organic/Synthetic conflict. Not a theory about the Catalyst knowing about the Crucible and using it to judge Organics.

Longer version: Been thinking about that Destroy-only or Control-only scenarios that can happen at the climax with lower EMS scores, and why the Catalyst still explains them to Shepard. To the Catalyst, maybe the solution it sees to the problem is not so much about the specific option we select in the Decision Chamber (though it does have a preference), but the ability or willingness to wield that immense power when necessary.

One of the Catalyst's early statements is about limits we place on how much we improve ourselves, and much of the criticism about the use the Crucible, aside from the unwelcome side effects, is that it is too much power for anyone to have or use - especially in Control. Here we see the some of the truth in the Catalyst's statement: self-imposed limitations.

But what happens when others, like the Catalyst or The Illusive Man, are willing to amass and use such power whether we like it or not?

I've said before that the Geth are an example of the beginning of the rise of the AI, and Reapers and example of how extremely powerful they can become. This progression shows how unbridled the Synthetic use of power can be. The sheer scope of a galactic solution to an interspecies destructive pattern of behevior would seem unfeasible to most of us, but to the Catalyst it is just a problem it was assigned to solve. When speaking to Legion in ME2 during its loyalty mission I was not only intrigued by its unique point of view, but also its complete lack of limitation on behavior. Legion had a goal, and it evaluated the potential effects of different actions - the end. No sense of good or bad, right or wrong, permissible or non-permissible action.

How can Organics compete with that in a conflict?

Technology is advancing at a rapid (exponential?) pace, and things we may not dream of as possible now, someday may come to pass. In the Catalyst, we encounter a being that has attempted to solve a problem that many of us would rather simply ignore or deny, with power and knowledge we could barely imagine. What happens when, as our technology and abilities advance, we are able to recognize problems of a similar magnitude and scope? Will we act?

In firing the Crucible, in overcoming the Catalyst, for better or worse we demonstrate that as a species, as a form of life, we are no longer bound absolutely, in some cases self-destructively, by the limitations we have placed on ourselves.

This would explain why the Catalyst continues to attack the Crucible even while offering solutions (it wants to break our limitations, even if it is forcing us to do so), and why the Refuse ending turns into such a total loss scenario.
 

I'm reminded of shep and TIM's conversation just prior to the end, when shep says (something like) "you're wielding power you shouldn't be able to use!" ... implying that TIM wasn't ready to have that power.

 

When we -- fictional we, as in our cycle, in-game -- built the crucible we didn't know what it would do. I kinda got the impression that everyone was just kinda hoping it was a giant gun that would blast the reapers back into hell and they didn't care about the rest. If we had gone in to the crucible construction, knowing beforehand that we could control the reapers with it, or destroy them, or we knew that everything in the galaxy would change afterwards ... then I would say we, as a species, are no longer bound by limitations. 

 

Not saying we should never take any risks, but... just dunno that I would say we were ready, as a species, to use the crucible because we built it out of desperation to stop the reapers from killing us all. 

[Farangbaa]

Not saying we should never take any risks, but... just dunno that I would say we were ready, as a species, to use the crucible because we built it out of desperation to stop the reapers from killing us all. 

 

Ah, but this is where the Catalyst is really impressed (if it can feel such emotions) with organics. It has seen the Crucible being built by many cycles, every cycle adding to it and improving it and every time again the species building it was harvested and the crucible, for as far as it was built, destroyed. But even though all the species of all the cycles were no more, the Crucible remained in existence and was (tried to have) built again and again and again.

 

That is the grandest achievement of organics. They were able to pass on an idea over countless milennia, between species who didn't speak the same language or even knew each other, completely defeating the fact that they all died in doing so. Every cycle's dying species since the Crucible concept first showed up managed to give the next cycle's species a better chance, until finally the current cycle's species not only finished building it (the first, I believe), but also managed to dock it.

 

(If your Shepard happens to be a *bleeping bleep* and picks refuse, there's still Liara who gives the next cycle's species a better chance)

 

This is why I love the Crucible and don't understand why some people hate it so much. It's not just the means by which the current cycle's species acquire to right to stay alive in their current form, but it also vindicates all previous cycles' species before it, as without them, none of this cycle's species would've survived or even stand a chance.

[voteDC]

This is why I love the Crucible and don't understand why some people hate it so bad. It's not just the means by which the current cycle's species acquire to right to stay alive in their current form, but it also vindicates all previous cycles' species before it, as without them, none of this cycle's species would've survived or even stand a chance.

I hate it because how did anyone expect to use it?

The design, at least in our cycle, relies on a trigger that no-one knows even exists. Why waste so many resources on a device you don't know how to fire.

Right up until the end I was convinced the Crucible was a red herring planted by the Reapers. Something to make the organics waste resources on it instead of working on better weapons and defences, or ways to hide.

[Farangbaa]

The design, at least in our cycle, relies on a trigger that no-one knows even exists. Why waste so many resources on a device you don't know how to fire.

If you don't build it, you die for sure.

Right up until the end I was convinced the Crucible was a red herring planted by the Reapers. Something to make the organics waste resources on it instead of working on better weapons and defences, or ways to hide.

And you were wrong. Isn't that why you hate it?

lol, better weapons and defenses. Yes, that would've made the difference, surely. You know the Protheans were way more advanced than this cycle and still lost, right?

[themikefest]

Had the Protheans been able to use the relays and Citadel like this cycle, its possible the crucible may of been used during their cycle.

[Farangbaa]

Had the Protheans been able to use the relays and Citadel like this cycle, its possible the crucible may of been used during their cycle.

Absolutely, but that's still building and using the Crucible, instead of not building it at all and relying on conventional warfare like voteDC suggested.

[voteDC]

If you don't build it, you die for sure.
 

But how do they know that. They don't know what it does and they don't know how to fire it or even what the trigger is.

Why on Earth would anyone put all their faith into a device with that many unknowns.
 

And you were wrong. Isn't that why you hate it?

lol, better weapons and defenses. Yes, that would've made the difference, surely. You know the Protheans were way more advanced than this cycle and still lost, right?

That's certainly a part I confess but that just brings the problems I mention above into sharper focus.

Better weaponry. Certainly worked well against the Collectors and that was after two years of research with no urgency behind it.

True the Protheans were more advanced but they also had the limiting factor of losing access to the Mass Relays. Communication and travel across the Empire was crippled after all.

Even they however didn't put all their faith into the Crucible and they knew that they needed to get it to the Citadel (even if they didn't know about the Star Kid.)

[Farangbaa]

But how do they know that. They don't know what it does and they don't know how to fire it or even what the trigger is.

Well eh, they look outside and see the Reapers tearing everything apart? That's how they know they'll die for sure if they don't build it.

Why on Earth would anyone put all their faith into a device with that many unknowns.

See above.

That's certainly a part I confess but that just brings the problems I mention above into sharper focus.

Better weaponry. Certainly worked well against the Collectors and that was after two years of research with no urgency behind it.

Collectors aren't nigh indestructable space Cthulhu's though. I don't really see the point in bringing this up. At best, the Collectors were a stronger version of Husks.

True the Protheans were more advanced but they also had the limiting factor of losing access to the Mass Relays. Communication and travel across the Empire was crippled after all.

Even they however didn't put all their faith into the Crucible and they knew that they needed to get it to the Citadel (even if they didn't know about the Star Kid.)

That the mass relays weren't available to them made it that much harder to put all their efforts into the Crucible. One system had no idea what another system was doing. It's quite a feet they managed to start building it at all.

And if you talk to Javik I think it's pretty obvious the Protheans knew they were fighting a losing battle with conventional warfare. They killed 0 Reapers. The current cycle killed 2 by very unconventional means: a Tresher Maw ( ) and a lucky shot at a weak spot of one type of Reaper (definetly not Harbinger/Sovereign class), using an entire fleet (!) to do so. Which, before this makes you think conventional victory was possible, is not a sustainable way to conduct war. While you use your entire fleet to kill one Reaper, the other couple of hundred Reapers will tear through your fleet. End of fleet.

[Vazgen]

Even they however didn't put all their faith into the Crucible...

Yeah, and their other plan was... freeze a bunch of Protheans in stasis and wait till the invasion is over

[Farangbaa]

Yeah, and their other plan was... freeze a bunch of Protheans in stasis and wait till the invasion is over

I'm fairly certain the Asari did this in the current cycle, or something similar:

 

 

And there you have it, people, ME4!  

[dreamgazer]

Why on Earth would anyone put all their faith into a device with that many unknowns.

Not the first time this cycle blindly trusted Prothean technology, by a long shot. 

ME3's Crucible is essentially the plot of Carl Sagan's Contact, only Shepard's cycle knows and trusts those who bequeathed the plans to them and are desperate for a solution to a problem that they knew it'd solve.

[MrFob]

@Vazgen: Well, this is probably one of the most reasonable explanations I have heard. I basically have two problems with it. For one, I don't really get that from the conversation of the catalyst. True, he does state that his solution won't work anymore in one line but in the rest of the dialogue, he very passionately argues for it. This may be a general problem of that dialogue, which is full of conflicting messages but the catalyst doesn't seem to to want any of this (except for synthesis), which what was the initial argument.
More importantly though, if what you propose is the case, there should be a blatantly obvious alternative win-win scenario. Shepard should in this case be able to just ask the catalyst to stop the harvest. As far as I am concerned, the catalyst doesn't have to die, it can live happily ever after for all I care. I just want the harvest to stop. Now, I get the idea that there may be a self preservation instinct in this AI (EDI has one as well after all) but the catalyst states that itself came up with the idea of the harvest. This was not programmed into it, so there could not be a shackle, preventing the catalyst from stopping it. So apparently it doesn't want to stop. Maybe the problem is that if it would just stop, it would not solve the problem but then, as you say yourself, Destroy doesn't solve it either, which brings me back to the original question, why is the option there?

[n7stormreaver]

Not the first time this cycle blindly trusted Prothean technology, by a long shot. 

ME3's Crucible is essentially the plot of Carl Sagan's Contact, only Shepard's cycle knows and trusts those who bequeathed the plans to them and are desperate for a solution to a problem that they knew it'd solve.

 

It still doesn't make Crucible any kind of interesting\reasonable\imaginative solution, sadly. 

 

Though there is symbolism in it, as Crucible is not our device, and it's also not Prothean device, it's a device of hundreds of organic civilizations of post cycles, so it's not even our victory, but the whole organic-kind victory.

 

Still, not interesting. And too ass-pulled. 

[Farangbaa]

It still doesn't make Crucible any kind of interesting\reasonable\imaginative solution, sadly. 

 

Though there is symbolism in it, as Crucible is not our device, and it's also not Prothean device, it's a device of hundreds of organic civilizations of post cycles, so it's not even our victory, but the whole organic-kind victory.

 

Still, not interesting. And too ass-pulled. 

 

 

That's what makes it so awesome. It's an achievement of countless species over countless millenia.

 

You just don't like it because you, somehow, got it into your head that conventional victory was an option. It has never been an option. Anyone who saw Sovereign at the Citadel should've realized this and to be perfecly honest, it kinda baffles me people thought it was possible at all. Sovereign just lolled his way through the Citadel defense force like they weren't even there. And that was just 1 Reaper.