126 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

On the description of the beings of light, and the Catalyst's resemblance to the description and function. There are a few options:
1) Kumun Shol has seen a vision from an artifact from a previous cycle that knows of the Catalyst
2) Kumun Shol has seen a vision from a Reaper artifact similar to the one Dr. Kenson found in Arrival
3) Kumun Shol is indoctrinated through some other means and has seen the Catalyst
4) Kumun Shol has been in contact with Leviathan through the globe artifacts scattered across the galaxy
5) Kumun Shol has been in contact with some other heretofore unknown entity, and was given limited knowledge of the Reapers (my favorite)

 

 

You mean the careful "we don't leave any traces of our existence" Reapers left another GoPro camera from a past raver thrown after another harvest?

 

I like the last one best, too.

[Raice]

Why is it that people rebel against the idea that ME's story is poorly written?

 

I would like to answer this.

 

I am not rebelling against anything, least not that it was just bad writing.  That is a possibility.  But I am a fan of the series.  I love the characters.  The story is at least somewhat interesting, as it hits all the right emotional beats, and despite some relatively deep holes in the major plot, it makes lots of sense in the smaller sub-plots.  To me... it's deserving of a closer examination.  I have to do the work myself, because that's how I know I understand something.  If I have tried every which way I can to understand something, and find that there is no understanding to be had - then I can be okay with the conclusion that it is bad writing.

 

Maybe I will come to the conclusion after its all said and done that it's just poor writing.  That might happen.  But I'm not going to take your word for it... just because you assert it, just like I don't take anyone's word on anything without examining it for myself first.

 

I was hoping to have a dialogue with people about what thoughts I had regarding the game.  It's been good so far.  Lots of things have been brought to my attention, and I am in the process of sorting through it.  I don't have to just accept your conclusion simply because you are tired of hearing about it or talking about it.

[Reorte]

Why is it that people rebel against the idea that ME's story is poorly written?

Although that gets an immediate "Like" even a badly written story can spawn interesting ideas and discussion.

[JasonShepard]

On the description of the beings of light, and the Catalyst's resemblance to the description and function. There are a few options:
1) Kumun Shol has seen a vision from an artifact from a previous cycle that knows of the Catalyst
2) Kumun Shol has seen a vision from a Reaper artifact similar to the one Dr. Kenson found in Arrival
3) Kumun Shol is indoctrinated through some other means and has seen the Catalyst
4) Kumun Shol has been in contact with Leviathan through the globe artifacts scattered across the galaxy
5) Kumun Shol has been in contact with some other heretofore unknown entity, and was given limited knowledge of the Reapers (my favorite)

 

You missed an option:

 

6) Kumun Shol dreamt the whole thing up, and just happened to be partly right. Monkeys, typewriters and Shakespeare, that sort of thing.

 

... Not that I'm calling a Volus a monkey...

[cap and gown]

Although that gets an immediate "Like" even a badly written story can spawn interesting ideas and discussion.

 

Hey, I love the series. There are lots of great moments in it. Many of the sub-plots are very good. And maybe the endings can stimulate some good thinking. But it seems clear that the problem with ME from the start was the writer had no idea about what motivated the Reapers. He just punted on that whole thing. Either he was going for a Cthulu idea, Cthulu being a motiveless, malevolent force without explanation, or he just figured he could come up with something later if the game spawned any sequels. Either way, not understanding the nature of the villain was the original sin of the entire series.

 

 

[Raice]

I updated my original post with some new material and thoughts.  Give it a look-see.

[NoRush20]

I only read the OP, but I had the same impression as you regarding the ending with Synthesis. I didn't like that ending, even though I chose it the first time I played it. 

 

The second time, after learning all about the Indoctrination Theory and hearing everyone's reasoning on which endings are best, I chose Destroy and got the "Shepard Lives" ending. Everything fit so much better. The scene where Liara doesn't put your name on the wall cause she knows your alive was touching to me in a similar way as her Final Gift scene. During Hacket's speech, the Citadel is shown to be reconstructed, and life seems to be back to normal. 

 

The Destroy ending gave me peace, whereas Synthesis left me feeling that I had made the wrong choice. You may want to give that a try.

 

Regarding the Catalyst - its purpose was never to destroy all organic life, nor to preserve existing organic life by destroying synthetics. If you pay attention to what it says, its idea is to prevent other synthetics from "going rogue" and killing ALL organic life in the galaxy, completely exterminating it. Its only goal is to keep organics from hurting themselves by harvesting them before they create an AI worse than the reapers.

 

In other words, the reapers are bad AI, but they have a cap that prevents them from killing off organics completely - they allow some life to continue. Their purpose is to prevent the rise of synthetics that will kill without that cap, and therefore save organics from their own creations. It makes sense from the perspective of an unfeeling AI, whereas we put a lot of emotion into the idea of synthetics killing civilizations off every 50,000 years. That's why the Reapers always talk about being our "salvation through destruction". The Catalyst see us as children who, at roughly every 50,000 years, are about to step into an oncoming train's path. It sees the Reapers as the guardian trying to save that child. Its reasoning is, in a way, logical; however, its solution is completely unethical.

 

With this in mind, I don't have a problem with ME3's ending. I actually kind of like it. And this is how I sum up the three choices:

 

1.) If I choose Destroy, I'm doing so knowing that Shepard just stopped a war between the Geth and the Quarians, and knowing that my Shepard's relationship with Legion and EDI prove that the Catalyst's assumption that synthetics will always kill organics is wrong. This cycle proved it wrong, and by wiping out the Reapers, the Geth and EDI together, I'm starting over with a clean slate with which I can prove the Catalyst is wrong.

 

2.) If I choose Synthesis, I am stating that the Catalyst is right, that there will always be that conflict. By combining organic and synthetic life, I am going to prevent it.

 

3.) If I choose Control, it is with a similar mindset of Destroy. However, the ending is unknown. On one hand, the Geth and Edi are preserved, which makes Shepard's personal sacrifice worth it. However, we do not know if Shepard will eventually lose control, or be swayed to the opinion of the Catalyst, and unleash the Reapers on the galaxy once again.

 

For me, Destroy satisfied me most. Hope this helps you (and others) see the endings with a different perspective.

[Vazgen]

I updated my original post with some new material and thoughts.  Give it a look-see.

Why does Harbinger create Catalyst? What's his gain? And why did he turn on Leviathans?

 

Have you considered a possibility that the whole galaxy is just a test lab for the Catalyst? Imagine an intelligence tasked with one thing - stop the organics from creating synthetics. It starts to collect data, first step - the lesser species during Leviathan time. They die out over and over again by their own creations and the Catalyst decides to save their knowledge to add to his data banks (trying to figure out the reasons). It is done for quite a few times and quite a few Reapers are created, with Harbinger being the first. Then it figures out that maybe the Leviathans are the problem. They too get harvested with already created Reapers. The organics continue creating synthetics. Then it creates mass relays and Citadel to impose order on the chaotic nature of organic life, allowing for more controlled experiments. Every cycle, the races are harvested and data is added to the Catalyst.

[Raice]

I only read the OP, but I had the same impression as you regarding the ending with Synthesis. I didn't like that ending, even though I chose it the first time I played it. 

 

The second time, after learning all about the Indoctrination Theory and hearing everyone's reasoning on which endings are best, I chose Destroy and got the "Shepard Lives" ending. Everything fit so much better. The scene where Liara doesn't put your name on the wall cause she knows your alive was touching to me in a similar way as her Final Gift scene. During Hacket's speech, the Citadel is shown to be reconstructed, and life seems to be back to normal. 

 

The Destroy ending gave me peace, whereas Synthesis left me feeling that I had made the wrong choice. You may want to give that a try.

 

Regarding the Catalyst - its purpose was never to destroy all organic life, nor to preserve existing organic life by destroying synthetics. If you pay attention to what it says, its idea is to prevent other synthetics from "going rogue" and killing ALL organic life in the galaxy, completely exterminating it. Its only goal is to keep organics from hurting themselves by harvesting them before they create an AI worse than the reapers.

 

In other words, the reapers are bad AI, but they have a cap that prevents them from killing off organics completely - they allow some life to continue. Their purpose is to prevent the rise of synthetics that will kill without that cap, and therefore save organics from their own creations. It makes sense from the perspective of an unfeeling AI, whereas we put a lot of emotion into the idea of synthetics killing civilizations off every 50,000 years. That's why the Reapers always talk about being our "salvation through destruction". The Catalyst see us as children who, at roughly every 50,000 years, are about to step into an oncoming train's path. It sees the Reapers as the guardian trying to save that child. Its reasoning is, in a way, logical; however, its solution is completely unethical.

 

With this in mind, I don't have a problem with ME3's ending. I actually kind of like it. And this is how I sum up the three choices:

 

1.) If I choose Destroy, I'm doing so knowing that Shepard just stopped a war between the Geth and the Quarians, and knowing that my Shepard's relationship with Legion and EDI prove that the Catalyst's assumption that synthetics will always kill organics is wrong. This cycle proved it wrong, and by wiping out the Reapers, the Geth and EDI together, I'm starting over with a clean slate with which I can prove the Catalyst is wrong.

 

2.) If I choose Synthesis, I am stating that the Catalyst is right, that there will always be that conflict. By combining organic and synthetic life, I am going to prevent it.

 

3.) If I choose Control, it is with a similar mindset of Destroy. However, the ending is unknown. On one hand, the Geth and Edi are preserved, which makes Shepard's personal sacrifice worth it. However, we do not know if Shepard will eventually lose control, or be swayed to the opinion of the Catalyst, and unleash the Reapers on the galaxy once again.

 

For me, Destroy satisfied me most. Hope this helps you (and others) see the endings with a different perspective.

 

I understand what Shepard is told is the reason for the Reapers and Catalyst.  I understand about the chaos and the rise of synthetics that cannot be stopped.  I'm talking about how that is possibly a lie created by the Leviathans who still consider themselves a master race that require tribute.

[SporkFu]

I'm sorry, but... Harbinger created the catalyst?  Huh?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

There is another yet theory to consider for the reapers and what they do....

 

You see, ground up organic matter is dead, right? They grind up living and dead organics to make a goop that goes inside a massive thing that resembles the shape of the race they harvested. When it is full, they seal it. They put an VI inside that, too, and they put that inside the giant ship. That is what controls the ship. The VI receives its marching orders from the Catalyst. "I control the reapers. They are my solution."

 

"No, we harvest advanced organic civilizations and preserve them in reaper form, leaving the younger ones alone just as we left your species alone the last time we were through."

 

Now if one thinks about this, what do we preserve here on earth?

 

 

Is it alive? No. It is fruit, harvested and preserved. This gives rise to Marmalade Theory.

 

There is only the harvest.

[Raice]

I'm sorry, but... Harbinger created the catalyst?  Huh?

 

I'll get to it.  I haven't written it all on the page yet.

[SporkFu]

There is another yet theory to consider for the reapers and what they do....

 

You see, ground up organic matter is dead, right? They grind up living and dead organics to make a goop that goes inside a massive thing that resembles the shape of the race they harvested. When it is full, they seal it. They put an VI inside that, too, and they put that inside the giant ship. That is what controls the ship. The VI receives its marching orders from the Catalyst. "I control the reapers. They are my solution."

 

"No, we harvest advanced organic civilizations and preserve them in reaper form, leaving the younger ones alone just as we left your species alone the last time we were through."

 

Now if one thinks about this, what do we preserve here on earth?

 

 

Is it alive? No. It is fruit, harvested and preserved. This gives rise to Marmalade Theory.

 

There is only the harvest.

Anderson: Shepard.... Shepard.

shep *groans*: Anderson. You up here too?

Anderson: I followed you up, but we didn't come out in the same place, at least I don't think we did. What's your surrounding look like? 

shep *Groans. Gets to her feet.*

Anderson: You okay?

shep: I feel like death, but I'm moving. It's dark. There's ...human remains scattered.

Anderson: Sounds familiar. I'm in a dark hallway. Reminds me of your description of the collector base.

shep: Unh. Makes sense. 

Anderson: You think they're making a reaper in here?

shep: Sure. they round them up on Earth, then send the people up here to be processed.

Anderson: Goddamn abomination. I'm gonna keep moving. The sooner we blow these b*****ds back to hell the better. The tubes don't go on forever, but... where the hell are we?

shep: Yeah... doesn't look like any part of the Citadel I've been to.

Anderson: Shepard, I... I found a lightswitch. Wait.

shep: Anderson?

Anderson: Shepard...

shep: What? What do you see?

Anderson: Shelves. Lots of them. As far as I can see. And... My God.

shep: Don't keep me in suspense, old man. I'm bleeding out, here. 

Anderson: Millions of jars. Maybe billions. Jars of... marmalade.

[cap and gown]

 

Anderson: Shepard.... Shepard.

shep *groans*: Anderson. You up here too?

Anderson: I followed you up, but we didn't come out in the same place, at least I don't think we did. What's your surrounding look like? 

shep *Groans. Gets to her feet.*

Anderson: You okay?

shep: I feel like death, but I'm moving. It's dark. There's ...human remains scattered.

Anderson: Sounds familiar. I'm in a dark hallway. Reminds me of your description of the collector base.

shep: Unh. Makes sense. 

Anderson: You think they're making a reaper in here?

shep: Sure. they round them up on Earth, then send the people up here to be processed.

Anderson: Goddamn abomination. I'm gonna keep moving. The sooner we blow these b*****ds back to hell the better. The tubes don't go on forever, but... where the hell are we?

shep: Yeah... doesn't look like any part of the Citadel I've been to.

Anderson: Shepard, I... I found a lightswitch. Wait.

shep: Anderson?

Anderson: Shepard...

shep: What? What do you see?

Anderson: Shelves. Lots of them. As far as I can see. And... My God.

shep: Don't keep me in suspense, old man. I'm bleeding out, here. 

Anderson: Millions of jars. Maybe billions. Jars of... marmalade.

 

 

What? No Soylent Green reference?

[NoRush20]

I understand what Shepard is told is the reason for the Reapers and Catalyst.  I understand about the chaos and the rise of synthetics that cannot be stopped.  I'm talking about how that is possibly a lie created by the Leviathans who still consider themselves a master race that require tribute.

Okay, so now I've read the updated part of the OP, and it's an interesting idea. That the Crucible is the tribute that the Leviathan were seeking this entire time and (obviously) Synthesis is the ultimate evolution that the Apex race, Leviathan, were seeking. What I don't understand here is, why then does the Crucible allow for three choices, two of which would not benefit the Leviathan at all.

 

If Destroy is chosen, the races of the galaxy now know that the Leviathan exist - and, knowing their nature, the Leviathan will surely be hunted down.

If Control is chosen, the Leviathan now have to worry about the Reapers being in control of someone who knows where they are and what they are capable of. The Leviathan will be hunted down and destroyed by the Reapers, and all those years of hiding go to waste.

 

Unless, of course, you consider that the Crucible has been altered from its original design, by a thrall race (some ancient race, for fun lets call them the Keepers) who sought to rebel against the Leviathan. Still, that would make me think that Leviathan isn't doing a very good job of spying on the creation of the tribute which they so desperately seek.

 

That Harbinger creates the Catalyst instead of the the other way around could make some sense. After all, my first question when I learned about this whole thing was "if the Reapers didn't exist until after the Leviathan were wiped out, what destroyed the Leviathan?" It seemed pretty weird to me that, without Reapers, the Catalyst could pull that off. The reason the Reapers are so successful is because of how technologically advanced their hardware is. They're practically impervious to enemy fire, and have lasers that can destroy a Dreadnought in a single shot. And we saw what Leviathan can do to a single Reaper - it can be overloaded with a reverse-indoctrination technique of some kind.

 

My best guess is, going along with what you're saying, an army of Reapers were created first by the Leviathan (to more directly control the Thrall races), and then the Catalyst was created later. It's still possible, however, that Harbinger could be "the first Reaper" that was created by the Catalyst after the destruction of the Leviathan took place, and that other, lesser Reapers were created beforehand. But maybe not. The problem here is, we have no information to go off of

 

I'll be interested to see what else you add to this, cool theory for sure. +1

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

Anderson: Shepard.... Shepard.

shep *groans*: Anderson. You up here too?

Anderson: I followed you up, but we didn't come out in the same place, at least I don't think we did. What's your surrounding look like? 

shep *Groans. Gets to her feet.*

Anderson: You okay?

shep: I feel like death, but I'm moving. It's dark. There's ...human remains scattered.

Anderson: Sounds familiar. I'm in a dark hallway. Reminds me of your description of the collector base.

shep: Unh. Makes sense. 

Anderson: You think they're making a reaper in here?

shep: Sure. they round them up on Earth, then send the people up here to be processed.

Anderson: Goddamn abomination. I'm gonna keep moving. The sooner we blow these b*****ds back to hell the better. The tubes don't go on forever, but... where the hell are we?

shep: Yeah... doesn't look like any part of the Citadel I've been to.

Anderson: Shepard, I... I found a lightswitch. Wait.

shep: Anderson?

Anderson: Shepard...

shep: What? What do you see?

Anderson: Shelves. Lots of them. As far as I can see. And... My God.

shep: Don't keep me in suspense, old man. I'm bleeding out, here. 

Anderson: Millions of jars. Maybe billions. Jars of... marmalade.

 

 

Only Harbinger Farms can bring to your home, the freshest, most authentic, most organic jelly made from the most rudimentary creatures of flesh and bone. Our organics are only picked from the most beautiful and bountiful parts of the Milky Way valley and are guaranteed to be 100% tentacle picked. We use a secret method to make our jelly, growing the crop only along the most tasteful paths we desire. So, next time you're in the market, assume control of the best jelly in the universe. Harbinger's Own, Organic Jelly.

 

Buy our seasonal flavors of Asari Blueberry and Turian Nuget.

[Farangbaa]

What destroyed the Leviathan?

How about pure synthetic 'Reapers'? (you know, what the Catalyst calls it's pawns).

The Leviathan wouldn't be able to control these, they can't control synthetics.

But my biggest gripe with all this is that instead of just accepting everything on face value, you guys would rather be lied to for an entire game (or 3 whole games) and finish the trilogy without an ending whatsoever.

[SporkFu]

What? No Soylent Green reference?

Anderson: Shepard, I... I found a lightswitch. Wait.

shep: Anderson?

Anderson: Shepard...

shep: What? What do you see?

Anderson: Shelves. Lots of them. As far as I can see. And... My God.

shep: Don't keep me in suspense, old man. I'm bleeding out, here. 

Anderson: Millions of jars. Maybe billions. Jars of... marmalade.

 

later, as shep catches up to Anderson...

 

shep: What do you mean marmalade? 

Anderson: Look for yourself, Shepard.

TIM: Admiral. 

Anderson: Illusive Man! What are you doing here?

TIM: The two of you, so self-righteous. But I've got proof. They need proof. *sighs*

shep: What the hell are you talking about? 

TIM: I've seen it. I've seen it happening!

Anderson: Listen to yourself. You're indoctrinated.

TIM: Shepard. You've gotta tell people. 

shep: Tell them what?

TIM: Earth is dying. Planets all dying... heh.

Anderson: Bullsh*t. I don't believe it. 

TIM: It's people. The marmalade is made out of people. They're making marmalade out of people. Next they'll be breeding us like cattle. For marmalade! You gotta tell them. 

shep: I promise, TIM, I promise. I'll tell the Alliance.

TIM: No! NO! Tell everybody. Listen to me, Shepard! You've gotta tell 'em! Marmalade is people!! 

[von uber]

Regards Leviathan, i really like the structure, gameplay, cinematics, setting and drama of that DLC.

the Mahavid is really well done, as is that the abandoned spaceship in the water. really good evoctaive environments with a sense of mystery, very ME1 ish.

[Raice]

What destroyed the Leviathan?

How about pure synthetic 'Reapers'? (you know, what the Catalyst calls it's pawns).

The Leviathan wouldn't be able to control these, they can't control synthetics.

But my biggest gripe with all this is that instead of just accepting everything on face value, you guys would rather be lied to for an entire game (or 3 whole games) and finish the trilogy without an ending whatsoever.

 

Relax.  All of this is just for fun - there's no sense in taking offense to our desire to at least make an interesting story out of the schlop of an ending we were given.  If I had been satisfied with what I received, I wouldn't have the desire to make something more interesting of it.

[Ithurael]

Hey, I love the series. There are lots of great moments in it. Many of the sub-plots are very good. And maybe the endings can stimulate some good thinking. But it seems clear that the problem with ME from the start was the writer had no idea about what motivated the Reapers. He just punted on that whole thing. Either he was going for a Cthulu idea, Cthulu being a motiveless, malevolent force without explanation, or he just figured he could come up with something later if the game spawned any sequels. Either way, not understanding the nature of the villain was the original sin of the entire series.

 

 

 

I can't like your post enough!!!!!! And the EC references were perfect!

 

I know this is totally Off Topic but by far, my favorite, creepy, and best places narrative (and even a gameplay villain to an extent) was the Dollmaker from Alice:Madness Returns...Everything that lead up to that battle and the battle itself truly truly made me very uncomfortable...and my god. It wasn't the toughest bossfight or the most mechanically challenging but even the bossfight was disturbing.

 

Back on topic. I think that Bio really did have a tough challenge on their hands with the reapers. I guess that is why they left the reapers in the background for the majority of the game and put TIM and Cerberus as the main antagonists.

[Ithurael]

What destroyed the Leviathan?

How about pure synthetic 'Reapers'? (you know, what the Catalyst calls it's pawns).

The Leviathan wouldn't be able to control these, they can't control synthetics.

But my biggest gripe with all this is that instead of just accepting everything on face value, you guys would rather be lied to for an entire game (or 3 whole games) and finish the trilogy without an ending whatsoever.

 

If it helps people enjoy the game more what does it really matter?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

We poke fun of the ending now.

[Ithurael]

We poke fun of the ending now.

 

 

I always thought we just played the game in my sig

[ImaginaryMatter]

I always thought we just played the game in my sig

 

I stopped playing that game. There was a particular rousing debate going on one day and the next thing I knew I was waking up in a Tijuana prison.