237 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'd say that it punishes you for indecision.

Which might be okay, if neutrality were equivalent to indecision.

[ahtf]

Like someone else wrote. I think mass effect has the best idea for a system. It's not really good and evil. Where paragon is dooing what is morally right all the time. While renegade is dooing what is safe, sacrifice some for the " greater Hood" etc. problem is however that they made it so that the paragon choice always was right. This is booring. I believe that if you choose to use your resources to protect exactly everyone and let everyone who ever betray you live. It should sometimes mean you lose stuff. Example you lose two villages because you spread your soldiers to thin trying to protect to many places at once etc.

[batlin]

Like someone else wrote. I think mass effect has the best idea for a system. It's not really good and evil. Where paragon is dooing what is morally right all the time. While renegade is dooing what is safe, sacrifice some for the " greater Hood" etc. problem is however that they made it so that the paragon choice always was right. This is booring. I believe that if you choose to use your resources to protect exactly everyone and let everyone who ever betray you live. It should sometimes mean you lose stuff. Example you lose two villages because you spread your soldiers to thin trying to protect to many places at once etc.

I dunno. The only reason it works better is because Shepard is always Shepard, regardless of what temperment you want to play as. No matter what dialogue options you choose he's always the duty-bound soldier type. The Warden, by contrast, could be played with a huge amount of personalities ranging from saintly to downright cruel. The problem with the Warden's evil path was that you have to just assume that he's not acting out of selflessness to stop the Blight, but rather for self-preservation.

[Xilizhra]

You don't even need to be outright evil to be a Dark Jedi/Sith type. 

 

All you have to do is be human. 

 

Look at Anakin. Mom gets killed by Sand people. He gets pissed off and slaughters them. A totally natural response if you ask me. lol.. Yet that's Dark Side in SW.

Well... yes... mass murder is of the dark side... I don't see how that's controversial?

 

Also, the thing with Palpatine is that the equivalents of his party and advisers were all themselves evil, and he was deceiving outsiders. That doesn't work when your subordinates are basically good.

[Xilizhra]

I just meant he wasn't outright evil. Like doing it for the lulz or something... He shifts from a gentle scene with his mother dying in his arms to anger and revenge. It's more complicated than simply being "evil".

 

Strangely, Palaptine doesn't try to appeal to Anakin's darker impulses. He taps into his care and love for others. His fear of death and wanting to protect people.

And the fact that such feelings can lead to the dark side like that is exactly why the Jedi try to discourage them.

 

And it's not that Anakin is an evil person at that point in time (mostly because he seemed to regret it afterward), but it's the beginning of a slippery slope.

[Super Drone]

How about instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, they instead do what I suggest and make evil fun for players who like to play evil characters and present the theme of ever-present temptation to players who like to play good characters? In order to do that, once again, evil characters need the option to remain subtle and there needs to be a better material reward for compromising your virtue.

 

 

Because being punished for wanting to be a hero sucks? Because in the real world, being good and doing the right thing is a mixed bag, where sometimes you are actually rewarded, and only sometimes do you have to sacrifice? Because resisting temptation doesn't need to be a theme rammed down our throats 24/7?

 

Take your pick.

[viperidae]

you would feel quite sad playing KOTOR 2, i'm sure.

[prosthetic soul]

BioWare needs to go back to making RPGs that let you be as evil as ****.  Like in KOTOR and Jade Empire.  I'm tired of this Full blown saint or...."selfish jerkass" thing BioWare seems to be enamored with of late.  It should full blown saint or full blown SATAN.  Well, and there should be a lot of gray for those neutral lovers too. 

[Elissiaro]

BioWare needs to go back to making RPGs that let you be as evil as ****.  Like in KOTOR and Jade Empire.  I'm tired of this Full blown saint or...."selfish jerkass" thing BioWare seems to be enamored with of late.  It should full blown saint or full blown SATAN.  Well, and there should be a lot of gray for those neutral lovers too. 

 

I liked the idea of the Closed Fist in Jade Empire... The whole, if you're not even gonna fight for yourself you deserve what happens to you, aka not all that evil sounding actually. The execution, not so much.

 

I remember a choice on the pirate island.

 

With a girl you just rescued from being "trained" into becoming an obedient slave and her and the owner-to-be are the survivors.

And you can basically send him off, sell her to him, or give her a knife and tell her to handle it on her own basically.

 

Giving her a knife is the choice that fits the Closed Fist best, and it turns her into a raging psycho for no apparent reason.

And one character who is all for closed fist is all "Omg evuls!". I don't remember if he disapproves or if there are no changes. Selling her, on the other hand, gets his approval.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Shepard is always Shepard, regardless of what temperment you want to play as. No matter what dialogue options you choose he's always the duty-bound soldier type.

Which, I think, made him uninteresting to play. I couldn't ever really do anything with him; he was always the same.

But, based on my experience there, I did actually create and play a duty-bound Warden, and that was a lot of fun. Because I got to choose it.

The problem with the Warden's evil path was that you have to just assume that he's not acting out of selflessness to stop the Blight, but rather for self-preservation.

Isn't that typically what we do with the PC's motives? That's certainly what I do.

[In Exile]

Which, I think, made him uninteresting to play. I couldn't ever really do anything with him; he was always the same.

But, based on my experience there, I did actually create and play a duty-bound Warden, and that was a lot of fun. Because I got to choose it.
Isn't that typically what we do with the PC's motives? That's certainly what I do.

You don't even need that motivation. An LE Warden would see this as an opportunity for power and standing. My LE HN admired the audacity of Arl Howe even as he was prepared to torture him slowly and painfully for his assault. He took full advantage of the chaos and stayed to lead Ferelden with Alistair (choosing not to marry Anora because he saw Alistair as a simpering weakling he could control, and favoured rule from the shadows).

[Sylvius the Mad]

You don't even need that motivation.

I meant assume. We typically assume the PC's motives.

[Stronglav]

You make me wanna replay DK2

[batlin]

Because being punished for wanting to be a hero sucks? Because in the real world, being good and doing the right thing is a mixed bag, where sometimes you are actually rewarded, and only sometimes do you have to sacrifice? Because resisting temptation doesn't need to be a theme rammed down our throats 24/7?

 

Take your pick.

Whoa there, I never said that picking the good option should be punished. I said that the evil option should get you more stuff.

 

And yes, sure there should be some times when the good option will get you better loot. But such a reward shouldn't be known to the player before making the choice. If it were, the evil character would go with the good option instead of the evil option, and then the morality system is again a wasted effort.

 

 

Isn't that typically what we do with the PC's motives? That's certainly what I do.

Of course. But it would be nice if it were represented in some way within the game.

[In Exile]

I meant assume. We typically assume the PC's motives.

Right. I was unclear. I didn't mean to seem as if I was disagreeing. Rather I wanted to say that self preservation is just one possible motive. DAO was quite flexible in that regard.

[Amfortas]

I like playing lawful evil characters as far as the games allow me, which is usually not much to be honest. But I like the mwahaha evil of Kotor as well, because like it or not it was star wars and that's how it is, and I liked how it was handled in Jade Empire.

 

What those two games had in common is that they had no sequel that directly depended on their outcome. As long as bioware keeps making these games with choices that you can import to the next one, I doubt we're going to see more than one path to complete the game. I believe I have said this before, but I wish they'd go back to making standalone games.

[Fast Jimmy]

That's a thought that's crossed my mind too.

 

The whole import save thing has a lot of potential, but I'm still not sold on it being better.

 

I don't know. The Save Import feature isn't all THAT bad.