16 réponses à ce sujet

[Xiltas]

Sorry if already someone made a similar post, just wanted to elaborate on an idea I just had.

 

What do we know about possession in relation to Darkspawn?

First, there's the song. Archdemons use it to control the Darkspawn and lure them to their prison underground. We saw that Corypheus could imitate it to a degree, and was even able to manipulate Grey Wardens (who are otherwise only affected by it when they're near to their Calling), so perhaps he has to be treated in a similar fashion as an Archdemon.

Second, the matter of Slaying an Archdemon. As we know, if someone other than a Warden slays the Archdemon, its soul just wanders to the nearest Darkspawn, slowly altering their body to be fully reborn. On the other hand, if it's a Warden who slays it, the Archdemon's soul will try to occupy his body, but because there's already a soul in place, the attempt destroys both the Warden's and the Archdemon's souls, killing each one of them.

 

Corypheus, even though he is a Darkspawn, would still have a soul, so perhaps there'd be a similar process. Killed by Hawke, an untainted mortal, Corypheus should have jumped to the nearest Darkspawn. Instead, he apparently possessed Larius(or the other Warden, can't recall her name), a Grey Warden, who has a soul!

So how is that possible? The problem is a simple one:

As far as we know, since their inception, it was always a Grey Warden who slew the Archdemon, we don't know what would've happened if a normal human being would have tried it while a Grey Warden was with them.

Would this be the case for every Darkspawn with a soul? That if slain by someone other than a Warden, a Darkspawn-soul is able to possess all tainted beings, even a Warden? Than that would be one possible answer to Corypheus' (possible) survival.

 

However, if we assume that an Archdemon is a special case, since he has the soul of an old god, Hawke's attempt should have been enough to get rid of Corypheus for good. Yet, there's a significant difference between Corypheus and the Archdemons: he is a mage, not only that, but a blood mage (and perhaps a Dreamer?).

What is one of the most feared powers of a blood mage in the lore? Exactly, mind control.

So the other option (that I think is true), is that in his last moments, Corypheus used his mind control-powers to break the mind of the Warden we chose to help and transferred his consciousness, possibly not erasing the Warden's persona but suppressing it.

 

What are your thoughts on this matter?

[EmperorKarino]

Sorry if already someone made a similar post, just wanted to elaborate on an idea I just had.

 

What do we know about possession in relation to Darkspawn?

First, there's the song. Archdemons use it to control the Darkspawn and lure them to their prison underground. We saw that Corypheus could imitate it to a degree, and was even able to manipulate Grey Wardens (who are otherwise only affected by it when they're near to their Calling), so perhaps he has to be treated in a similar fashion as an Archdemon.

Second, the matter of Slaying an Archdemon. As we know, if someone other than a Warden slays the Archdemon, its soul just wanders to the nearest Darkspawn, slowly altering their body to be fully reborn. On the other hand, if it's a Warden who slays it, the Archdemon's soul will try to occupy his body, but because there's already a soul in place, the attempt destroys both the Warden's and the Archdemon's souls, killing each one of them.

 

Corypheus, even though he is a Darkspawn, would still have a soul, so perhaps there'd be a similar process. Killed by Hawke, an untainted mortal, Corypheus should have jumped to the nearest Darkspawn. Instead, he apparently possessed Larius(or the other Warden, can't recall her name), a Grey Warden, who has a soul!

So how is that possible? The problem is a simple one:

As far as we know, since their inception, it was always a Grey Warden who slew the Archdemon, we don't know what would've happened if a normal human being would have tried it while a Grey Warden was with them.

Would this be the case for every Darkspawn with a soul? That if slain by someone other than a Warden, a Darkspawn-soul is able to possess all tainted beings, even a Warden? Than that would be one possible answer to Corypheus' (possible) survival.

 

However, if we assume that an Archdemon is a special case, since he has the soul of an old god, Hawke's attempt should have been enough to get rid of Corypheus for good. Yet, there's a significant difference between Corypheus and the Archdemons: he is a mage, not only that, but a blood mage (and perhaps a Dreamer?).

What is one of the most feared powers of a blood mage in the lore? Exactly, mind control.

So the other option (that I think is true), is that in his last moments, Corypheus used his mind control-powers to break the mind of the Warden we chose to help and transferred his consciousness, possibly not erasing the Warden's persona but suppressing it.

 

What are your thoughts on this matter?

 

brilliant, i never thought of corypheus that way, i just figured he was able to possess a warden because he was magically powerful, i never though of him having the qualities of an archdemon, it would make sense since the original magisters were the first darkspawn and caused the taint to the old gods and made the darkspawn what they are today. maybe its why the chantry was looking for the warden as well as hawke. thank you for bringing this theory, i'm thinking you aren't far off from the truth unless this is totally correct.

[TheChosenOne]

Sorry if already someone made a similar post, just wanted to elaborate on an idea I just had.

 

What do we know about possession in relation to Darkspawn?

First, there's the song. Archdemons use it to control the Darkspawn and lure them to their prison underground. We saw that Corypheus could imitate it to a degree, and was even able to manipulate Grey Wardens (who are otherwise only affected by it when they're near to their Calling), so perhaps he has to be treated in a similar fashion as an Archdemon.

Second, the matter of Slaying an Archdemon. As we know, if someone other than a Warden slays the Archdemon, its soul just wanders to the nearest Darkspawn, slowly altering their body to be fully reborn. On the other hand, if it's a Warden who slays it, the Archdemon's soul will try to occupy his body, but because there's already a soul in place, the attempt destroys both the Warden's and the Archdemon's souls, killing each one of them.

 

Corypheus, even though he is a Darkspawn, would still have a soul, so perhaps there'd be a similar process. Killed by Hawke, an untainted mortal, Corypheus should have jumped to the nearest Darkspawn. Instead, he apparently possessed Larius(or the other Warden, can't recall her name), a Grey Warden, who has a soul!

So how is that possible? The problem is a simple one:

As far as we know, since their inception, it was always a Grey Warden who slew the Archdemon, we don't know what would've happened if a normal human being would have tried it while a Grey Warden was with them.

Would this be the case for every Darkspawn with a soul? That if slain by someone other than a Warden, a Darkspawn-soul is able to possess all tainted beings, even a Warden? Than that would be one possible answer to Corypheus' (possible) survival.

 

However, if we assume that an Archdemon is a special case, since he has the soul of an old god, Hawke's attempt should have been enough to get rid of Corypheus for good. Yet, there's a significant difference between Corypheus and the Archdemons: he is a mage, not only that, but a blood mage (and perhaps a Dreamer?).

What is one of the most feared powers of a blood mage in the lore? Exactly, mind control.

So the other option (that I think is true), is that in his last moments, Corypheus used his mind control-powers to break the mind of the Warden we chose to help and transferred his consciousness, possibly not erasing the Warden's persona but suppressing it.

 

What are your thoughts on this matter?

 

But really, this is a good theory on Corypheus  

[leaguer of one]

*Look at the past 2 responses.

 

This is not obvious?

[Aulis Vaara]

The most likely reason that arch demons die when they transfer into a warden and Corypheus doesn't, is because grey wardens have consumed arch demon blood. This is probably also why they can resist the arch demon's call, but have more trouble with that of Corypheus.

Other than that, arch demons and the magisterial seem to have the same powers (quite funny that the magisters did end up having the same powers as their gods). This tells us that the old gods have something to do with the black city. My guess is that they keep the Forgotten Ones locked up in there.

[the inquisitor94]

Corypheus reminds me terribly the Architect from Da awakening. Both of them are magisters how have retained their magic and the sanity- sense, although for me they are both loonies that need to be put down and be examined. As we can understand from his rumble he is an ancient magister from the Dumat worship period and one of them who went to the Black City. Maybe the are the right hand of the tainted Old Gods, as they were in life. They could have a soul and their creation should be different than the others darkspawns we have encountered. 

 

I like the above theory but the part about blood magic doesn't quite fit me. I don't think no matter how powerful a blood mage to perform a body switch type of magic or possession, mind control all for it we've seen it with Janeka. He has a calling type if you remember there was an entry about the wacky things that happen in Kirkwall and the large amount of darkspawns happen because of him or a strong ancient evil. Tooo much crazy things have happened there, too many blood magic and demons and ancient demons and thin veil. But Corypheus is a "good" enemy to be encountered in DaI along with the Architect if you let him live (i did).

[Ieldra]

I think the similarity between Corypheus' survival and an Archdemon's if they're killed is no coincidence. It appears to me there's something in the Taint that lets infected people connect to each other. I believe such connection, implying a measure of control, may have been the "power of the gods themselves" the magisters have been after, and that Corypheus has achieved what he set out to achieve to some degree.

 

As for the differences, the metaphysical terms used to describe what happens mask that we actually don't know anything about the mechanics of consciousness transfer used in either case. What exactly is a "soul", for one? It is implied that whatever it is, it does not carry identity, else Morrigan's Old God child would be an Old God for all practical purposes, which it won't be if we can believe her. It is used differently in other circumstances, cementing our ignorance about the actual mechanics.

 

The difference between the way an Archdemon survives if not killed by a Warden and the way Corypheus survives may or may not be significant. I'm inclined to think there is no real contradiction and our knowledge of the process is simply insufficient to explain either correctly. I've never found the explanation of the Archdemon's death convincing in the first place and I think that's the greater oddity considering the general tendency of the Taint to create connections and the ability for consciousness transfer.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

So Corypheus is whining that he didnt get the power of the gods and the black city. 

But he actually did? 

Good read but still confused

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Both of them are magisters how have retained their magic and the sanity- sense, although for me they are both loonies that need to be put down and be examined.

Heresy... Corypheus is to be obeyed. He serves our great lord Dumat  

Herald of Andraste, nay. Herald of Dumat, yay! (Now if THAT title and choice is in the game I will personally buy a ticket to Canada and hug David Gaider until they have to remove me with several prybars and taser shots)

[Ieldra]

So Corypheus is whining that he didnt get the power of the gods and the black city. 

But he actually did? 

Good read but still confused

He isn't exactly at his best right after you open the prison, and his influence on the Wardens and the Carta dwarves appears to have worked on a subconscious level. Still, it exists. We don't know what's in the Black City, but he has gained a significant power he wouldn't have had as a human mage, so much I think we can count as a fact. He's also gained a power we know the Archdemons have, and if we can believe what people say, they are Tainted Old Gods.

[angelofsol]

Herald of Andraste, nay. Herald of Dumat, yay! (Now if THAT title and choice is in the game I will personally buy a ticket to Canada and hug David Gaider until they have to remove me with several prybars and taser shots)

I don't think you'll be buying a ticket to Canada.  Dumat is dead, killed by Grey Wardens. He was the archdemon of the first blight.  So I think a Herald of Dumat is going to be off the table.  That is unless we completely get thrown for a loop and some of the theories out there about who Flemeth and/or Sandal are prove to be correct (such as one of both of them being Old Gods or even OGBs themselves).  So who knows.

I for one sure hope that whatever Flemeth is she isn't Dumat in one form or another.

[RobRam10]

Does it matter how he survive? The Master lives and he walks in the sun once more!

[Medhia_Nox]

@RobRam10:  Not for long.

[Sifr]

I like the idea that him being a powerful blood mage is part of the reason he's able to soul-surf, since some of the codex's mention him being able to do things that other darkspawn can't.

 

Another possibility is as we've seen with Flemeth, that it's easy to possess someone if are able to prepare the vessel before hand. The Dark Ritual has Morrigan similarly mention that the OGB is created because you've specially prepared them as a vessel to receive the Archdemon's soul.

 

It might be that the Archdemon being killed by a Grey Warden when it tries to jump into them, is not because of the two souls destroying each other, but because we're watching the result of an uncontrolled possession into an inadequate host, which can prove fatal to both parties?

 

Corypheus has had some time to gain a foothold in both Larius and Janeka's minds, (the former having little resistance due to his advanced ghoulification and the latter is mentioned as being influenced into trying to release him), so it might have been easier for him to take them over?

[Eclipsia]

Love your theory!

I always thought the last comments from Larius and Janeka were very creepy.  I didn't even cross my mind that Corypheus' soul or consciousness could have transferred. Maybe he did something like Flemeth did with the amulet for survival?  Just a part, piece, or fragment sent into the warden?   

[Xiltas]

I like the idea that him being a powerful blood mage is part of the reason he's able to soul-surf, since some of the codex's mention him being able to do things that other darkspawn can't.

 

Another possibility is as we've seen with Flemeth, that it's easy to possess someone if are able to prepare the vessel before hand. The Dark Ritual has Morrigan similarly mention that the OGB is created because you've specially prepared them as a vessel to receive the Archdemon's soul.

 

It might be that the Archdemon being killed by a Grey Warden when it tries to jump into them, is not because of the two souls destroying each other, but because we're watching the result of an uncontrolled possession into an inadequate host, which can prove fatal to both parties?

 

Corypheus has had some time to gain a foothold in both Larius and Janeka's minds, (the former having little resistance due to his advanced ghoulification and the latter is mentioned as being influenced into trying to release him), so it might have been easier for him to take them over?

 

An uncontrolled possession you say? Well, that is certainly one explanation. It would make sense, if we assume we "know" the requirements of a successful attempt. One possibility is that the chosen vessel should not have a mind of his own. A warden is a grown up person, with a fully developed conscious and subconscious. On the other hand, a Darkspawn (and an embryo as well) is, so to say, an empty vessel, a blank slate.

Picture this:

The mind as a jar. If you take a warden, his jar is already full with his memories, experiences and personality. If you try to fill a full jar, it would spill its content.

A Darkspawn, and an embryo, are jars that are empty. An embryo just didn't have a chance yet to fill it's jar. A Darkspawn is not able to fill it, because the song of an Archdemon acts as a seal. Does this mean an Archdemon would also be unable to possess an Awakened Darkspawn because their jar is no longer sealed? They are a fairly recent phenomenon, so we have no way of knowing if that would be the case.

 

Concerning Larius and Janeka, it could certainly be possible, that it helped him to switch. Insofar, it would also make sense that he chose one of them over Grey Warden Bethany/Carver or Anders, because he had too little contact with their minds to prepare them for a mind transfer.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I don't think you'll be buying a ticket to Canada.  Dumat is dead, killed by Grey Wardens. He was the archdemon of the first blight.  So I think a Herald of Dumat is going to be off the table.  That is unless we completely get thrown for a loop and some of the theories out there about who Flemeth and/or Sandal are prove to be correct (such as one of both of them being Old Gods or even OGBs themselves).  So who knows.

I for one sure hope that whatever Flemeth is she isn't Dumat in one form or another.

There is no evidence that Dumat is dead. The DA universe is similar to game of thrones in that information given by the world can often be wrong. But yeah I agree the chance of him existing still and the scenario I wanted happening - are slim to none