585 réponses à ce sujet

[n7stormreaver]

 

That's what makes it so awesome. It's an achievement of countless species over countless millenia.

 

You just don't like it because you, somehow, got it into your head that conventional victory was an option. It has never been an option. Anyone who saw Sovereign at the Citadel should've realized this and to be perfecly honest, it kinda baffles me people thought it was possible at all. Sovereign just lolled his way through the Citadel defense force like they weren't even there. And that was just 1 Reaper.

 

Buddy, let me ask you one thing. How did you get that i thought that conventional victory was an option? Come on, now. You must be a medium to get that through internet out of my head. Really, i want to hear it. 

 

Or, you should not speak to people like you know what are they thinking, how about that? 

[Iakus]

It still doesn't make Crucible any kind of interesting\reasonable\imaginative solution, sadly. 

 

Though there is symbolism in it, as Crucible is not our device, and it's also not Prothean device, it's a device of hundreds of organic civilizations of post cycles, so it's not even our victory, but the whole organic-kind victory.

 

Still, not interesting. And too ass-pulled. 

I'd say it's even less "our" victory in that we had no idea what we were constructing.  We were basically a bunch of monkies following a paint-by numbers guide with no clue what was actually being built.

[n7stormreaver]

I'd say it's even less "our" victory in that we had no idea what we were constructing.  We were basically a bunch of monkies following a paint-by numbers guide with no clue what was actually being built.

 

When workers on factory build weapons, do they win war? 

 

Well, maybe this isn't entirely accurate, but that's exactly my beef with Crucible. From Mass Effect 1 i was interested in what we're going to do about the Reapers, what will we come up with?

 

Turns out, it was some blueprint lying on Mars. It's a disappointment. 

 

Sci-Fi often provide "super-device" kind of Deus Ex Machina, but Crucible is just worst example of them. There so many things about it i can't just sit an believe, especially the way it connects to Citadel. 

[Farangbaa]

Buddy, let me ask you one thing. How did you get that i thought that conventional victory was an option? Come on, now. You must be a medium to get that through internet out of my head. Really, i want to hear it. 

 

Or, you should not speak to people like you know what are they thinking, how about that? 

 

Pff, what other options would there have been besides a super weapon if not conventional victory?

[n7stormreaver]

Pff, what other options would there have been besides a super weapon if not conventional victory?

 

That was up to Bioware to think of, they came up with a very lazy and boring solution. Conventional victory could at least be heroic (moronic, unreasonable, unavailable by setting and entirely off the table, but heroic), building some random plot device is not. It's off-screen for 99% of time, even in Starcraft 2 where you also build a super-device it's right there, interacting with your ship, you can see it. And after all the blood spilled to build it, it took as much to do it's job. Crucible is just a hologram and bunch of cutscenes, where is interaction, where is actual work? In dialogs and text logs. I am not impressed. 

[dreamgazer]

Conventional victory would make all previous advanced civilizations look like morons.

Thankfully, especially after ME2, that was never in the cards.

[dreamgazer]

I'd say it's even less "our" victory in that we had no idea what we were constructing.  We were basically a bunch of monkies following a paint-by numbers guide with no clue what was actually being built.

We knew of its destructive capabilities, its ability to target the Reapers specifically, and that the more-advanced Protheans placed faith in it. Tad bit more than your scenario.

[themikefest]

I posted this before. When the Crucible/device was first mentioned, my first thought was that it fires a pulse or something that weakens the reapers.

[ImaginaryMatter]

You just don't like it because you, somehow, got it into your head that conventional victory was an option. It has never been an option. Anyone who saw Sovereign at the Citadel should've realized this and to be perfecly honest, it kinda baffles me people thought it was possible at all. Sovereign just lolled his way through the Citadel defense force like they weren't even there. And that was just 1 Reaper.

 

I think it's ME3 that installs the notion of conventional victory. The Reapers don't appear to be as strong as Sovereign and suddenly entire groups of Reapers are held up by guerrilla tactics, 15 minute plans, smuggling bombs onto capital ships, etc. Not to say that's the way it should have ended, although the way the Crucible was set up that's definitely the way I thought it would end; but half the game is built around gathering conventional forces so I think the game instills it, whether or not it was intended.

[dreamgazer]

I posted this before. When the Crucible/device was first mentioned, my first thought was that it fires a pulse or something that weakens the reapers.

 

Basically like the virus in Independence Day.  

 

How long does the effect last?  Are we capable of wiping them all out at that moment? Can they respond to the pulse?

[dreamgazer]

I think it's ME3 that installs the notion of conventional victory. The Reapers don't appear to be as strong as Sovereign and suddenly entire groups of Reapers are held up by guerrilla tactics, 15 minute plans, smuggling bombs onto capital ships, etc. Not to say that's the way it should have ended, although the way the Crucible was set up that's definitely the way I thought it would end; but half the game is built around gathering conventional forces so I think the game instills it, whether or not it was intended.

 

And Hackett point-blank states that it's all a stalling tactic for the Crucible's construction. 

[themikefest]

Basically like the virus in Independence Day.  

 

How long does the effect last?  Are we capable of wiping them all out at that moment? Can they respond to the pulse?

Somebody asked me before ME3 was released how I thought the reapers would be defeated. I told him maybe a virus or something that weakens their shields.

 

After  the ending, I never gave much thought to the crucible firing a pulse anymore since it never did.

[ImaginaryMatter]

And Hackett point-blank states that it's all a stalling tactic for the Crucible's construction. 

 

And the Council said the Reapers were a Geth construct and the Dalatrass says curing the Genophage was a dumb idea, characters aren't omniscient and they aren't always right; I'm sure the intend was to tell the player that conventional victory was out of the question, but it can be read as something else. My point is that the game has all these little instances where the galaxy as individuals can at least hit the Reapers and that the driving focus for half the game is gathering forces to conventionally take back Earth (which doesn't make sense as a stalling tactic). Plus, his insistence that the Reapers can't be defeated conventionally seems a little daft when his plan seems to do exactly that.

 

Again I'm not advocating this is the way it should have gone, but I think the game very easily creates this expectation. If it was the way the game ended I wouldn't have questioned it anymore than the Crucible's way of solving it.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Pff, what other options would there have been besides a super weapon if not conventional victory?

Intelligent, slightly unconventinal warfare that takes the rules of the Mass Effect universe and uses them to their maximum effect. Some examples that immediately come to mind are putting Mass Relays that lead to Reaper space only into suns or on planets so anyone using th is instantly destroyed (assuming they even work then), blowing up relays in Reaper controlled systems, or blowing up the Citadel to destroy Starbrat although there is no telling what would happen without him (although this one may or may not have been possible).

[n7stormreaver]

And the Council said the Reapers were a Geth construct and the Dalatrass says curing the Genophage was a dumb idea, characters aren't omniscient and they aren't always right; I'm sure the intend was to tell the player that conventional victory was out of the question, but it can be read as something else. My point is that the game has all these little instances where the galaxy as individuals can at least hit the Reapers and that the driving focus for half the game is gathering forces to conventionally take back Earth (which doesn't make sense as a stalling tactic). Plus, his insistence that the Reapers can't be defeated conventionally seems a little daft when his plan seems to do exactly that.

 

Again I'm not advocating this is the way it should have gone, but I think the game very easily creates this expectation. If it was the way the game ended I wouldn't have questioned it anymore than the Crucible's way of solving it.

 

I don't remember when do we exactly gather forces to take Earth back. First mission is to get on Palaven to get Turian Fleet, Turians say they need Krogan, Krogan say they need Cure, we go to Sur'Kesh for cure, then to Tuchanka. Turians now have Krogan, we have Turian fleet. Then we go to Citadel and then to Rannoch to get Quarian or Geth fleet. Then, it's about finding out what is Catalyst. 

 

Then, we realize that Ground War is required (because of beam) and Hackett comes up with the plan and assembles "Hammer", that's basically it.

 

As to "why do we even need fleets then" - Crucible is space-flying thing, it's also very big and would require a hell lot of defense force, even with all it's armor.  

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't remember when do we exactly gather forces to take Earth back. First mission is to get on Palaven to get Turian Fleet, Turians say they need Krogan, Krogan say they need Cure, we go to Sur'Kesh for cure, then to Tuchanka. Turians now have Krogan, we have Turian fleet. Then we go to Citadel and then to Rannoch to get Quarian or Geth fleet. Then, it's about finding out what is Catalyst. 

 

Then, we realize that Ground War is required (because of beam) and Hackett comes up with the plan and assembles "Hammer", that's basically it. 

 

Hackett wants the Turian fleets and Quarian fleets to take back Earth when the time comes. The Turians want the Krogans' help and they say they'll also help Earth when the time comes (out of the Priority missions: Palaven, Sur'Kesh, Tuchunka, Geth Dreadnought, and Rannoch make up about half). Everyone was gung ho to take back Earth long before the Reapers ever moved the Citadel there and it's what drives Shepard to gather all the forces. It would be a different issue if they were being used to guard the Crucible, secure shipping lanes, or actually stall the Reapers like the Asari forces, something like that; but we're repeatedly told about using them to take back Earth.

[n7stormreaver]

Hackett wants the Turian fleets and Quarian fleets to take back Earth when the time comes. The Turians want the Krogans' help and they say they'll also help Earth when the time comes (out of the Priority missions: Palaven, Sur'Kesh, Tuchunka, Geth Dreadnought, and Rannoch make up about half). Everyone was gung ho to take back Earth long before the Reapers ever moved the Citadel there and it's what drives Shepard to gather all the forces. It would be a different issue if they were being used to guard the Crucible, secure shipping lanes, or actually stall the Reapers like the Asari forces, something like that; but we're repeatedly told about using them to take back Earth.

 

Because "Take Back Earth" is a catch-line, Hackett is a human, too, he wants his home back, but that doesn't mean we're really going to fight for Earth. "Take Back Earth" is "Final Fight with The Reapers" kind of thing, not actual fight for Earth. Or as @themikefest suggested, to fight Reapers are weakened by whatever effect Crucible has. 

[Iakus]

We knew of its destructive capabilities, its ability to target the Reapers specifically, and that the more-advanced Protheans placed faith in it. Tad bit more than your scenario.

 

Yeah it uses a lot of power, therefore it's potentially destructive.  So are a lot of things.  Like an exploding relay. 

 

We don't know it can target Reapers specifically, we know it was something the Protheans hoped to use against the Reapers.  In what capacity was never stated.  Nor did we know why the Protheans had such faith in it.  They might have gone "THEY CAN"T BE DEFEATED CONVENTIONALLY, OH NOES!!!" and threw a bunch of resources into this lottery ticket too.

[Iakus]

Intelligent, slightly unconventinal warfare that takes the rules of the Mass Effect universe and uses them to their maximum effect. Some examples that immediately come to mind are putting Mass Relays that lead to Reaper space only into suns or on planets so anyone using th is instantly destroyed (assuming they even work then), blowing up relays in Reaper controlled systems, or blowing up the Citadel to destroy Starbrat although there is no telling what would happen without him (although this one may or may not have been possible).

 

Not to mention developing weapons which kinetic barriers are inneffective against. Discovering detection/cures for indoctrination (we know detection is possible, and blocking is likely) and so on.

 

unconventional victory =/= space magic.

Conventional victory =/= headlong charge

[ImaginaryMatter]

Because "Take Back Earth" is a catch-line, Hackett is a human, too, he wants his home back, but that doesn't mean we're really going to fight for Earth. "Take Back Earth" is "Final Fight with The Reapers" kind of thing, not actual fight for Earth. Or as @themikefest suggested, to fight Reapers are weakened by whatever effect Crucible has. 

 

It's what all the species representatives say as well.

[Vazgen]

@Vazgen: Well, this is probably one of the most reasonable explanations I have heard. I basically have two problems with it. For one, I don't really get that from the conversation of the catalyst. True, he does state that his solution won't work anymore in one line but in the rest of the dialogue, he very passionately argues for it. This may be a general problem of that dialogue, which is full of conflicting messages but the catalyst doesn't seem to to want any of this (except for synthesis), which what was the initial argument.
More importantly though, if what you propose is the case, there should be a blatantly obvious alternative win-win scenario. Shepard should in this case be able to just ask the catalyst to stop the harvest. As far as I am concerned, the catalyst doesn't have to die, it can live happily ever after for all I care. I just want the harvest to stop. Now, I get the idea that there may be a self preservation instinct in this AI (EDI has one as well after all) but the catalyst states that itself came up with the idea of the harvest. This was not programmed into it, so there could not be a shackle, preventing the catalyst from stopping it. So apparently it doesn't want to stop. Maybe the problem is that if it would just stop, it would not solve the problem but then, as you say yourself, Destroy doesn't solve it either, which brings me back to the original question, why is the option there?

For dialogue, it is logical for the Catalyst to argue for Synthesis. In its own words "it's the ideal solution". It allows to execute the very solution it's trying to achieve from the start - merge organic and synthetic life. In its mind it is the most logical and perfect solution. Control and Destroy result in it being changed/destroyed and it actively tries to oppose it. For as long as you haven't picked a choice, the old solution is still working - harvest continues. It does claim that the solution will not work anymore, but that is applied to the next cycles.

It is also tied to the second problem you mentioned. It can't just stop, doing so will mean abandoning the solution of the problem, its task. Destroy doesn't solve it either, but there will be no Reapers around to interfere, it's still a chance for the organic life to develop a new solution. Organics have the understanding of Reaper technology (and perhaps even more from working on the Crucible). And no cycle had proven more capable than this one. Reapers are a great example of what the synthetic life can achieve and they had countless cycles to evolve. If organics can destroy the Reapers, they will be more than ready for any new emergence of hostile synthetic life. However, it 1) doesn't leave Catalyst an option to monitor the situation (and is perhaps viewed as abandoning its task) 2) will result in a loss of synthetic life (now and in the future, peace won't last) and so it advises against it.

[n7stormreaver]

It's what all the species representatives say as well.

 

Crucible is designed to kill Reapers. Reapers' base now is Earth, there is majority of them here. If Crucible requires contact with Reapers, it would have to be at Earth, but it doesn't mean we're going to rush into ground-war on Earth.

 

The most reasonable way to fight on Earth would be to deplete Reaper-forces (Husks and whatnot) if they're not self-destroyed with Reaper Ships. 

[Reorte]

Pff, what other options would there have been besides a super weapon if not conventional victory?

Don't know, that was why I was looking forward to finding out in ME3 and why I was disappointed. I expected it to somehow involve things learned from the wreckage of Sovereign though, a possibly unique chance that other cycles would've lacked.

[Barquiel]

Conventional victory would make all previous advanced civilizations look like morons.

I think Bioware never wanted a conventional victory in the first place (and it would have left little for Shepard to do in the end game), but the crucible isn't any better in this regard.

[dreamgazer]

I think Bioware never wanted a conventional victory in the first place (and it would have left little for Shepard to do in the end game), but the crucible isn't any better in this regard.

At least it takes previous advanced civilizations into account through its layering of technology.

Conventional/unconventional "military" victory assumes that the previous cycles were simply incompetent.