585 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

Disagree. I played my Shepard as willing to make any personal sacrifice for the good of all, and it... well, worked. Not happily, precisely, but the story ended in a manner satisfying enough for me.

Then we must disagree.  Even with the whole "Shepard lives" question aside, I found all the endings repulsive.  There was no end worth dying for, no outcome worth living through.

 

It kinda reminds me of Morgoth's curse on the children of Hurin:

 

 

“Upon all who you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair.  Wherever they go, evil shall arise.  Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel.  Whatsover they do shall turn against them.  They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death"

[teh DRUMPf!!]

No, it doesn't (although some of those are the most likely outcome). It comes from the very idea of forcing it on everything being utterly abhorrent. And completely ludicrous.

 

Nobody has really raised issue with that lately so it wasn't on my mind.

 

Personally, I reject that idea. As a solution to the end-problem, in a vacuum, it is still valid -- at least this way you've kept your forms intact, there may just be some new conditions to your life. Without it, though, you become the paste inside of a Reaper or a husk, which is a forced changed of far greater effect, so to support inaction over enacting this solution is basically illogical. Thus, we can do away with Refuse.

 

re: "But HYR it's not the only solution, there are other options!" In the interest of time we will accept Destroy and Control also as valid solutions to the problem at hand. Is either one of those any "more valid" than Green? I don't buy it, really. Destroy may pose less of an imposition, but it does impose itself on a group of people that do not get any say on the matter. Control forces less yet (just one onto the Reapers), yet I do not see an overwhelming number of people running to embrace it as the best choice, so clearly that is not the end-all/be-all here.

 

Often it is argued that Destroy has the most support from the people and should be picked for that reason. Actually, it has the most support largely by default (assuming most people do not see being harvested as an acceptable option), not because people actually prefer it over these other two options; they also did not know that all synthetics would be targeted in the process of destroying the Reapers. We have no way of polling the galaxy. Say we did, should we follow the majority vote blindly? Imagine, then, that we did poll the galaxy and Green or Blue came out on top. If what the people truly want matters to you, then tell me you'd pick those options for them. Otherwise, admit you're just choosing what you yourself want. It's okay, that's what everyone is doing anyway, myself included.

 

Then again, I am an opponent of public policy driven by popular demand.

[Xilizhra]

Then we must disagree.  Even with the whole "Shepard lives" question aside, I found all the endings repulsive.  There was no end worth dying for, no outcome worth living through.

 

It kinda reminds me of Morgoth's curse on the children of Hurin:

 

 

“Upon all who you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair.  Wherever they go, evil shall arise.  Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel.  Whatsover they do shall turn against them.  They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death"

Stopping the Reapers isn't that?

[Iakus]

Stopping the Reapers isn't that?

Not at the cost demanded.

[Iakus]

Nobody has really raised issue with that lately so it wasn't on my mind.

 

Personally, I reject that idea. As a solution to the end-problem, in a vacuum, it is still valid -- at least this way you've kept your forms intact, there may just be some new conditions to your life. Without it, though, you become the paste inside of a Reaper or a husk, which is a forced changed of far greater effect, so to support inaction over enacting this solution is basically illogical. Thus, we can do away with Refuse.

 

re: "But HYR it's not the only solution, there are other options!" In the interest of time we will accept Destroy and Control also as valid solutions to the problem at hand. Is either one of those any "more valid" than Green? I don't buy it, really. Destroy may pose less of an imposition, but it does impose itself on a group of people that do not get any say on the matter. Control forces less yet (just one onto the Reapers), yet I do not see an overwhelming number of people running to embrace it as the best choice, so clearly that is not the end-all/be-all here.

 

Often it is argued that Destroy has the most support from the people and should be picked for that reason. Actually, it has the most support largely by default (assuming most people do not see being harvested as an acceptable option), not because people actually prefer it over these other two options; they also did not know that all synthetics would be targeted in the process of destroying the Reapers. We have no way of polling the galaxy. Say we did, should we follow the majority vote blindly? Imagine, then, that we did poll the galaxy and Green or Blue came out on top. If what the people truly want matters to you, then tell me you'd pick those options for them. Otherwise, admit you're just choosing what you yourself want. It's okay, that's what everyone is doing anyway, myself included.

 

Then again, I am an opponent of public policy driven by popular demand.

 

All the chocies impose themselves on others.

 

Blue may put the Reapers under new management, but the entire galaxy comes under the management of the Reapers.  No one is free to find their own paths.

 

Synthesis may not reduce the organics of the galaxy to smoothies, but it does alter everyone at the genetic level to achieve some arbitrary definition of "perfection" which is a fallacious conclusion by default.  You have told the entire galaxy that they are unworthy of existing as they are, and need to be "changed" That gives me really really bad vibes. 

[DrBlingzle]

Not at the cost demanded.

I can see why you would have problems with control and synthesis but you're saying killing all synthetics is too high a price for stopping the reapers? They're all going to die along with the rest of the galaxy if the reapers aren't stopped.

[Vazgen]

Not at the cost demanded.

There is only one answer

[Sir DeLoria]

Destroy is bad?

[n7stormreaver]

Destroy is bad?

It doesn't solve anything but immediate problems. 

 

As in, Synthetic-Organic dilemma may appear later at even worse scale. (Remember - Leviathans* thought it was all okay until they made an AI capable of decimating them. See how that turned out.)

 

*You know, ancient uber-powerful species with God Complex and ability to subjugate organics that are still around, unchecked. 

[Sir DeLoria]

It doesn't solve anything but immediate problems.

If we actually believe the catalyst...

[n7stormreaver]

If we actually believe the catalyst...

I've expanded my post concerning this topic. 

[Sir DeLoria]

I've expanded my post concerning this topic.

Well, we can always nuke their homeplanet...

And I'm really not sure about the whole "organics and synthetics can't get along" theme.

[Xilizhra]

Not at the cost demanded.

So you'd rather they kill everyone?

[Iakus]

I can see why you would have problems with control and synthesis but you're saying killing all synthetics is too high a price for stopping the reapers? They're all going to die along with the rest of the galaxy if the reapers aren't stopped.

And dying by my hand rather than the Reapers somehow makes it okay?  How is that "fun"?

[Iakus]

So you'd rather they kill everyone?

 

I'd rather not play at all, actually.

[n7stormreaver]

Well, we can always nuke their homeplanet...

And I'm really not sure about the whole "organics and synthetics can't get along" theme.

 

They have no homeplanet and they can traverse galaxy using only their bodies. It's not like we have any chance if there is war + those guys are incredibly subtle. No one is going to even recognize the threat. 

 

As for the O\S theme, well, it has already proven itself to be consistent at least in ME universe, so lasting solution is really needed. That's what, essentially, the whole series and storyline since Leviathan times is about. 

[Iakus]

 

 

As for the O\S theme, well, it has already proven itself to be consistent at least in ME universe, so lasting solution is really needed. That's what, essentially, the whole series and storyline since Leviathan times is about. 

Actually, it hasn't

 

Aside from the Morning War, there is no evidence of large-scale organic/synthetic hostilities the Reapers themselves didn't instigate.

[n7stormreaver]

Actually, it hasn't

 

Aside from the Morning War, there is no evidence of large-scale organic/synthetic hostilities the Reapers themselves didn't instigate.

Ask Leviathan about that. There is also no evidence because we know absolutely nothing about times before our cycle. There is Reaper that's 37 million years old, Cycle is 50.000 years, there would be no less than million cycles, we just can't have info about every one. 

 

All we have is *our* cycle where if not for Shepard Geth\Quarian stuff would end very badly and Leviathan times where many organic civilizations were destroyed by their own synthetics. 

[KaiserShep]

Shepard was essentially against the whole Reaper agenda for the most part of 3 games. He wanted to destroy the Reapers, up until the point of meeting the Catalyst. Now he essentially goes against destroying them, and allows them to live? Now he is the Reapers, instead of being allied with his friends that he helped recruit to destroy the Reapers? All his allies want the Reapers dead too. Sounds like a complete 180 from what Shepard's initial plan was, which was to destroy them.

 

The other options other than destroy do not fit with Shepard's initial agenda. They fit with the Reaper's agenda. Shepard is helping the Reapers. He is doing their job for them.

 

Well, the main objective is to get them to stop killing everything. Any plan can be subject to change as new data presents itself, and with a lack of options, the obvious plan to start with would not likely be diplomatic. The same is true of the geth. If Legion never made the scene, then any idea of a truly peaceful solution with the geth would never present itself.

 

The reapers' agenda doesn't matter, because once they are controlled, destroyed or "synthesized", that agenda is either undone or resolved in the case of synthesis. As for Shepard's allies, the geth and EDI do count among these, so if allies are a big concern, that does kind of give more of a reason to choose not to destroy the reapers, since they're hostage to this choice.

[DrBlingzle]

And dying by my hand rather than the Reapers somehow makes it okay?  How is that "fun"?

It's not "fun"- its not supposed to be, its war - but it's saving billions of lives (organic ones, anyway). If you can't see the difference between "being killed by reapers and dooming billions upon billions" and "dying by your own hand while sacrificing millions to save billions upon billions" thats a problem. 

[Vazgen]

It's not "fun"- its not supposed to be, its war - but it's saving billions of lives (organic ones, anyway). If you can't see the difference between "being killed by reapers and dooming billions upon billions" and "dying by your own hand while sacrificing millions to save billions upon billions" thats a problem. 

I believe by "fun" Iakus means having fun while playing a game as stated in another thread (happened to see recently). Though in that case I don't understand why bring the arguments of cost, or dying by own hand into the equation

[Excella Gionne]

There's no place like home. 

[Display Name Owner]

It doesn't solve anything but immediate problems. 

 

As in, Synthetic-Organic dilemma may appear later at even worse scale. (Remember - Leviathans* thought it was all okay until they made an AI capable of decimating them. See how that turned out.)

 

*You know, ancient uber-powerful species with God Complex and ability to subjugate organics that are still around, unchecked. 

 

The thing is, the worst example of the Synthetic problem are the Reapers themselves. And they were only created as a result of the Leviathans' attempt to... solve that very problem. I mean, apparently Synthetic conflicts took place more than once under the Leviathans' rule, and yet it was never enough to eradicate them or their society (so presumably their thralls either) until they went and created the Catalyst.

 

The existence of the Leviathans is a potential problem though. Maybe the big problem in ME4, who knows?

[Iakus]

Ask Leviathan about that. There is also no evidence because we know absolutely nothing about times before our cycle. There is Reaper that's 37 million years old, Cycle is 50.000 years, there would be no less than million cycles, we just can't have info about every one. 

 

All we have is *our* cycle where if not for Shepard Geth\Quarian stuff would end very badly and Leviathan times where many organic civilizations were destroyed by their own synthetics. 

 

Yeah, there's only the Catalyst's word, and the word of the race that built the Catalyst and yet insists "There was no mistake, it still serves its purpose"  hard to take either seriously with that Insane Troll Logic.  If I'm going to change the galaxy forever, I want empirical data, not hearsay.

 

And fyi, the quarians were not destroyed by the geth, and in fact the quarians would have come back and wiped them out if the Reapers had not shown up and interferred.

[Iakus]

There is only one answer

 

 

"We start killing our friends, and war turns into murder"

 

 

It's not "fun"- its not supposed to be, its war - but it's saving billions of lives (organic ones, anyway). If you can't see the difference between "being killed by reapers and dooming billions upon billions" and "dying by your own hand while sacrificing millions to save billions upon billions" thats a problem. 

 

It's a game.  It's supposed to be fun.