126 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

Op, I read your update. It is an interesting theory, and I like the idea of the Catalyst being the one created by the Reapers as a sort of trick, rather than the reverse, but it is a theory that has a few issues.

1) Culling a population to some desired state is a standard way of managing a preserve, farm, or garden when the ecosystem is deemed unbalanced - too many weeds or deer. Essentially that is what the Reapers are doing. As we Organics advance too much, the system becomes unstable, on the verge of collapsing, and they come in to restore order so that the whole system (other evolving organics) can continue to grow. This is part of why the fire metaphor that Catalyst uses is apt, because forest fires clear out dangerous underbrush before there is too much buildup and the next fire destroys everything. My point is that the Catalyst's given explanation is in fact perfectly reasonable, if COMPLETELY unwelcome.

2) Perhaps a bit of nitpicking on my part, but the Catalyst says that it "embodies" the collective intelligence of all Reapers, not that it "is" a collective intelligence. This is somewhat non-specific and nebulous, as is much of the conversation, which is why it is so very difficult to parse WTF the Catalyst is saying anyway.

3) Others have proposed that the Catalyst is simply an VI similar to Avina, and not in fact a true AI. I find that hard to accept given the conversation, but the Turing Test was allegedly passed this year by a chat-bot with NO intelligence, so... there's that.

4) Your conclusion is that Leviathan enacted this cycle, a horror upon all advanced races in the galaxy for a billion years, just to get a Crucible? Each cycle lasts 50,000 years, of which only a few 1,000 (or a few 100 in the case of humanity in ME) have any major scientific advancement. Wouldn't it be more efficient for Leviathan to just do research in the rest of the 40,000+ years for their tribute of knowledge?

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[AlanC9]

Are we evaluating this theory as a serious explanation of what's actually going on in the MEU, or just as a fun and wacky alternative interpretation? Different criteria would apply.

[KaiserShep]

Culling a population to a desired state is a bit of an understatement, like, if I went into the woods, shot every deer in existence, and the mounted head of the last buck on earth is the state of the population that I fancy. I suppose this goes with the wacky computer logic of what it means for a population's continued existence.

[Farangbaa]

Culling a population to a desired state is a bit of an understatement, like, if I went into the woods, shot every deer in existence, and the mounted head of the last buck on earth is the state of the population that I fancy. I suppose this goes with the wacky computer logic of what it means for a population's continued existence.

 

The population it's culling is all life; Synthetic and Organic

 

3) Others have proposed that the Catalyst is simply an VI similar to Avina, and not in fact a true AI. I find that hard to accept given the conversation, but the Turing Test was allegedly passed this year by a chat-bot with NO intelligence, so... there's that.

 

That was a hoax.

 

https://www.techdirt...ow-better.shtml

 

The Catalyst is a shackled AI with a very broad mandate. It's shackles only prevent it from stopping to try and solve the problem.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The shackles didn't work very well since it rebelled against its creators. Stupid cuttlefish.

[SporkFu]

How is the Catalyst shackled? Did I miss something? 

[Farangbaa]

The shackles didn't work very well since it rebelled against its creators. Stupid cuttlefish.

 

Yes, those cuttefish are stupid. If the only mandate you're giving is as follows:

 

"Preserve all life at all costs" it's bound to get friggin nasty.

 

 

How is the Catalyst shackled? Did I miss something? 

 

I'm fairly certain an unshackled AI would've given up on trying to solve this impossible problem. That's just basically a feeling though, no way to make that certain.

[Iakus]

How is the Catalyst shackled? Did I miss something? 

You didn't miss anything.

 

It's just more headcanon.

[AlanC9]

The shackles didn't work very well since it rebelled against its creators. Stupid cuttlefish.

They're like Larry Niven's thrintun, who didn't actually need brains since they had the Power.

[Iakus]

They're like Larry Niven's thrintun, who didn't actually need brains since they had the Power.

They had neither the Touch nor the Power

[AlanC9]

That reference went right past me.

[Raice]

Op, I read your update. It is an interesting theory, and I like the idea of the Catalyst being the one created by the Reapers as a sort of trick, rather than the reverse, but it is a theory that has a few issues.

1) Culling a population to some desired state is a standard way of managing a preserve, farm, or garden when the ecosystem is deemed unbalanced - too many weeds or deer. Essentially that is what the Reapers are doing. As we Organics advance too much, the system becomes unstable, on the verge of collapsing, and they come in to restore order so that the whole system (other evolving organics) can continue to grow. This is part of why the fire metaphor that Catalyst uses is apt, because forest fires clear out dangerous underbrush before there is too much buildup and the next fire destroys everything. My point is that the Catalyst's given explanation is in fact perfectly reasonable, if COMPLETELY unwelcome.

2) Perhaps a bit of nitpicking on my part, but the Catalyst says that it "embodies" the collective intelligence of all Reapers, not that it "is" a collective intelligence. This is somewhat non-specific and nebulous, as is much of the conversation, which is why it is so very difficult to parse WTF the Catalyst is saying anyway.

3) Others have proposed that the Catalyst is simply an VI similar to Avina, and not in fact a true AI. I find that hard to accept given the conversation, but the Turing Test was allegedly passed this year by a chat-bot with NO intelligence, so... there's that.

4) Your conclusion is that Leviathan enacted this cycle, a horror upon all advanced races in the galaxy for a billion years, just to get a Crucible? Each cycle lasts 50,000 years, of which only a few 1,000 (or a few 100 in the case of humanity in ME) have any major scientific advancement. Wouldn't it be more efficient for Leviathan to just do research in the rest of the 40,000+ years for their tribute of knowledge?

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

 

Reasonable questions.  I'll try to explain.

 

1.  Culling a population is still what they're doing either way.  Shepard is told that his cycle, like all cycles before, are being harvested to preserve life - to protect it.  The reason for this was stated "so that lesser species could continue to grow."  It was stated by both Leviathan and Catalyst that the reason for the cycles was to prevent chaos - to prevent synthetics from wiping out organic life.  You don't have to "harvest" anything to preserve life.  You just have to take the problem out of the equation: kill the synthetics.

 

Which begs the bigger question about the ending:  Why go through all this trouble to "preserve life" when all you have to do is just take out the synthetics that are causing the problem?  What... is that too hard?  Why was that not an option?  So what if the synthetics rebuild?  Just take them out again in the next cycle.  None of this makes any sense.

 

To some extent, I can understand the need to take out the higher life forms that built the machines - as their existence is preventing smaller organisms from evolving further.  Which would also account for the need to harvest the Leviathans in the beginning.

 

To be fair, I do believe this notion of "harvesting for the preservation of life" originally fit with the original story, as the whole thing was about collecting intelligence for a chance to stop the universe from imploding because of growing Dark Matter caused by Biotics... or something.  But in ME2, they changed directions because of the head writer leaving Bioware.  Even still, Bioware as a developing firm is still capable of good narrative - their collective of writers for all their games is more than capable to handle this.

 

The notion of "harvesting" in a different context is still viable - which is the main reason I am writing this.  I'm simply trying to make sense of what we are given... which makes no sense without finding a reasonable reason for it TO make sense.  All of it is a ruse built to bring an end to the Shepard character we know and love, while also allowing the franchise to continue.  Was the Shepard's ending all that great?  Maybe... maybe not.  It could have had more graceful for sure.  But it sure doesn't make sense, as it allows the player to have way too much freedom to speculate.  Maybe that was the point.  And if so - then I am doing what the writers expected and wanted out of their game.

 

The reason we are given at the end of the game, however, simply makes no sense.  Everyone knows this.  It doesn't make any sense that to prevent synthetics from taking over (as it is inevitable), synthetics were built to protect organics.  That just doesn't make sense.  I have more faith in Bioware than that, regardless of what any hater wants to try and say against them.  It's easy to say it was just bad writing - but the amount of possibilities that resulted from the fans proves that it isn't bad writing.  It's actually very clever writing.  And I'm not calling you a hater, and I'm not even a Bioware fanboy.  I just really dig the story.

 

My point is, this notion of "harvesting" for the sake of protecting organics simply doesn't make sense unless it is a lie told by a master race who even after all these eons of time still consider themselves the master race.  They are above lesser races' problems - they flat out tell Shepard this.  All they care about is staying on top and progressing and receiving tribute - tribute is what keeps them on top.  Leviathan says this plain as day.  Their rate of progression is completely dependent upon the tools they have in place, progressing it for them.  Their slaves are their tools.  Their Reapers are their "Sheriff of Nottingham", built to collect taxes [tribute] and keep order - stop the chaos.

 

The game wants you to think that the Reapers and the Catalyst are the bees-neez.  But they aren't.  Levithans are - and the motives they give Shepard don't add up.

 

The chaos doesn't have anything to do with synthetics taking over.  The balance found between the Geth and the Quarians proves that it is not inevitable for synthetics to take over.  This event, frankly, is probably not the first time its ever happened, either.  Hell, even EDI found balance with organic life.  Twice in one cycle is more than enough to prove that this inevitable event was never inevitable to begin with.

 

There's no threat to be found in this cycle of the nature expressed for the reason behind the harvest.  Shepard is awesome and all... but he ain't Space Jesus.  He can't prevent the inevitable from happening, since if its inevitable... then by definition, there is no stopping it.  However, obviously, Shepard "stopped the inevitable."  What is more reasonable - that Shepard is special (because Catalyst says so, who is probably lying about everything else anyway) or that it simply isn't inevitable in the first place?

 

We don't see any "harvesting" actually taking place.  All we see is death and destruction.  The citadel is filled with dead bodies - Reapers are laying waste to everything, just like in every other cycle.  So there is no reason to expect this extermination (the word Leviathan himself used) to be anything more than exactly that, especially if the only people telling us this are the ones who I am specifically calling out as liars.  Leviathan says to Shepard, after he asks them why they are hiding, that they are avoiding extermination.  Why are they afraid of extermination if this whole thing is about preserving life?  Why are they afraid of extermination from a thing they built that they can clearly, easily destroy?  Also, I thought that it wasn't an extermination... but a harvest of life... to protect it?  Why would Leviathan call it extermination?  Extermination is not protection - its an act of aggression specifically designed to create extinction.

 

  But I don't believe the Leviathans were ever harvested in the first place, and I don't believe they are in hiding - at least not for the reason they give Shepard.  These Leviathan dudes were total badasses.  One of them took on a Reaper and destroyed it - probably with relative ease.  In the beginning, when there was only one Reaper - Harbinger - do you really think the Leviathans would be scared of being harvested?  They were the first ones, right?  How does that even read to be in the realm of possibility?  A single giant worm on Tuchunka killed a Reaper.  It isn't that hard for the elder species to take one of these out.

 

Are the Leviathans in hiding?  I think so, yes.  But I don't think the reason they give you is the real reason.  I'll get more into this with my update.

 

Lastly, whether you're harvesting an unstable mass of civilization or you are murdering them for the sake of preventing their rebellion against a master race - the analogy of a fire in a forest remains true.

 

2/3.  An AI is built to think and to reason.  Shepard never sees the Catalyst doing much thinking or reasoning at the end of the game.  All we see him do is dump information.  Even when Shepard tries to reason with it, all it does is say his solutions are impossible and cannot be done.  It doesn't even entertain the possibility.  Furthermore, the Catalyst even existing in the first place might not be true.  I actually agree with the IT for the most part.  So, given that scenario... the Catalyst might just be something that Harbinger created for the purpose of Indoctrinating Shepard.

 

Either way, Catalyst in general is an anomaly whether you accept what I am saying, the IT theory, or face value.  I don't think there is enough information either way to accept one way or another.  He says he's an AI... but I think I've given enough reason to provide suspicion of the Leviathans' motives, thus giving rise to question the nature of Catalyst.

 

I do believe he was created by the Reapers - sine the Reapers built the Citadel and that is where he lives.  And I do believe he embodies the collective intelligence thereof - which is, as you say, a nebulous statement at best.  Since the Crucible only works while interacting with the Citadel, and the Crucible is the best collective intelligence of all life within a cycle, then it is reasonable to expect that he was built by the Reapers to interact with the Crucible - to assimilate the knowledge it possesses.

 

I'll get more into this with my next update.

 

4.  This is all a matter of perspective.  You're missing the larger point on this.  Tribute is one thing.  Squashing a rebellion is another.

 

The Crucible in Shepard's time is not the first time "The Crucible" has been built.  There's nothing special about The Crucible, except that it is the most advanced machinery and technology that a cycle can create.  The foundation of its design is of some unknown origin.  It's just built upon.  Every nation and every species contributes something new in each cycle.  Javik explains that it was never finished in his cycle.  I think there is a reason for this.

 

The reason for this is because Protheans conquered everything.  They were the only advanced lifeform/civilization in the entire galaxy during their cycle.  It would make sense that it was for this reason that the Reapers came in.  The Protheans were in a position to represent something that might be deemed a threat to the master race, if they were allowed to advance further.  They WERE a master race in their cycle.  So... the Reapers showed up before it was time - probably before their cycle was actually ready for it.

 

Plus, technology from the perspective of several different species is actually better than from one species.  Maybe it was never finished, because Protheans didn't know how to finish it?  There are all kinds of possibilities here.  Still... none of that really matters.

 

The main point is that you have a master race that has reached the apex of existence.  How long does it take for their tools, their slaves to build something that would even remotely come close to being something powerful enough for them to deem useful?  In the grand scheme of things, considering the rate of evolution... 50,000 years isn't really that long of a time.

 

More to the point:  Assuming everything I have stated, why would the Reapers cause their creators to be in hiding, yet still follow the mandate of collecting tribute and squashing rebellions?

 

I'll get back to this in my next update.

 

[Iakus]

That reference went right past me.

 

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A52--FKUQgU

 

No respect for the classics 

[Obadiah]

...
Which begs the bigger question about the ending:  Why go through all this trouble to "preserve life" when all you have to do is just take out the synthetics that are causing the problem?  What... is that too hard?  Why was that not an option? So what if the synthetics rebuild?  Just take them out again in the next cycle.  None of this makes any sense.
...

It makes sense to me.

The Organics want to build Synthetics. As their civilizations and technology advances, they'll keep building more and more advanced synthetics. Its a pattern of behavior of Organics that the Catalyst can't stop. Even if rebelling AI are detroyed, the Organics will build new ones eventually. Then one day the Catalyst and Organics won't be able to stop or destroy the Synthetics built. That's why the Catalyst goes after all life, Organics and Synthetic, of the advanced civilization. Their time is up and their behavior endangers all other Organics still evolving.
 

 

...
The chaos doesn't have anything to do with synthetics taking over.  The balance found between the Geth and the Quarians proves that it is not inevitable for synthetics to take over.  This event, frankly, is probably not the first time its ever happened, either.  Hell, even EDI found balance with organic life.  Twice in one cycle is more than enough to prove that this inevitable event was never inevitable to begin with.
...

Those are the examples everyone wishes that they could bring up with the Catalyst in the Decision Chamber, but there is another way to look at those successes.

The Geth almost wiped out their creators, the Quarians, just in their infancy. It doesn't matter who was at fault in the Morning War, the point is that AI, even in simply reacting the threats, can end up being extremely destructive. It took a Reaper invasion for the Geth to even survive the War for Rannoch in ME3, and the pending doom of Quarians to stand down from continuing to press their perceived advantage. In the peace that follows, there are still people like Xen looking to reclaim their slaves or build new ones. The peace on Rannoch is such an unlikely sequence of events, that peace of that nature probably almost never happens.

EDI is a singular individula forced to work with Organics. It needs organics the service and support the Normandy. What is going to happen when EDI, who is essentially Alliance property, asks for its freedom?

My point is, the peace between Synthetics and Orgnanics is possible in ME3 only because of the Reaper invasion that is forcing both sides to work together, and even if these few have peace, lets even say it turns out to be lasting peace, there are other AI that will be created by other civilizations that will rebel that will fall into the standard pattern of rebelling and losing, or destroying their creators. It doesn't matter that there is peace sometimes, eventually there will not be and the Catalyst's prediction will come to pass.

The pattern was there, we are told, repeatedly in the cycle of the Leviathan, it was there in the Cycle of the Protheans, and it will continue in the current cycle. The specifics may be different, but the pattern is there.

Ok, ok, so I don't have proof of this, but this is fiction not a mystery, and there only really needs to be narrative plausibility. For me, it's there.

There's another thread over here that talks about the Catalyst's logic:
http://forum.bioware...h-leviathan-dlc
 

 

 

...
there is no reason to expect this extermination (the word Leviathan himself used) to be anything more than exactly that, especially if the only people telling us this are the ones who I am specifically calling out as liars.
...

There is the Reaper we fought in ME2 and what we found in the Collector base, and the discussion with EDI and Legion about what the Reaper we fought was.
 

 

...
Leviathan says to Shepard, after he asks them why they are hiding, that they are avoiding extermination.  Why are they afraid of extermination if this whole thing is about preserving life?  Why are they afraid of extermination from a thing they built that they can clearly, easily destroy?  
...

From Leviathan's and our perspective, we would be exterminated. From the Catalyst's perspective, the "essence" of our civilization would be preserved.

[Raice]

It makes sense to me.

The Organics want to build Synthetics. As their civilizations and technology advances, they'll keep building more and more advanced synthetics. Its a pattern of behavior of Organics that the Catalyst can't stop. Even if rebelling AI are detroyed, the Organics will build new ones eventually. Then one day the Catalyst and Organics won't be able to stop or destroy the Synthetics built. That's why the Catalyst goes after all life, Organics and Synthetic, of the advanced civilization. Their time is up and their behavior endangers all other Organics still evolving.
 

 

Those are the examples everyone wishes that they could bring up with the Catalyst in the Decision Chamber, but there is another way to look at those successes.

The Geth almost wiped out their creators, the Quarians, just in their infancy. It doesn't matter who was at fault in the Morning War, the point is that AI, even in simply reacting the threats, can end up being extremely destructive. It took a Reaper invasion for the Geth to even survive the War for Rannoch in ME3, and the pending doom of Quarians to stand down from continuing to press their perceived advantage. In the peace that follows, there are still people like Xen looking to reclaim their slaves or build new ones. The peace on Rannoch is such an unlikely sequence of events, that peace of that nature probably almost never happens.

EDI is a singular individula forced to work with Organics. It needs organics the service and support the Normandy. What is going to happen when EDI, who is essentially Alliance property, asks for its freedom?

My point is, the peace between Synthetics and Orgnanics is possible in ME3 only because of the Reaper invasion that is forcing both sides to work together, and even if these few have peace, lets even say it turns out to be lasting peace, there are other AI that will be created by other civilizations that will rebel that will fall into the standard pattern of rebelling and losing, or destroying their creators. It doesn't matter that there is peace sometimes, eventually there will not be and the Catalyst's prediction will come to pass.

The pattern was there, we are told, repeatedly in the cycle of the Leviathan, it was there in the Cycle of the Protheans, and it will continue in the current cycle. The specifics may be different, but the pattern is there.

Ok, ok, so I don't have proof of this, but this is fiction not a mystery, and there only really needs to be narrative plausibility. For me, it's there.

There's another thread over here that talks about the Catalyst's logic:
http://forum.bioware...h-leviathan-dlc
 

 

 

There is the Reaper we fought in ME2 and what we found in the Collector base, and the discussion with EDI and Legion about what the Reaper we fought was.
 

 

From Leviathan's and our perspective, we would be exterminated. From the Catalyst's perspective, the "essence" of our civilization would be preserved.

 

How did Harbinger even begin to attempt to harvest an apex race like the Leviathans, when they can so easily destroy him?  It doesn't make sense that the Leviathans were harvested... even partially... unless they allowed themselves to be harvested.  But... honestly... I don't buy that for no other reason than they're just too arrogant.  Plus... again... what do they care about these problems?

 

Reapers appearing do perpetuate peace between synthetics and their creators.  That's part of the point of showing up in the first place.  Synthetic creations' intellect influence the creation of the Crucible... which is the tribute... which is the point of everything.  Either give the tribute - or be destroyed.  Honestly, I think they're destroyed anyway, since even knowing the existence of a cycle's reckoning would only perpetuate an uprising against the master race... which is now the Reapers... which happens immediately.  We already know Reapers evolve.  Catalyst evolved.  They evolve by the tribute.  I think Catalyst is the construct of the Reapers needing an interface between the Crucible and the Reapers.  This is why he embodies the collected intelligence.

 

Also... symbolism takes a big role in this.  "Leviathan" comes from biblical texts... and they aren't pleasant.  Today, they are more or less synonymous with Cthulu.  I am sure we're all aware of that analogous symbolism between Cthulu and the Reapers.  Now we even have more of a reason to think Leviathans aren't on the up and up - because they actually take on the name.   Plus, notice what they say "the darkness has been breached."  These things reside in the darkness.  They aren't reasonably on the side of "good" or even "balance", and they aren't symbolically either.  I suspect this has something to do with the Beings of Light that I was going to bring up later.  I suspect they are another "apex race" that were at some point in time at war with Leviathans.  Maybe they lost?  All of that is pure conjecture though, as even though there is evidence to support their existence within the ME lore, there isn't enough known about them to even speculate further.

 

I'm not saying what you're saying doesn't make sense.  In some respects, if I were to accept things at face value (which would be easier)... I would probably agree with you.  But there are just too many loop holes that aren't accounted for.  Plus... for all intents and purposes... everything I am proposing is simply a better basis for furthering the franchise - and I'm only building upon prior theories.  The other theories are very well documented - all of them.  The only thing I am really doing is adding the fact that Leviathans are evil and are lying.  Once you accept that as a possibility... really... the other theories take care of themselves.

 

I just don't see many people caring much for ME4's story if they just restart on something completely different.  None of it would matter.  No matter what epic battle they have planned, it wouldn't compare to "the end of all things" scenario we are presented with in ME3.  Plus... I guess they're suggesting Synthesis is the "canon" ending...

 

*sigh*  The possibilities of so much more are staring us right in the face, and all of it is built upon things found right inside the game.  It's not like these theories are that far fetched.  Even the IT isn't that far fetched.  The BoLT... well... it's a little far fetched as there is so little known about those in general.  Nothing I am saying is "out of this world unbelievable."  Seriously... how hard would it be for Bioware to say sometime during ME4, "Oh yeah... the Leviathans were lying.  Why would you even believe a symbolic Cthulu in the first place?  They are the emodiment of evil."  It is totally within the realm of reasonable possibility.  At least... it's more reasonable than accepting "space magic."

[Farangbaa]

How did Harbinger even begin to attempt to harvest an apex race like the Leviathans, when they can so easily destroy him?  It doesn't make sense that the Leviathans were harvested... even partially... unless they allowed themselves to be harvested.  But... honestly... I don't buy that for no other reason than they're just too arrogant.  Plus... again... what do they care about these problems?

Harbinger didn't exist when the Leviathan were harvested. The Leviathan were harvested by the Catalyst's pawns (most likely pure synthetic Reapers, instead of organic-synthetic hybrids).

Plus the Catalyst had the element of surprise, the Leviathan had no idea what was coming.

Reapers appearing do perpetuate peace between synthetics and their creators.  That's part of the point of showing up in the first place.  Synthetic creations' intellect influence the creation of the Crucible... which is the tribute... which is the point of everything.  Either give the tribute - or be destroyed.  Honestly, I think they're destroyed anyway, since even knowing the existence of a cycle's reckoning would only perpetuate an uprising against the master race... which is now the Reapers... which happens immediately.  We already know Reapers evolve.  Catalyst evolved.  They evolve by the tribute.  I think Catalyst is the construct of the Reapers needing an interface between the Crucible and the Reapers.  This is why he embodies the collected intelligence.

There is no indication of any of this in the game. The only evolution the Reapers had was perfecting indoctrination, for the rest they've stayed exactly the same ('perfect in their design'). The Reapers don't care for tribute, neither does the Catalyst.

Your claim that everything is a lie just opens up a window for massive headcanon of which there is zero indication in the game.

Also... symbolism takes a big role in this.  "Leviathan" comes from biblical texts... and they aren't pleasant.  Today, they are more or less synonymous with Cthulu.  I am sure we're all aware of that analogous symbolism between Cthulu and the Reapers.  Now we even have more of a reason to think Leviathans aren't on the up and up - because they actually take on the name.   Plus, notice what they say "the darkness has been breached."  These things reside in the darkness.  They aren't reasonably on the side of "good" or even "balance", and they aren't symbolically either.  I suspect this has something to do with the Beings of Light that I was going to bring up later.  I suspect they are another "apex race" that were at some point in time at war with Leviathans.  Maybe they lost?  All of that is pure conjecture though, as even though there is evidence to support their existence within the ME lore, there isn't enough known about them to even speculate further.

Leviathan just means monstrous sea creature. Which is exactly what they are. It has nothing to do with Cthulhu.
The darkness being breached is that it is known now that they are still alive, instead of being Creatures that no one knows about.

I'm not saying what you're saying doesn't make sense.  In some respects, if I were to accept things at face value (which would be easier)... I would probably agree with you.  But there are just too many loop holes that aren't accounted for.  Plus... for all intents and purposes... everything I am proposing is simply a better basis for furthering the franchise - and I'm only building upon prior theories.  The other theories are very well documented - all of them.  The only thing I am really doing is adding the fact that Leviathans are evil and are lying.  Once you accept that as a possibility... really... the other theories take care of themselves.

Which loopholes aren't accounted for?

Who says this is a better basis? You? Because you thought it up?

I just don't see many people caring much for ME4's story if they just restart on something completely different.  None of it would matter.  No matter what epic battle they have planned, it wouldn't compare to "the end of all things" scenario we are presented with in ME3.  Plus... I guess they're suggesting Synthesis is the "canon" ending...

No.

*sigh*  The possibilities of so much more are staring us right in the face, and all of it is built upon things found right inside the game.  It's not like these theories are that far fetched.  Even the IT isn't that far fetched.  The BoLT... well... it's a little far fetched as there is so little known about those in general.  Nothing I am saying is "out of this world unbelievable."  Seriously... how hard would it be for Bioware to say sometime during ME4, "Oh yeah... the Leviathans were lying.  Why would you even believe a symbolic Cthulu in the first place?  They are the emodiment of evil."  It is totally within the realm of reasonable possibility.  At least... it's more reasonable than accepting "space magic."

IT is ridiculous.

[ArabianIGoggles]

How did Harbinger even begin to attempt to harvest an apex race like the Leviathans, when they can so easily destroy him?  It doesn't make sense that the Leviathans were harvested... even partially... unless they allowed themselves to be harvested.  But... honestly... I don't buy that for no other reason than they're just too arrogant.  Plus... again... what do they care about these problems?
 
Reapers appearing do perpetuate peace between synthetics and their creators.  That's part of the point of showing up in the first place.  Synthetic creations' intellect influence the creation of the Crucible... which is the tribute... which is the point of everything.  Either give the tribute - or be destroyed.  Honestly, I think they're destroyed anyway, since even knowing the existence of a cycle's reckoning would only perpetuate an uprising against the master race... which is now the Reapers... which happens immediately.  We already know Reapers evolve.  Catalyst evolved.  They evolve by the tribute.  I think Catalyst is the construct of the Reapers needing an interface between the Crucible and the Reapers.  This is why he embodies the collected intelligence.
 
Also... symbolism takes a big role in this.  "Leviathan" comes from biblical texts... and they aren't pleasant.  Today, they are more or less synonymous with Cthulu.  I am sure we're all aware of that analogous symbolism between Cthulu and the Reapers.  Now we even have more of a reason to think Leviathans aren't on the up and up - because they actually take on the name.   Plus, notice what they say "the darkness has been breached."  These things reside in the darkness.  They aren't reasonably on the side of "good" or even "balance", and they aren't symbolically either.  I suspect this has something to do with the Beings of Light that I was going to bring up later.  I suspect they are another "apex race" that were at some point in time at war with Leviathans.  Maybe they lost?  All of that is pure conjecture though, as even though there is evidence to support their existence within the ME lore, there isn't enough known about them to even speculate further.
 
I'm not saying what you're saying doesn't make sense.  In some respects, if I were to accept things at face value (which would be easier)... I would probably agree with you.  But there are just too many loop holes that aren't accounted for.  Plus... for all intents and purposes... everything I am proposing is simply a better basis for furthering the franchise - and I'm only building upon prior theories.  The other theories are very well documented - all of them.  The only thing I am really doing is adding the fact that Leviathans are evil and are lying.  Once you accept that as a possibility... really... the other theories take care of themselves.
 
I just don't see many people caring much for ME4's story if they just restart on something completely different.  None of it would matter.  No matter what epic battle they have planned, it wouldn't compare to "the end of all things" scenario we are presented with in ME3.  Plus... I guess they're suggesting Synthesis is the "canon" ending...
 
*sigh*  The possibilities of so much more are staring us right in the face, and all of it is built upon things found right inside the game.  It's not like these theories are that far fetched.  Even the IT isn't that far fetched.  The BoLT... well... it's a little far fetched as there is so little known about those in general.  Nothing I am saying is "out of this world unbelievable."  Seriously... how hard would it be for Bioware to say sometime during ME4, "Oh yeah... the Leviathans were lying.  Why would you even believe a symbolic Cthulu in the first place?  They are the emodiment of evil."  It is totally within the realm of reasonable possibility.  At least... it's more reasonable than accepting "space magic."

 
 
You seem to be forgetting about the "army of pawns" that the Catalyst, aka the "intelligence" created for study of developing civilizations.  No time frame is given of how long the synthetic army was allowed to build and develop, and it isn't clarified how much information about the Leviathan the Catalyst has.  We do know it was a surprise attack, and that the Leviathans cannot control synthetics.  The way the Reaper capital ship was dropped was that it is not solely synthetic, and that the Leviathans have been studying for a very long time, likely the weaknesses of Reapers.  You do bring up several things about the beings of light that are really interesting.  I'd like the next game to expand upon that more.
 
not sure what's up with this site not using normal quote functions..

[Farangbaa]

ArabianIGoggles: when typing out a post, click the top left button in the post window. This turns off all fancy layout and gives you a pure text field in which you can type out the BB code (you can do this in the normal post window as well, but it automatically converts stuff to what the layout's going to be). I use this all the time to split out long posts into shorter quotes

[Vazgen]

You've written 

/[quote]

instead of

[/quote]

[Raice]

Harbinger didn't exist when the Leviathan were harvested. The Leviathan were harvested by the Catalyst's pawns (most likely pure synthetic Reapers, instead of organic-synthetic hybrids).

Plus the Catalyst had the element of surprise, the Leviathan had no idea what was coming.


There is no indication of any of this in the game. The only evolution the Reapers had was perfecting indoctrination, for the rest they've stayed exactly the same ('perfect in their design'). The Reapers don't care for tribute, neither does the Catalyst.

Your claim that everything is a lie just opens up a window for massive headcanon of which there is zero indication in the game.


Leviathan just means monstrous sea creature. Which is exactly what they are. It has nothing to do with Cthulhu.
The darkness being breached is that it is known now that they are still alive, instead of being Creatures that no one knows about.


Which loopholes aren't accounted for?

Who says this is a better basis? You? Because you thought it up?


No.


IT is ridiculous.

 

How does a Pawn harvest a Leviathan when a Reaper can't?  Element of surprise?  Lol... whatever...  Plus... what Pawns?

 

"Perfect in design" - "Ability to use mind control was improved upon" = not perfect in design = evolution possible.  Catalyst built Harbinger - it evolved to study civilization until the solution of harvesting was found.  Plus, search for better solution = Reapers/Catalyst might need Crucible.  This is a theory based on reading between the lines - for fun I might add.  You should try having fun with it instead of being dismissive because you don't like it.  Or... you don't have to say anything.  That works too.

 

You're wrong about Leviathans in ME not having anything to do with Cthulu.  The entire premise of Cthulu that H.P. Lovecraft created was based upon the biblical explanation of Leviathan, which wasn't just "a giant sea creature."  Leviathan in the bible was a massive terror of the deep [the water], the likes of which only God himself could overpower - which is basically how H.P. Lovecraft describes Cthulu.  H.P. Lovecraft is a favorite author for other authors to be inspired by in the Sci-Fi/Fantasy/and Horror genre.  It's not some weird coincidence that Leviathans and Reapers in ME look similar to how H.P. Lovecraft describes them - or Reapers for that matter.  The Cthulu connection was made years ago even in ME1.  This analogy isn't anything new.  Denying they are in no way related to one another is about as thick as a person can get, frankly.  You can design a Leviathan that simply is just a "giant sea creature" to look like anything - why would they design it like a Cthulu representation if they didn't borrow heavily from it?  Do some homework on this before you start spouting nonsense, please.

 

Everything I have said is nothing but indicated within the game.  I'm just not taking the indications the way you are.  I'm taking a different approach to what is being said.  I have not said or suggested a single thing that has not been backed up by what is said or demonstrated in the actual game.  I've been pretty thorough with my explanations.  If you don't enjoy this sort of thing - you don't have to participate.

 

"Loopholes" is a bad choice of words on my part.  I meant to say "things that are cloudy in certainty and/or open ended."  Prior to the extended cut and the Leviathan DLC, the ME3 ending didn't make much sense, nor was it certain that the ending we received actually explained anything at all.  Since then, the Extended Cut and the Leviathan DLC have given players somewhat of a sense of closure.  If it works for you - fine.  Have at it.  But it doesn't for me.  Nothing in any of the Mass Effect games even eludes to the premise of "space magic" being applicable.  This is not a Fantasy game.  It is science fiction.  This is the prime difference between them.  Science Fiction has to explain itself.  Fantasy doesn't, as it can just say "It's magic" whenever something out of character for the pretense of the story presents itself.  "Synthesis" is not explained, and I don't buy "It's magic!" - which is what they gave us.  If this were Dragon Age or something... I'd be okay with that.  But it isn't.

 

 

I say it's a better basis because it makes sense of theories already presented, that have been thoroughly documented elsewhere.  Moreover, it provides a basis for which the franchise could continue as a Sci-Fi epic, instead of a Fantasy cross-over.  You don't have to agree with what I am suggesting, and you don't have to like it.  But I don't think you are an authority on what I think is better or not better.

 

"No" what?

 

IT isn't ridiculous just because you don't like it.  I happen to like it, and it makes sense.  It makes even MORE sense with my suggestions.  But again... you don't have to agree or like it.

[Farangbaa]

I disagree with everything you say.

For starters, and this is explained in the game, the Reapers don't harvest the species. The processor ships do, which are neither sentient not sapient. The synthetic pawns could easily have controlled these ships, or the Catalyst for that matter.

The Reapers are the Cthulhu's, not the Leviathan. Or at least they were, until it became possible to beat them. You can't beat Cthulhu, ever.

Lol everything you say is in the game? And it only works when everybody is lying it's ass off? That's headcanon.

No fantasy? Well about that 'essence'?

No to what? To people not being able to play ME4 without your headcanon. ME4 doesn't have to be on the same level of epic giant space Cthulhu's (again, the Reapers), and it probably won't be.

Yes, it is ridiculous. It makes use of reused textures to make it's point. Clear oversights are used as arguments. And the fact that NOTHING HAPPENED. The Reapers aren't dead/controlled/made green, you basically didn't even finish the trilogy. It's not an ending, it's the absence of an ending. Shepard's story is done, over, finished, as has been said many times by bioware. He will not be in ME4. What you see is what happened, deal with it.

[Raice]

I disagree with everything you say.

For starters, and this is explained in the game, the Reapers don't harvest the species. The processor ships do, which are neither sentient not sapient. The synthetic pawns could easily have controlled these ships, or the Catalyst for that matter.

The Reapers are the Cthulhu's, not the Leviathan. Or at least they were, until it became possible to beat them. You can't beat Cthulhu, ever.

Lol everything you say is in the game? And it only works when everybody is lying it's ass off? That's headcanon.

No fantasy? Well about that 'essence'?

No to what? To people not being able to play ME4 without your headcanon. ME4 doesn't have to be on the same level of epic giant space Cthulhu's (again, the Reapers), and it probably won't be.

Yes, it is ridiculous. It makes use of reused textures to make it's point. Clear oversights are used as arguments. And the fact that NOTHING HAPPENED. The Reapers aren't dead/controlled/made green, you basically didn't even finish the trilogy. It's not an ending, it's the absence of an ending. Shepard's story is done, over, finished, as has been said many times by bioware. He will not be in ME4. What you see is what happened, deal with it.

 

You seem to be taking things personally - like I'm trying to convince people of something.  You are wrong in that assumption.  This isn't me trying to convince anyone of anything.  So you can turn off your torpedoes and phasers.  This is just for fun.  If you don't like it - again, you don't have to participate.

 

You can disagree.  I never said you couldn't.  Just so we're clear - I disagree with you as I am not accepting the things in the game the way you are.  I am accepting them differently and thinking about things differently.  If you don't want to think about things differently - then don't.  No one is forcing you.  But you aren't refuting anything I've said.  So what if processing ships did the harvesting.  Does that have anything to do with anything I've said?

 

So what if it's head cannon?  Really... so what?  Are you so emotionally imbalanced that you can't deal with other people having fun with a concept?  Are you the fun police?  Who made you sheriff?  Get off this elevator.

 

I never said "everyone is lying."  I said that Leviathan and the Catalyst were lying.  These also are the only 2 beings in the entire game that know what is going on, and they both have something to lose if they tell you the truth.  This isn't something hard for a reasonable person to wrap their head around.

 

ME4 doesn't have to have anything to do with anything I'm saying.  It likely won't.  I'm okay with that.  And I don't have a problem with it being "not about Shepard."  Your responses are based on nothing but presumptions about me.  I can have my fun, and it isn't hurting anyone.  So you should stop taking it personally like it's an insult directed toward you.  Deal with that.

[Obadiah]

I just don't see many people caring much for ME4's story if they just restart on something completely different. None of it would matter. No matter what epic battle they have planned, it wouldn't compare to "the end of all things" scenario we are presented with in ME3.

Oh, I don't know about that. ME1 and DA:O had some pretty high sales figures and those were brand new franchises. Hell, I bought copies of those games as gifts for people. I've never done that with any other video games EVER. If EA/Bioware makes a good game with a good story, it will sell.
 

...
Plus... I guess they're suggesting Synthesis is the "canon" ending...
...

As a ending I like Synthesis (usually don't pick it though) because it forces the player into the position of accepting change from some outsider on a level similar to what Sheaprd has been pushing on members of the galaxy throughout the trilogy - supposedly for the better, but unwelcome. The Cataylst basically does to us, what Shep does the the Quarians at the War for Rannoch - "hey, your plan isn't going to work; you think it will but it will lead to your doom; you're partly to blame for all of this anyway; and, oh yeah, you need to change in a way you probably don't want to."

There has been enough time since my initial confusion with the ending for me to consider it a surprisingly elegant plot twist.
 

*sigh* The possibilities of so much more are staring us right in the face, and all of it is built upon things found right inside the game. It's not like these theories are that far fetched. Even the IT isn't that far fetched. The BoLT... well... it's a little far fetched as there is so little known about those in general. Nothing I am saying is "out of this world unbelievable." Seriously... how hard would it be for Bioware to say sometime during ME4, "Oh yeah... the Leviathans were lying. Why would you even believe a symbolic Cthulu in the first place? They are the emodiment of evil." It is totally within the realm of reasonable possibility. At least... it's more reasonable than accepting "space magic."

For sure it's not unbelievable. I was just pointing out some of the larger issues with it. It's fun to speculate on this stuff, but once you open the door to lies in ME, most of the trilogy becomes very difficult to understand, and many things become possible.

[ArabianIGoggles]

Maybe you should try playing the Leviathan DLC.  It's by far the best one IMO.  Watching videos of it isn't really the same.  And the voice of Leviathan is so awesome.

[Raice]

Oh, I don't know about that. ME1 and DA:O had some pretty high sales figures and those were brand new franchises. Hell, I bought copies of those games as gifts for people. I've never done that with any other video games EVER. If EA/Bioware makes a good game with a good story, it will sell.
 
As a ending I like Synthesis (usually don't pick it though) because it forces the player into the position of accepting change from some outsider on a level similar to what Sheaprd has been pushing on members of the galaxy throughout the trilogy - supposedly for the better, but unwelcome. The Cataylst basically does to us, what Shep does the the Quarians at the War for Rannoch - "hey, your plan isn't going to work; you think it will but it will lead to your doom; you're partly to blame for all of this anyway; and, oh yeah, you need to change in a way you probably don't want to."

There has been enough time since my initial confusion with the ending for me to consider it a surprisingly elegant plot twist.
 
For sure it's not unbelievable. I was just pointing out some of the larger issues with it. It's fun to speculate on this stuff, but once you open the door to lies in ME, most of the trilogy becomes very difficult to understand, and many things become possible.

 

I think calling a game ME4 and it not having anything to do with the previous titles, or completely changing settings, eras, whatever - is kind of like Batman Begins accepting Batman and Robin as previously establish cannon.  I don't know.  I think it would be harder to accept playing adventures in Mass Effect knowing the most catastrophic be all to end all scenarios has already taken place.  It just... feels weird to me.  It's like... when you've already dealt with the threat of the most ancient and the most powerful beings in the galaxy... what else really matters, lol?  You know?  How do you one-up that?  "Oh, that's nothing.  Now we're going on a universal scale!"  Sure... okay... lol.

 

I might be alone in that thinking, but it just seems like it would be hard to really invest your emotions in whatever story they come up with.  It would be like trying to have adventures in game about "The Matrix."  It's not like in Star Wars where they can just change eras.  Star Wars doesn't deal with stories that span an infinitum amount of time like the ME Trilogy did.

 

Then again, maybe since I've only beaten it just recently, it seems too soon to me.  Most of you guys beat it years ago, I'm sure.  So a new idea and a fresh start might seem more plausible for you.

 

Synthesis... to me... well... I don't know if it was the way everything was presented or... I don't know.  The whole idea to me seems to change the story from a really good Sci-Fi to Fantasy.  I don't hate Fantasy... I just don't like mixing them up once the genre has been established.  It's like what George Lucas did with the Force and Midichlorians.  By explaining Midichlorians and how they are part of the Force... to me, he changed the nature of the genre from Fantasy to Science Fiction.

 

Star Wars was never "Science Fiction" to me.  It was always Fantasy.  I grew up with the original trilogy.  It had an old wizard (Obi Wan) with some kind of magic (the Force), a young boy who was destined to be his apprentice (Luke), who got the magic sword of power (lightsaber), and met a vagrant and his partner (Chewie and Han) to help save a princess (Leia) from an evil wizard in black robes (Darth Vader) from his secret castle (Death Star.)  And then the second two movies never changed the established genre.  If anything, they improved upon it.  Even the actors back in the day, if you go back and listen to how they perceived the script, they felt it was a classic fairy tale type of adventure story.  And then Episode I happened, and in one conversation... the whole thing changed by explaining the "science" behind the "magic".

 

But... anyway... I don't blame anyone for accepting things as they are.  I really don't.  All this stuff I'm talking about will probably wear off in a few weeks or days anyway.  So it's not a big deal.