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Fan backlash stopped the real mass effect ending according to industry vet


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#1
BigglesFlysAgain

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Now basicly I know this sounds like annother clickbaity waste of time thread, but for context I sat through the whole blooming ending  afair and posted in the mega thread, and I have no reason to spread this around or even post here other than for my own interest.

 

Now, I have a recording of a livestream yesterday here, which for full disclosure and context was created for the discussion of the "Gamergate" mess, which will NOT be discussed in this thread, moderators, this is meerly to spread an interesting insight on the ending from an industry insider, who does not claim to have worked for bioware as far as I know. He was also not brought on specificly to discuss mass effect 3, it just came up in conversation as part of a wider discussion on the industry, which included thoughts on the state of Japanese gaming publishers, destiny and watchdogs, as well as why nearly every online game has teething troubles at launch. (and why martain o donnel left bungie!)

 

The specific bit starts at 5 hours and 43 minutes in, theres no need to listen to it all! And the rest of it is unlikely to be to manys tastes

Some language may be NSFW, but is on the whole respectful discussion and does not condone violence or threats against anyone  :mellow:

Also a bit pedantic at times so be patient

 

http://www.hitbox.tv/video/287961

 

 

If you want to hear his whole thing he first starts speaking at about 4 hours and 25 minutes

 

 

 

Now many of his opionions may be controversial, he is pro many industry DLC practices, and personaly enjoys working long hours in the game industry, and its up to you if you belive him or not, but the idea that the ending backlash used up so much of EA's resources through PR campaigns, lawyers for the advertising standards complaints ect that they could not complete the full vision of which he did not give details, but basicly the game did ship without a propper ending, and it would have come out after all the DLC. He blames the gaming press for stiring up trouble even before release with inaccurate claims about the whole cost of certain packages, and then for inflaming the situtation, even ostensibly defending the company with "Entitled Gamers type stuff" actualy did more harm than good. Specific things that might have been different would have been a much better representation of your final forces, like Arias mercs showing up,  from the DLC ect. Does not say if the extended cut type thing had to re write the story, or if what we got was a much less technicaly impressive version.

 

 

Personaly if true its not exactly an exoneration for bioware, the game had some other issues and as many said at the time, meant the game shiped without a ending, and ammounted to collasal tease, only referenced by one tweet before release saying "hold on to your game forrever" and also relied to DLC sales to finish the game. But from what he's saying the whole controversy threw a larger spanner through biowares works than many might have realised.

 

Now after listening to his whole lot, and the context in which he was introduced I belive him to be a real industry worker, though of course his hersay and opinions about the situation could be far far wrong.



#2
BigglesFlysAgain

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Lol I can see how that might be a valid opionion... You do have to see things from others side occasionly, I'm not out to hug EA though.

 

Though you do have to think how working in the industry is different to consuming the industries products

 

 

Care to point me to a larger discussion about it?



#3
TurianRebel212

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I see that they need to make a profit and that Budget Constraits and release windows are important. 

 

 

What I do not understand with EA and BioWare is how they can market a game (For example BF4) as working and really functional and then release a broken product. 

 

 

The same thing happened with ME3. It was marketed as a game that all the decisions you have made would really impact the end. And..... Pick a color and watch some scrolls, lol. 


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#4
Kantr

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Bioware had nothing to do marketing BF4 and the CEO of EA said that it was a mistake.

 

Likely the leak didnt help, but we're unlikely to hear the full story behind the reason for the ending. What with so much controversy around it and the bad feelings on both sides.



#5
TurianRebel212

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I know BioWare had nothing to do with BF4... Duh, holy fvck. duh. That was just another example of EA shilling and overall EA suck fest. 

 

Now here's an Exact ME3 related example-

 

 Hudson and Walters said that choices would matter in profound and compelling way's at the end of ME3. BEFORE release. They said that before release when the game was being marketed and the EA Hype Train was in full motion. It was, I think after E3 2011. 

 

 

 

And.... Well, how'd that one work out. 



#6
Ranadiel Marius

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Bioware had nothing to do marketing BF4 and the CEO of EA said that it was a mistake.

 

Likely the leak didnt help, but we're unlikely to hear the full story behind the reason for the ending. What with so much controversy around it and the bad feelings on both sides.

How did the leak hurt? Did they go, "Oops someone leaked the first draft of the plot. Whelp we better not make any additional edits to it since they are now all expecting it to be exactly that." Or are you talking about a different leak than the plot leak that has the major points of the ending pretty much exactly as it turned out?



#7
Kantr

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There was an earlier leak wasnt there? Then they changed the story and so forth.



#8
Display Name Owner

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If this is true and I've understood it right - and I'm not even sure I have understood it right because it seems too ridiculous - this is a really, very stupid way to go about things. Is he actually saying the plan was to release a shoddy incomplete ending, then a string of DLC, then an actual proper ending months down the line? And the idea was that fans would be fine with the shoddy ending and be happy to keep buying DLC and doing playthroughs and then be pleasantly surprised to have been blessed with an actual ending? Which no doubt wouldn't have been free of charge.

 

Haha, oh dear. Still, I'm sceptical about this.


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#9
BigglesFlysAgain

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If this is true and I've understood it right - and I'm not even sure I have understood it right because it seems too ridiculous - this is a really, very stupid way to go about things. Is he actually saying the plan was to release a shoddy incomplete ending, then a string of DLC, then an actual proper ending months down the line? And the idea was that fans would be fine with the shoddy ending and be happy to keep buying DLC and doing playthroughs and then be pleasantly surprised to have been blessed with an actual ending? Which no doubt wouldn't have been free of charge.

 

Haha, oh dear. Still, I'm sceptical about this.

 

Yes thats my understanding too, it would explain a lot of the wierd things, but I still think it would have been a really awful move on their part


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#10
Vazgen

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It took three years to make Mass Effect 2 and two years to make Mass Effect 3. The game was definitely rushed. Remember how it was delayed once? You don't develop a final game in the trilogy with all those possible choices in less time than the second installment of the trilogy.


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#11
Daemul

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It took three years to make Mass Effect 2 and two years to make Mass Effect 3. The game was definitely rushed. Remember how it was delayed once? You don't develop a final game in the trilogy with all those possible choices in less time than the second installment of the trilogy.

 

Yep. Bioware clearly didn't have time to finish the game in the way they wan't to, and you can tell that the game from Thessia onwards and rushed, it's missing so much. So yeah, I can buy that they would have released the full ending later down the line, the extended cut is likely a much less impressive version of what they wanted to give us. 

 

@TurianRebel Calm down with your EA hate mate, you're acting as if they killed your family. 


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#12
Ranadiel Marius

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There was an earlier leak wasnt there? Then they changed the story and so forth.

There were two leaks. Both had the same ending give or take some dialogue. There were differences between them such as in the earlier leak Javik being the catalyst and Aria's quest being in the main game, but ending was consistent as far as I recall.

#13
Farangbaa

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@TurianRebel Calm down with your EA hate mate, you're acting as if they killed your family. 

 

Hah. That's pretty much the norm when talking about EA, Mac Walters. Casey Hudson or Mass Effect.

 

Which I find preposterous btw, it's just a damn game.


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#14
von uber

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The amount of toxicity, bile, hatred and vile behaviour around games at the moment is absolutely depressing.

It seems to be originating from a very small, but vocal, group of people and is, to me, absolutely staggeringly unacceptable in its message and actions.

The vitriol aimed at EA and Bioware is a minor example of this, confined to angry rants (I am not aware of anyone threatening to shoot any bioware developers as of yet) but it makes me, at the age of nearly 35 and hopefully having a future gamer to bring up in March, very saddened by the future if it carries on like this.

Especially if I have a daughter.
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#15
Obadiah

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Saying that the ME3 ending was "rushed" just shows a lack of understand of business model in s/w (or any of industry) development, and the importance of deadlines. Without them, we wouldn't get a games or products at all. In video game development story gets cut all the time to make deadlines. That doesn't mean everyone on the team was not on board with the decision to make a cut. It doesn't mean that the extended story would have given us whatever it is we think was lacking.

@von uber
Sad to say that even a Lobby (Off Topic) thread about toxicity and hatred in the gaming community is probably doomed to be locked on this site because of its inflammatory nature.
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#16
BigglesFlysAgain

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Yes I would agree things are very crazy online atm, but I don't want to steer this thread toward discussing that, I'm more considering if the me3 fan backlash was ultimately misguided rather than plain stupid. There were plenty of positive things about it and many peaceful means of showing discontent though it did also get crazily heated too.



#17
Obadiah

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I want to say that "Yes" the backlash hindered development of DLC and the full vision, since it probably alienated a lot of the devs who would have implemented that vision, BUT, it is also true that unless you start causing a rucus breaking ****, people with authority or power tend to ignore you in favor of some other agenda.

I don't have a problem too much with the escalation of criticism and vitriol, I more have a problem with the seeming inability of the gaming community to de-escalate when that behavior ceases to be useful.

And it ceased being useful about 3 months after the release when messaging from EA/Bioware was clearly being rigidly controlled to "handle" the community.
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#18
von uber

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On the comments made by developer I suspect a certain amount of saying what people want to hear is involved.

@Obadiah I think it depends what escalation you refer to; angry posts are acceptable but when they steer into the realms of threatening violence, rape and exposing people's home addresses then I think you'll agree that that is an issue.

#19
angol fear

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On the comments made by developer I suspect a certain amount of saying what people want to hear is involved.

@Obadiah I think it depends what escalation you refer to; angry posts are acceptable but when they steer into the realms of threatening violence, rape and exposing people's home addresses then I think you'll agree that that is an issue.

 

No, angry post aren't acceptable. Never.


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#20
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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Yes thats my understanding too, it would explain a lot of the wierd things, but I still think it would have been a really awful move on their part

 

Yeah.. it kind of makes sense.. but it's a dumb strategy from the get go, if true.

 

Whatever the case, it seems that DAI is being developed differently. And I'm grateful. They have the time and resources to get it right, whatever it turns out to be.

 

Thanks for sharing



#21
Farangbaa

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I know BioWare had nothing to do with BF4... Duh, holy fvck. duh. That was just another example of EA shilling and overall EA suck fest. 

 

Now here's an Exact ME3 related example-

 

 Hudson and Walters said that choices would matter in profound and compelling way's at the end of ME3. BEFORE release. They said that before release when the game was being marketed and the EA Hype Train was in full motion. It was, I think after E3 2011. 

 

 

 

And.... Well, how'd that one work out. 

 

 

Yes, and Shadow of Mordor was marketed as an RPG, which is just hilarious. You're not 5 years old, are you? PR talk, advertising and all that should with be taken with a grain of salt, or a mountain of salt.

 

To get back to Shadow of Morder: anyone who saw one of the many 1 hour long gameplay sessions that were released on multiple sites and youtube before release of the game should've know the RPG aspect were minimal, at best. Yet people were still whining it wasn't a 'true' RPG.

 

It baffles me, really.



#22
Display Name Owner

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Alright, I've actually listened to it now. Feel like maybe I was a bit harsh in my other post, but still, I'm not getting why if this was the plan it wasn't just announced earlier? People are too stupid to pick up hints like this, or I am at least. If I see a rushed ending, I assume the ending was rushed, end of. Especially since ME3 came out much sooner than expected and had already been delayed once.

 

I mean, I don't have a problem with DLC, but only so far as it provides extra content. Tbh I'm not keen on the idea of getting an incomplete story and paying to complete it, assuming the true ending DLC would have been at a cost. But Mass Effect has been one of the very few series that's had me willing to pay for extra content, usually I ignore DLC altogether. So I might well have been able to go along with this plan, though I'd hate to see studios make a habit of it. It's a pity, I'd have rather had a better ending than Citadel. Oh well. 

 

He's probably got a point on mob mentality. I won't lie, reading other people's complaints on these forums brings faults to my attention that I might have ignored beforehand and then I start fixating on them. Even the ending, I was disappointed, but it wasn't until I started really perusing the forums they actively nagged me. I'm a complete sheep, man, what can I say? Still, I think wanting people to just say "kay" after the original endings is expecting too much. People aren't that saintly and the original ending wasn't that good. That final message saying "Well done, you beat the game. Now play again and buy some DLC" didn't help either.

 

Shame. Gives me more hope for ME4 though.


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#23
Han Shot First

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I'm not sure if even another year in the oven would have resulted in a game with a more satisfying ending. The greatest problem with Mass Effect 3's finale wasn't in content seeming a bit rushed, though that was an issue, but with the poorly written finale. Most of the controversy surrounding the release of Mass Effect 3 wasn't focused on the gameplay of Priority: Earth, it was focused on that final conversation with the Catalyst and the three ending choices. Give Mass Effect 3 another year in development and you likely get the same ending. Versions of that ending were present in early script leaks. The only difference would be a slightly more polished game leading up to it and perhaps an expanded Priority: Earth that reflected the forces you had gathered.

 

I don't think there was any way to avoid an ending controversy short of Casey Hudson & Mac Walters deciding not to write the ending without peer review or input from the other writers.



#24
SilJeff

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I do think a Priority Earth that is more polished, featured your war assets at work, and featured you actually commanding people ala the Suicide Mission would have reduced some of the hate towards the ending


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#25
themikefest

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Having 12 more months for ME3 wouldn't of hurt. How much of a differenve that time would've made? Don't know. That time has come and gone.