585 réponses à ce sujet

[n7stormreaver]

At least it takes previous advanced civilizations into account through its layering of technology.

Conventional/unconventional "military" victory assumes that the previous cycles were simply incompetent.

 

OR they didn't kill Sovereign to recover some tech from it. Like Thanix Weaponry. What if Turians came up with even more advanced type of Reaper-Killing Thanix Cannon? 

[Ranadiel Marius]

At least it takes previous advanced civilizations into account through its layering of technology.

Conventional/unconventional "military" victory assumes that the previous cycles were simply incompetent.

Not necessarily, using mass relays in tactics is something that was unavailable in previous cycles since the Reapers always took them over first in previous cycles giving them complete control over the war in the first battle which the protheans prevented this time.

Anyways, I don't see how showing previous species would be any worse than showing that the current group of species are complete morons like they did.

[Barquiel]

At least it takes previous advanced civilizations into account through its layering of technology.

Conventional/unconventional "military" victory assumes that the previous cycles were simply incompetent.

It's simply hard to accept that no cycle built the crucible before the reapers attacked. The Catalyst says that the Crucible design/plans/blueprints first appeared several cycles ago and were passed down from cycle to cycle....but we're obviously supposed to believe the crucible was never finished. I mean, our excuse is that we didn't understand the warnings because we were not evolved to the same mental capability of the Protheans. But the next cycle has no problems to understand Liara's message in the refuse ending, and they used the crucible before the reapers arrived.

[JamesFaith]

At least it takes previous advanced civilizations into account through its layering of technology.

Conventional/unconventional "military" victory assumes that the previous cycles were simply incompetent.

 

Agreed.

 

When I'm seeing here suggested solution like nuclear bombs, lasers, EMP or viruses, my first thought is that previous civilization have to be very primitive or incompetent when they didn't tried something so obvious.

[dreamgazer]

OR they didn't kill Sovereign to recover some tech from it. Like Thanix Weaponry. What if Turians came up with even more advanced type of Reaper-Killing Thanix Cannon?

If there's one Derelict reaper, then there had to be others. Had to be other civilizations/cycles that discovered the key to the keepers and relays, too, given that they're all wiped out at a comparable level of advancement. Why is this cycle so special? Hint: they're not, and the Reapers purged evidence of everything happening similarly to this before. The only fact we know is that all previous civilizations across millions (billions) of years were equally advanced, often more so, and all of them failed.

Allowing some kind of "military" victory to happen in this cycle would crack open the widest of plot holes in the entire trilogy.

[Farangbaa]

I was going to post things, but then Dreamgazer happened and I can just smoke my weed.

[Farangbaa]

Agreed.

 

When I'm seeing here suggested solution like nuclear bombs, lasers, EMP or viruses, my first thought is that previous civilization have to be very primitive or incompetent when they didn't tried something so obvious.

 

Especially the EMP, which I have seen suggested multiple times, is so friggin hilarious. The war with the Reapers would've been over before it even started.

 

Also a common thing I've heard is that 'they should've just attacked the Reapers from behind!' Like no one else in all the countless cycles before never would've though of something as crazy simple as that.

[n7stormreaver]

If there's one Derelict reaper, then there had to be others. Had to be other civilizations/cycles that discovered the key to the keepers and relays, too, given that they're all wiped out at a comparable level of advancement. Why is this cycle so special? Hint: they're not, and the Reapers purged evidence of everything happening similarly to this before. The only fact we know is that all previous civilizations across millions (billions) of years were equally advanced, often more so, and all of them failed.

Allowing some kind of "military" victory to happen in this cycle would crack open the widest of plot holes in the entire trilogy.

 

That's why i specifically mentioned Sovereign. This guy was special and they could pull out of his ass anything and it could possibly be much more reasonable than Crucible.

 

At least it would've been something we've earned, not handed. 

[Reorte]

If there's one Derelict reaper, then there had to be others. Had to be other civilizations/cycles that discovered the key to the keepers and relays, too, given that they're all wiped out at a comparable level of advancement. Why is this cycle so special? Hint: they're not, and the Reapers purged evidence of everything happening similarly to this before. The only fact we know is that all previous civilizations across millions (billions) of years were equally advanced, often more so, and all of them failed.

That means that no means of victory whatsoever will be sound at all plausible. The Crucible plans surviving through many cycles seems about as convincing as conventional victory, i.e. not at all. Some retconning to reduce the number of cycles to a small number, perhaps a dozen at the most, was probably needed.

It sounds like there likely would be other derelict Reapers so why weren't they studied? With enough cycles someone else would've done that and learned enough. Perhaps with time enough of them is shut down and properly wiped and / or completely destroyed, leaving only the ability to indoctrinate and stay put (the one in ME2 is barely functional at all), actually blowing Sovereign to bits before it's had a chance to do any deliberate self-sabotage and with no other Reapers around to mop up his remains could've been the key.

All the tech suggestions are pretty crazy, especially when the Reapers could almost certainly use them back at us, and probably with more powerful versions.

[MrFob]

For dialogue, it is logical for the Catalyst to argue for Synthesis. In its own words "it's the ideal solution". It allows to execute the very solution it's trying to achieve from the start - merge organic and synthetic life. In its mind it is the most logical and perfect solution.

That, I get and it's fine (as far as the catalyst's motives are concerned)

Control and Destroy result in it being changed/destroyed and it actively tries to oppose it.

No it doesn't. It is passive, not active. Shepard is the one who makes the decision and the catalyst presents them. If it were active, it would prevent Shepard from choosing the other two, which - as we previously established - it could.

For as long as you haven't picked a choice, the old solution is still working - harvest continues. It does claim that the solution will not work anymore, but that is applied to the next cycles.

I think we are going in circles here. This is somewhat contrary to the idea in your previous post, that the catalyst is realizing that it and it's reapers are part of the problem. Remember, the catalyst came up with the harvest and reaper idea itself. There is no shackle on it that makes it harvest.

It is also tied to the second problem you mentioned. It can't just stop, doing so will mean abandoning the solution of the problem, its task. Destroy doesn't solve it either, but there will be no Reapers around to interfere, it's still a chance for the organic life to develop a new solution.

So what distinguishes destroy from the catalyst just stopping on his own?
 

Organics have the understanding of Reaper technology (and perhaps even more from working on the Crucible). And no cycle had proven more capable than this one. Reapers are a great example of what the synthetic life can achieve and they had countless cycles to evolve. If organics can destroy the Reapers, they will be more than ready for any new emergence of hostile synthetic life.

But they can't destroy the reapers. They can only destroy them because they let themselves be destroyed. The catalyst even says that it believes so himself "your children will create synthetics and the conflict will begin again."

However, it 1) doesn't leave Catalyst an option to monitor the situation (and is perhaps viewed as abandoning its task)

So it does abandon it's task after all with destroy? (see my other question above)

2) will result in a loss of synthetic life (now and in the future, peace won't last) and so it advises against it.

Ok, so if I understand this correctly, you are saying that it's ok for the catalyst to stop the cycle now if Shepard chooses destroy because after that, the organics have the crucible and therefore destroy any future synthetic life all over again as often as they like. Therefore it is ensured that organics will always be "on top" so to speak. Please correct me if I am wrong, 'cause I am really not sure if I interpret you correctly there.
Problem is: the crucible requires the catalyst to work. We actually have no idea how it works (as Shepard even tells the catalyst), why it needs the catalyst or how it destroys the synthetics. All we do is shoot a tube. The catalyst (i.e. the synthetic) actually works the magic. So now we can build a super-weapon against synthetics that can only be operated with the help of synthetics.

We could continue extrapolating scenarios here but I guess the crux is, that destroy doesn't change the galaxy a lot. It doesn't suddenly give us some new tech, we couldn't have anyway and it doesn't give us some greater understanding and it doesn't protect us from the synthetics in the future (as the catalyst states itself). The only thing it does is that the catalyst and the reapers basically commit suicide with Shepard's help. So I still don't see the motive for it to offer the choice.

{Sorry for taking your post apart. I usually hate doing it but there were a lot of different notions in this post and addressing them in just one answer was a bit too much of a wall of text.)

[Farangbaa]

I think we are going in circles here. This is somewht contrary to the idea in your previous post, that the catalyst is realizing that it and it's reapers are part of the problem.

Aah. But if the Shepard in the decision room happens to be a *bleeping bleep* and doesn't choose at all, the harvest is still the best solution to the problem.

(maybe not worthy to mention, but: the Catalyst can not operate the Crucible)

[dreamgazer]

That's why i specifically mentioned Sovereign. This guy was special and they could pull out of his ass anything and it could be much more reasonable than Crucible.

What's special about Sovereign, other than the fact that he picked the short straw for Citadel duty?

Why would the key to the Reapers' defeat exist in the one member of their numbers in the proximity of danger?

[Obadiah]

That's why i specifically mentioned Sovereign. This guy was special and they could pull out of his ass anything and it could possibly be much more reasonable than Crucible.

At least it would've been something we've earned, not handed.

I think that fighting the Reaper's plan at every turn, surviving the initial Reaper invasion, coming together, marshalling the resources required to build the Crucible, and building it while our civilizations are being wiped out, are not insignificant accomplishments, and easily qualifies as "earned".

[themikefest]

The Leviathan turd may not be able to operate the crucible, but it can turn it off

[von uber]

The current cycle killed 2 by very unconventional means

 

Sovereign, The destroyer on Tchunka, the destroyer on Rannoch, several in cutscenes (can't be bothered counting), Leviathan kills one, two destroyers on earth, Battle of Palaven destroys several capital ships, Miracle of Palaven also, The Asari are hinted at destroying a few in hit and run attacks..

 

Quite a casualty list really.

[dreamgazer]

That means that no means of victory whatsoever will be sound at all plausible. The Crucible plans surviving through many cycles seems about as convincing as conventional victory, i.e. not at all. Some retconning to reduce the number of cycles to a small number, perhaps a dozen at the most, was probably needed.

Blueprints surviving deep in databanks away from the Reapers' purging (and, as the Catalyst stated, thought to be "eradicated") is much more plausible than discovering the key to military victory when billions of years of equally-advanced civilizations haven't been able to do so. Lots of retconning, back to the drawing board of ME1, would be needed to make it possible.

[SporkFu]

I hate it because how did anyone expect to use it?

The design, at least in our cycle, relies on a trigger that no-one knows even exists. Why waste so many resources on a device you don't know how to fire.

Right up until the end I was convinced the Crucible was a red herring planted by the Reapers. Something to make the organics waste resources on it instead of working on better weapons and defences, or ways to hide.

 "A missing component, referred to only as the catalyst," said by Liara on Mars, right at the beginning of the game. We didn't know what the catalyst was yet, but we knew there was a catalyst. I don't remember the exact quote from Hackett, but he says (basically) "everything we're doing is a delaying action for you, shep, so you can find what we need to finish this thing." 

 

Yeah, we put a lot of faith in (what we thought was) a prothean weapon, but ...well... what choice was there? Saren's choice? I'll take my chances on the red herring. 

[n7stormreaver]

I think that fighting the Reaper's plan at every turn, surviving the initial Reaper invasion, coming together, marshalling the resources required to build the Crucible, and building it while our civilizations are being wiped out, are not insignificant accomplishments, and easily qualifies as "earned".

 

I am talking about Crucible precisely, we didn't earn nor technology nor way to defeat the Reapers, we pulled it out of some random Prothean archive on random planet. (Humanity wasn't that promising 50k years ago, so it IS random archive on random planet, if it was near Thessia, on other hand...) 

 

If it was something that our scientists found out studying remains of one of the most powerful Reapers and learned how to use it, it would've been the whole different kind of story. 

[dreamgazer]

I think that fighting the Reaper's plan at every turn, surviving the initial Reaper invasion, coming together, marshalling the resources required to build the Crucible, and building it while our civilizations are being wiped out, are not insignificant accomplishments, and easily qualifies as "earned".

I was getting to this post next, but Obadiah essentially said what I was going to say.

[Farangbaa]

Sovereign, The destroyer on Tchunka, the destroyer on Rannoch, several in cutscenes (can't be bothered counting), Leviathan kills one, two destroyers on earth, Battle of Palaven destroys several capital ships, Miracle of Palaven also, The Asari are hinted at destroying a few in hit and run attacks..
 
Quite a casualty list really.

Woah, how I forgot about Sovereign is beyond me

But yeah, that's quite a casualty list. It's still far away from conventional victory though, considering the casualties on the side of the organics and the Geth.

(and it makes the comment of one of the developpers that the Reapers normally have zero casuaulties per cycle very odd)

[n7stormreaver]

(and it makes the comment of one of the developpers that the Reapers normally have zero casuaulties per cycle very odd)

 

 

Consistency. 

[Obadiah]

I am talking about Crucible precisely, we didn't earn nor technology nor way to defeat the Reapers, we pulled it out of some random Prothean archive on random planet. (Humanity wasn't that promising 50k years ago, so it IS random archive on random planet, if it was near Thessia, on other hand...)

If it was something that our scientists found out studying remains of one of the most powerful Reapers and learned how to use it, it would've been the whole different kind of story.

I don't think the specific change in manner of acquisition of the plans for the Crucible would really change the quality of the story, or make it that much more plausible or acceptable. Just as a general example, if we failed in this cycle, wouldn't we want to make the plans available to the next cycle? Does Vendetta not act as a gatekeeper of a crucial piece of the plan to ensure that we are... er... worthy?

[n7stormreaver]

I don't think the specific change in manner of acquisition of the plans for the Crucible would really change the quality of the story, or make it that much more plausible. Just as a general example, if we failed in this cycle, wouldn't we want to make the plans available to the next cycle?

 

There is no reason not to. But WE have killed Sovereign and it was also stated that Reapers don't have casualties (how consistent is that?), that why we could be the first ones to find something out.

 

Right now it's "Don't have time to explain why i don't have time to explain" kind of explanation for Crucible and it's boring. If they at least cared to explain HOW did anyone come up with such device and WHY didn't anyone find it's connection port on Citadel. (It's position is very obvious) There is too many plot-holes about Crucible, if it was designed in our cycle by killing a freaking Sovereign there could be far less of them and quite a bit more sense. 

[Reorte]

Blueprints surviving deep in databanks away from the Reapers' purging (and, as the Catalyst stated, thought to be "eradicated") is much more plausible than discovering the key to military victory when billions of years of equally-advanced civilizations haven't been able to do so. Lots of retconning, back to the drawing board of ME1, would be needed to make it possible.

Surviving the purging every single cycle isn't at all plausible. Having them thought to be eradicated makes it even more far-fetched, because if they're known to exist then you'd expect them to be extra-careful about making sure they're gone. If they'd just been Prothean plans it would've been somewhat better (surviving one purge, perhaps even two I could swallow). A Crucible-like device, the result of a build-up over many millenia, races long dead effectively co-operaeting each other over time as well as current ones over space makes a nice theme, it's just not one that I can see could be made to work convincingly.

Studying a recently working Reaper when the rest of them aren't breathing down your neck on the other hand is probably pretty unique.

[MrFob]

Aah. But if the Shepard in the decision room happens to be a *bleeping bleep* and doesn't choose at all, the harvest is still the best solution to the problem.

Ok, if the catalyst does not see itself as the problem, than please go back to my first two posts in this thread. As I said, I think we are going in circles.
 

(maybe not worthy to mention, but: the Catalyst can not operate the Crucible)

The catalyst is THE integral component without which the crucible won't work. That's what the entire game is about. Maybe "operating" was the wrong word though, I agree. Still, whoever operates it needs the catalyst.