295 réponses à ce sujet

[Lilaeth]

Subconscious sexification.

I don't think it's even that subconscious!    And I'd add 'control' to the equation.

[SpiritMuse]

I don't think this is relevant. I don't think most people in most cultures like seeing men run with such ... flourish, while most wouldn't blink an eye if a women ran with (or without) hip sway.
 
Come to think of it, I'm fairly certain that a lot of women and men in my part of the world have a similar "idle" stance as the female Hawke one. I do it too sometimes, by leaning on one side and on my hip. We don't especially care to call it feminine. (Although the DA2 one is a smidge excessive )
 
I don't think the female animations are as bad as people say they are, but I agree that making all female characters exhibit such "hyper-feminine" behavior isn't fine either. Perhaps they can implement an option for male animations on females (and the other way around for those seeking a flamboyant male character).

Now I want to make a hip-swaying male Qunari.

[Lebanese Dude]

Now I want to make a hip-swaying male Qunari.

 

That would...stand out lol

[Enrychan]

In reality men and women do not walk or run so differently (except when a woman is wearing high heels, for obvious reasons). We think they do because we are conditioned by social factors that have nothing to do with human anatomy. Speaking as an artist, even looking for decent references can be very difficult because a woman who knows she's being filmed tends to walk differently (maybe only slightly differently), again because of social conditioning - she thinks, often uncounsciusly, that she has to look more attractive.
 
If we look at a video with men and women just passing by unaware of the camera, we see there is not much difference between their movements

 

 

To be honest I found femHawke's animations to be extremely distracting. I hope my Inquisitor's movements will be at least a little more natural.

[wtfman99]

People really whine over the smallest things.

[Lord Bolton]

People really whine over the smallest things.

I need to deal with this female animation problems all the time while playing DA2. It annoys me non-stop, because it's not natural and it seems BioWare can't learn from their own mistakes (DA:I) so I'll have to deal with this again. Yes, it's a small thing. Really small... my female character is not a model (female running/idle animation), she's not a "big, muscular guy" either (male animations during cutscenes). The difference between these two animations are just hilarious. Like they can't make something in the middle... something neutral and normal.

[llawsford]

I hope it will possible to do something with camera placement in cutscenes so we don't have to look at this... horror. Just wondering what they have done in case of *female exclusive* cutscenes. Sera/Blackwall romance ones for example.

[FumikoM]

I hope it will possible to do something with camera placement in cutscenes so we don't have to look at this... horror. Just wondering what they have done in case of *female exclusive* cutscenes. Sera/Blackwall romance ones for example.

I would guess they're still using male animations for those scenes because the game does not check gender when it plays animations in cutscenes. And male animations being the default and all. Would be better if they had made sure the game loads the proper animations in cutscenes. Unfortunately there have been no answer from Bioware on this either so I guess we're stuck with it it.

[LaughingWolf]

What I do not understand is why the information regarding gender and animation is not loaded into the cutscene. It already do this with meshes and gender and what armor you wear, as well as voice, class, etc. Does it really take that much to make it respect your gender choice when it comes to animations, considering it already do this in normal gameplay?

 Short version is yes it does. Bioware would need to animate every possible cutscene multiple times; which takes time and money away from some other aspect of the game.

[FumikoM]

 Short version is yes it does. Bioware would need to animate every possible cutscene multiple times; which takes time and money away from some other aspect of the game.

Does that not depend on how everything it set up? How the engine works, etc. Current one obviously need animations to be tweaked beforehand and so unlike armor and weapons they do not get called up depending on gender, in a script. Less fuss and chance for glitches I guess, but one weakness we're seeing now. And I'm also guessing it may have something to do with consoles and their memory.

[llawsford]

Short version is yes it does. Bioware would need to animate every possible cutscene multiple times; which takes time and money away from some other aspect of the game.

They could work this out with camera angles and placement more easily I suppose. But they probably won't bother. Eh.

[LaughingWolf]

Does that not depend on how everything it set up? How the engine works, etc. Current one obviously need animations to be tweaked beforehand and so unlike armor and weapons they do not get called up depending on gender, in a script. Less fuss and chance for glitches I guess, but one weakness we're seeing now. And I'm also guessing it may have something to do with consoles and their memory.

Regardless, Bioware would need to make slightly separate animations for the same cutscene. It can be done, but not without allotting time and assets to the creation of those new animations. Bioware would need to make the same cutscene at least twice-- the only difference being the "male" or "female" animations (probably more than two because of the multiple races).

Overall, its not worth the time and money.

[LaughingWolf]

They could work this out with camera angles and placement more easily I suppose. But they probably won't bother. Eh.

Animations would still be the same; then people would complain about the animations and the fact that Bioware would be using the same angles over and over.

[Dutchess]

Regardless, Bioware would need to make slightly separate animations for the same cutscene. It can be done, but not without allotting time and assets to the creation of those new animations. Bioware would need to make the same cutscene at least twice-- the only difference being the "male" or "female" animations (probably more than two because of the multiple races).

Overall, its not worth the time and money.

 

Then they should just make one neutral animation that fits both just fine. 

[HeyCal]

Nothing is better than rping a feminine woman and having her walk like a man. I am hoping its not too irritating as I play, but I really don't want it to be like ME again, where you are basically told you can't be feminine or girly if you want to. Don't get me started on the way Femshep sat, ugh. Its kind of irritating that games seem to tell us that any woman that has alot of power can't be "ladylike". I'm beyond sick of women having to wear pantsuits at parties or be forced to act more tomboyish. I highly HIGHLY hope that my female inquisitor doesn't have dude animations when she's snuggling with Cullen. 

 

I'm glad Cassandra walks more "wiggley", just because she is a warrior doesn't mean she has to be super gruff and manly. And I'm saying this as a guy, its so double standard-ey for guys to come in here and say they'd never play Bioware again if they made the female animations the default, while women are saying they don't want to play women with male animations and are told to suffer because its easier. Smells like BS to me. If they are going to have different races and genders, they should accommodate that in the cutscenes, different bodies and statures will have different gaits.

[FumikoM]

Regardless, Bioware would need to make slightly separate animations for the same cutscene. It can be done, but not without allotting time and assets to the creation of those new animations. Bioware would need to make the same cutscene at least twice-- the only difference being the "male" or "female" animations (probably more than two because of the multiple races).

Overall, its not worth the time and money.

The female animations for walking and standing already exist, so no reason to create new ones. They would just need the cutscene to call those female animations, that's it.

[llawsford]

Animations would still be the same; then people would complain about the animations and the fact that Bioware would be using the same angles over and over.

I'd take same angles over and over than this gorilla-like animations anytime xD

[LaughingWolf]

Then they should just make one neutral animation that fits both just fine.

They have. The animations now are pretty gender neutral; the male looks slightly odd in some scenes just like the female does. This evident not just in the trailers for DA:I, but also looking back at Biowares latest game ME3.
The animations now are pretty neutral.
Also, just to add, when wearing armour and doing anything that is very physically labouring; men and women move quite similarly.

[llawsford]

They have. The animations now are pretty gender neutral; the male looks slightly odd in some scenes just like the female does. This evident not just in the trailers for DA:I, but also looking back at Biowares latest game ME3.
The animations now are pretty neutral.
Also, just to add, when wearing armour and doing anything that is very physically labouring; men and women move quite similarly.

 

Well, IMO they failed. I can't believe *anyone* would find this kind of walking style normal or natural (that applies to both men and women of course). This is just mindblowing. But maybe that's just me.

[Nonoru]

A "consequent cost" as you say because this is what BioWare chose from the onset.

 

This is a brand new engine, yet again. Why 3 games - 3 engines? Who knows, that's what BioWare chose, but to put it forth as an extra cost? This cost only arises because of the way it was done in the first place despite fans' objections, granted mainly female, from prior titles.

 

It isn't an issue coming with the engine or improper use of motion capture. It's a matter of budget. Not everything can fit in said budget. While having this fixed would please some people, from a developer standing, it simply doesn't justify the cost that could be used for it. Cut-scenes take also a lot of space and taking in account all gender and body shape variants, it's an investment that you have to consider. Some sacrifice have to be made after all. It's not that Bioware doesn't learn here, it's simply that the share of budget required is probably too costly to cover for something that you wouldn't notice unless you paid special attention to such brief moments. (Which here is easily spotted because people are probably watching the same videos over and over until they finally get the game)

 

I doubt Bioware wishes to alienate the feminine side of the fanbase. 

[LaughingWolf]

Well, IMO they failed. I can't believe *anyone* would find this kind of walking style normal or natural (that applies to both men and women of course). This is just mindblowing. But maybe that's just me.

I agree they failed; the walking style isn't very natural. I said it was gender neutral, and it is - it is not however very well done.

As Spectre Impersonator has pointed out: this is an animation issue, not a gender or sexism issue as it is being raised as.

(I know you specifically aren't portraying it as one, but many others are unfortunately)