126 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

I don't really think that is what indoctrination is at all. Indoctrination is not telling you what to think, it is telling you how to think. It is bringing one mind's decision making process more in line with another's. This is why the Illusive Man can be indoctrinated, and still work at cross purposes to defeat the Reapers (example: stopping the Collector's in ME2). He is essentially becoming as ruthless as the Reapers in pursuit of his goal.

To me, this is part of what the Decision Chamber encounter is meant to show. Shepard has to come to terms with what AI are, and what the outcome with their conflicts with Organics will inevitably be. The Crucible is an example of the power that will arise in the conflict, a weapon capable of unfathomable destruction. The Geth are one example of the beginning of AI, and the Reapers are an example of how powerful and ruthless they can eventually be in pursuit of their goals. No conscience, no boundaries, no limits. They are live sentient power; our creations, life forms freed of our weaknesses, and they will destroy us.

To survive we must change. But we have the option to instead enact some temporary fix in Control or Destroy.

[Raice]

Also OP

 

I suggest posting IT stuff here

http://indoctrinatio.../f1-mass-effect

 

There is a user on there ( and here as well sometimes) called Swobyj. I think you and he/she would have a lot in common

 

...beware the honey badger tho...

 

 

Well, I am actually in the process of reviewing Leviathan DLC material.  I didn't have this DLC when I played through ME3.  I generally save additional content DLC for subsequent playthroughs, as I want the most vanilla experience as I can get my first play through.  I always figured that the vanilla content was self-sufficient.  I have a sneaky suspicion that EA kind of screwed us, here.

 

That being said, I have some new information to think on.  I never figured the DLC as "not canon".  I just never figured DLC would have extremely vital information to the main plot.  And if the Leviathan DLC isn't directly related to the main plot - I don't know what is.  Seriously... this shouldn't have been cut from the main game.  If what I am currently thinking is correct... it's just too important.  It's no wonder people had a lot of unanswered questions - like myself.

 

Still, I haven't given up on any possible theories just yet.  I just need time to sort this out.  Plus, I wouldn't say I am absolutely married to any theory.  They were just my thoughts after a fresh first playthrough.  I'm still just trying to figure this out, and those two theories were very "doable" in the absence of the Leviathan DLC content.  Now...

 

....

 

... variables have changed.

[cap and gown]

Leviathan strikes me as a big ole bandaid to try patch up the the logic problems of the endings. I don't think it was planned out before hand and got cut. Rather, it was just another way, besides the extended cut, of trying to fix the problems with the ending. Of course, I don't know when they started planning the DLC, whether before the release of ME3 or after. But the impression I got was that it was just more extended cut type material.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I don't believe Leviathan was originally planned DLC, but was one written to further explain the ending. Once the Extended Cut (EC) came out, there were even more questions about the reaper origins, and they set up Leviathan with the EC. Omega on the other hand was planned. I recently purchased Leviathan on the 360 for $5, so I'll be playing ME3 again to play that.

 

But first Borderlands the Pre-Prequel!

[SporkFu]

But first Borderlands the Pre-Prequel!

You'll be able to give me first impressions  ... I have to wait for it to come in the mail from amazon. it's kind of a bummer, because the pre-order bonus shift-codes are only good for seven days, and it usually takes a little longer than that for any amazon stuff that I order to arrive. 

[Kenshen]

Leviathan strikes me as a big ole bandaid to try patch up the the logic problems of the endings. I don't think it was planned out before hand and got cut. Rather, it was just another way, besides the extended cut, of trying to fix the problems with the ending. Of course, I don't know when they started planning the DLC, whether before the release of ME3 or after. But the impression I got was that it was just more extended cut type material.

 

I remember Chris (or another BW peep who posted here during the rage storm) talking about all the great DLC they had planned so there was some thought into DLC but what that was they never said.  Omega and Citadel were certainly planned but neither of those had a direct link to the main plot or had lines added in at the end if you played it so you are probably right about Leviathan being a band-aid.  Oh I just thought of one thing this DLC did give us a power we got in ME2 in Dominate so there might have been some prior planning I don't know.

[AlanC9]

You'll be able to give me first impressions  ... I have to wait for it to come in the mail from amazon. it's kind of a bummer, because the pre-order bonus shift-codes are only good for seven days, and it usually takes a little longer than that for any amazon stuff that I order to arrive.

This is exactly why I've given up on physical media.

[SporkFu]

This is exactly why I've given up on physical media.

In an ideal world there would be no monthly bandwidth limits, but sadly that is not the case. 

[Iakus]

I don't believe Leviathan was originally planned DLC, but was one written to further explain the ending. Once the Extended Cut (EC) came out, there were even more questions about the reaper origins, and they set up Leviathan with the EC. Omega on the other hand was planned. I recently purchased Leviathan on the 360 for $5, so I'll be playing ME3 again to play that.

 

But first Borderlands the Pre-Prequel!

 

It certainly explains the logic behind the endings:

 

"There was no mistake, it still serves its purpose!"

[AlanC9]

I remember Chris (or another BW peep who posted here during the rage storm) talking about all the great DLC they had planned so there was some thought into DLC but what that was they never said.  Omega and Citadel were certainly planned but neither of those had a direct link to the main plot or had lines added in at the end if you played it so you are probably right about Leviathan being a band-aid. 

It's pretty much the opposite of surprising that DLC would enter planning stages long before the game is released. The writers and level designers have finished most of their work on the main game long before it goes gold.No sense moving them onto DAI or whatever only to bring them back in a few weeks.

[AlanC9]

In an ideal world there would be no monthly bandwidth limits, but sadly that is not the case.

Yikes.

[SporkFu]

Yikes.

Yup.... ehh, it's not so bad. I've learned patience.... some patience, heh. 

[AlanC9]

Have you considered one of those soul-deadening office jobs?

[Raice]

Have you considered one of those soul-deadening office jobs?

 

How do you mean?

[SporkFu]

Have you considered one of those soul-deadening office jobs?

Not worth it to play a particular game on release day. 

[Farangbaa]

The Reapers might not be there to destroy life.  Maybe they are just there to harvest - that's why they're called Reapers.... to reap the harvest.  It could be either way.
 
My point is, Indoctrination is the process of Harvesting.  The lie is part of the Indoctrination.  It's not lying out of fear of being destroyed.  It's lying because it's purpose is to harvest life.  If they cannot harvest you - then they didn't fulfill their purpose.  And so then you must be disposed of somehow.  Except Shepard is still alive at the end of "Destroy the Reapers."  This choice was his ability to resist Indoctrination.  If you aren't Indoctrinated... then you aren't harvested.  So what happens then?  This is the point you aren't getting.
 
Indoctrination is when you are presented with ideals that you find repulsive in a pleasant way, and things you find are pleasant are presented to you as if they were repulsive.  It requires lies.  How exactly do you think Indoctrination actually works, lol?  It doesn't work without lies.

Fine and dandy, but it's still better off leaving Shepard to die on the spot.

That and Bioware notes are very explicit about trying to add indoctrination into the game, but had no idea how to do this gameplay wise... so they didn't.

Btw, following your train of thought, the only correct choice you have at the end is refuse.

[Ithurael]

Fine and dandy, but it's still better off leaving Shepard to die on the spot.

That and Bioware notes are very explicit about trying to add indoctrination into the game, but had no idea how to do this gameplay wise... so they didn't.

Btw, following your train of thought, the only correct choice you have at the end is refuse.

I love my version of Refuse IT.

It is the only ending that is the most abrupt (showing that the dream was ended)

It is the only ending where Shepard actually acts like shepard

It shows Shepard is still willing to destroy the reapers on the galaxy's own terms (cite the ME2 ending "I won't let fear compromise who I am", "I will stop the reapers without sacrificing the soul of our species")

It makes glowjob revel his 'true' nature

At the end, everyone in this cycle still dies and the next cycle (thanks to your choices and the building of the time capsul) save the day.

It is dark, brilliant, and absolutly brutal. There is no hope in it at all, there is no great climax, and it echos the ethos of the reapers being some inevitable force that can't be destroyed. I. Love. Refuse IT.

[Ithurael]

edit: double post

[angol fear]

Beings of light isn't what you wrote :

 

 

Mass Effect 1

Klencory is a rock and ice planet with an atmosphere composed of chlorine and argon. The frozen surface is mainly composed of potassium with deposits of iron.

Klencory is famously claimed by the eccentric volus billionaire Kumun Shol. He claims that a vision of a higher being told him to seek on Klencory the "lost crypts of beings of light." These entities were supposedly created at the dawn of time to protect organic life from synthetic "machine devils."

Shol has been excavating on Klencory's toxic surface for two decades, at great expense. No government has valued the world enough to evict his small army of mercenaries.

 

Mass Effect 3

Klencory is a rock and ice planet with an atmosphere composed of chlorine and argon. The frozen surface is mainly composed of potassium with deposits of iron.

Klencory is famously claimed by the eccentric volus billionaire Kumun Shol. His once-ridiculed visions of "beings of light" protecting organic life from synthetic "machine devils" don't seem quite so far-fetched now. His private army of mercenaries are well-established on the planet, waiting for husks to come knocking in on their door. In all likelihood, they will be obliterated by the molten metal of a Reaper orbital bombardment, on its way to somewhere important.

[Raice]

Beings of light isn't what you wrote :

 

 

Mass Effect 1

Klencory is a rock and ice planet with an atmosphere composed of chlorine and argon. The frozen surface is mainly composed of potassium with deposits of iron.

Klencory is famously claimed by the eccentric volus billionaire Kumun Shol. He claims that a vision of a higher being told him to seek on Klencory the "lost crypts of beings of light." These entities were supposedly created at the dawn of time to protect organic life from synthetic "machine devils."

Shol has been excavating on Klencory's toxic surface for two decades, at great expense. No government has valued the world enough to evict his small army of mercenaries.

 

Mass Effect 3

Klencory is a rock and ice planet with an atmosphere composed of chlorine and argon. The frozen surface is mainly composed of potassium with deposits of iron.

Klencory is famously claimed by the eccentric volus billionaire Kumun Shol. His once-ridiculed visions of "beings of light" protecting organic life from synthetic "machine devils" don't seem quite so far-fetched now. His private army of mercenaries are well-established on the planet, waiting for husks to come knocking in on their door. In all likelihood, they will be obliterated by the molten metal of a Reaper orbital bombardment, on its way to somewhere important.

 

I am in the process of updating everything.  I told you I had just completed the game, and after having done some more research and having this dialogue in this thread, I have a much better perspective on things.  I will update my original post later today after I get it all worked out on paper.

 

I didn't intentionally mislead anyone on what was going on with the Beings of Light.  I was simply stating things that at the time were the best approximation of what I was understanding.  My understanding was off on a lot of things, because it was all flooding my brain before I had time to settle on it.  I said, I just needed somewhere to put my thoughts down in my original post.

 

I have reviewed the Leviathan DLC, I have reviewed more thoroughly the "official" Indoctrination Theory that had been proposed years ago.  And I have reviewed more thoroughly the aspects of the "Beings of Light" and their corresponding theory.

 

Again, I will update my original post.  Surprisingly, all of this still might fit together.  I'll show you how, later.

[Ithurael]

I think a healthy train of thought is to make things fit together that actually do fit together. Don't make things fit together because you want them to fit together...the end result of that train of thinking can be...unfortunate.

[Farangbaa]

I love my version of Refuse IT.

It is the only ending that is the most abrupt (showing that the dream was ended)

It is the only ending where Shepard actually acts like shepard

It shows Shepard is still willing to destroy the reapers on the galaxy's own terms (cite the ME2 ending "I won't let fear compromise who I am", "I will stop the reapers without sacrificing the soul of our species")

It makes glowjob revel his 'true' nature

At the end, everyone in this cycle still dies and the next cycle (thanks to your choices and the building of the time capsul) save the day.

It is dark, brilliant, and absolutly brutal. There is no hope in it at all, there is no great climax, and it echos the ethos of the reapers being some inevitable force that can't be destroyed. I. Love. Refuse IT.

'I won't let fear compromise who I am' is without a single doubt the worst line of the series.

[Ithurael]

'I won't let fear compromise who I am' is without a single doubt the worst line of the series.

 

While I do respect your opinion....there are sooooooo many worse lines man. That line is - at best - corney and on par with ME2

 

What about:

"This isn't about strategy or tactics"

"I was born in London" (*looks to the side awkwardly)

"Ah yes. Reapers"

"There's still one outstanding issue. Commander Shepard's vision. It may have been triggered by the beacon"

"How bad is it?" Shepard asks Thane after he's stabbed by Kai Leng

"I thought Asari needed other species to reproduce."

 

It is true no story or dialog can be perfect at all times. And it is fun to reminice every now and again. I usually look to this thread for it

http://forum.bioware...hl= worst line

[Obadiah]

On the description of the beings of light, and the Catalyst's resemblance to the description and function. There are a few options:
1) Kumun Shol has seen a vision from an artifact from a previous cycle that knows of the Catalyst
2) Kumun Shol has seen a vision from a Reaper artifact similar to the one Dr. Kenson found in Arrival
3) Kumun Shol is indoctrinated through some other means and has seen the Catalyst
4) Kumun Shol has been in contact with Leviathan through the globe artifacts scattered across the galaxy
5) Kumun Shol has been in contact with some other heretofore unknown entity, and was given limited knowledge of the Reapers (my favorite)

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I remember Chris (or another BW peep who posted here during the rage storm) talking about all the great DLC they had planned so there was some thought into DLC but what that was they never said.  Omega and Citadel were certainly planned but neither of those had a direct link to the main plot or had lines added in at the end if you played it so you are probably right about Leviathan being a band-aid.  Oh I just thought of one thing this DLC did give us a power we got in ME2 in Dominate so there might have been some prior planning I don't know.

 

Citadel DLC was originally supposed to be something involving Admiral Xen. There was a lot of dialogue on the original game disks. That was planned. It wasn't the Citadel DLC that we got. Xen somehow survived if you killed the Geth. If you made peace, Xen was using geth platforms to track AI nodes on the Citadel. You were clearing her for access through the Spectre Terminal for a while, then she eventually was found to be performing "illegal AI research" under the "Good Is Dumb" trope because what she was doing would have located the Intelligence and ruined Mac Walter's Red, Green and Blue ending had she succeeded. You were given a choice of killing her or sending her off to work on the Crucible. She was the most intelligent character in the story and thus that part of the story had to end in failure because of reasons.

 

So that one + Omega DLC and maybe one other that wasn't written because of having screwed up the original ending so bad they had to spend time writing the Extended Cut and Leviathan to plug a plot hole they created in the Extended Cut, but Leviathan creates yet another plot hole... just don't think about this stuff. They shipped a story full of plot holes. It had its "feelz" moments, but aside from them there were ass pulls and plot holes all over the place. The EC added more.