163 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

Bethesda Game Studios games have longer development times than 99.9% of games, and yet they're buggier than most of them. WTF?!
 
I still love Elder Scrolls and Fallout, but bah gawd, they gotta find a way to get rid of the bugs, there's always a game breaking one just around the corner which will force you to restart from the beginning and make you lose hundreds of hours of game time.

That sort of game is a lot more complicated than the likes of Mass Effect though, so more bugs are to be expected. Just compare the size of the save files to give an indication of the number of things that it needs to keep track of.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

sorry the transcript has not appeared been very busy. hopefuly I can return to the idea at some point in the future.

 

 

I see discussion has moved to the funding and economics of games, the dev came back on the stream the other day to talk about just that, the video has not been uploaded yet as they will have to censor / edit something out which I won't go into, but its an interesting listen and has less baggage than the other video and I'll link it when it comes up. He only spoke generaly but funding is very tightly controlled and not just handed over with a vague hope the game will come out well, many developers use or repurpose "stock assets" shared between studios, and creating brand new things, like creatures is rare because of the "risk" invovled, his example being a  western dragon, making some marvalous creature with 7 wings and feathers is risky because it it might not work out as planned, and there are no existing examples of textures to use as a guide then all the effort on it is wasted and money gone down the drain,(which of course means less unique games for us) and the more artistic concept of stuff being too alien for the audience to connect with. The same being said for game mechanics, hence why so many shooters... Risk is, er risky! and also that the marketing budget for AAA games is often the same again as development costs.

 

 

I hope more comes of him as its an interesting perspective on developer fan divide, he thinks people should apologise for getting mad over me3! (and yes some people went too far, but I think by and large people were civil) And given he claims to have never worked for EA the controversy clearly got the rest of the industries attention.

 

A discussion about spin and overcommunity management creating too high expecations of what devs can reasonably accomplish would be interesting, as while people like him love their work they are still creating products, and trying to hide that too much probably does not help in the long run.

[CronoDragoon]

This is nonsense. All it would have taken was a simple cryptic "OR IS IT THE END?" tweet from BioWare and hardcore fans (while gritting their teeth at the idea of having to buy the real ending as DLC) would have calmed down because at least their Shepard's story wasn't going to end like THAT.

 

This is wishful thinking. The Patrick Weekes "post" on the PA forums is much more credible.

[CronoDragoon]

Nope. A lot of the stuff he claims was cut from the game wasn't cut. It's there, always was.

 
And?
 

In addition, there are several videos proving there was more than one writer doing the ending. From what I recall, John Dombrow came up with the idea of the slow walking during the final mission, not Mac Walters. The Catalyst scene was discussed by [/font][/color][/background][url=https://www.youtube....BIzp4c&t=43m46s]two writers

I'd be interested to see that info if you have it. I'm also not sure what the video is supposed to be showing me? They are talking about the Catalyst scene but no one says who worked on the ending.

[Daemul]

Hold on, people actually believe that fake ass forum post was actually Patrick Weekes?



God some of you guys are gullible.

[ElitePinecone]

The two people talking (Chris and Sylvia) are both writers, who were part of doing the end sequence. That pretty much proves there was more than Mac and Casey working on the ending, thus debunking the Patrick Weekes post you found.

 

No?

 

They never said they worked on it. They're just talking about it, as writers. I'm sure the entire writing team discussed the ending to death within the company after March 2012, that doesn't mean any of them actually contributed to its creation. 

 

Why would one of the ordinary writers have worked on the ending, anyway? In the past the big scenes have always been handled by the lead writers (Drew and Mac), and Casey seemed to have a personal interest in how the story concluded. Bioware's writing system doesn't even work like that - levels are handled by one writer, and characters are split between the entire team. Every character in the ending sequence (Anderson, TIM, Shepard, the Catalyst) was written by Mac.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

Was it never confirmed or denied beyond the community manager post denying it rather too quickly and conclusively?

 

Either way, I think people at the time would have rather have pointed the blame at one hate figure who screwed it up, rather than believe everything went according to plan and it still turned out the way it did.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Hold on, people actually believe that fake ass forum post was actually Patrick Weekes?



God some of you guys are gullible.

 

It's more believable than someone hacking his account just so they could talk about ME3s ending.

[chris2365]

It's more believable than someone hacking his account just so they could talk about ME3s ending.

 

Wasn't it proven that the account was his though? He had been using it previously, and everyone knew it was him.  Like you said, more likely that it was his personal decision rather than a hacker. And chances are by giving him some sort of consequence, it would validate what he said as being true. So they just quietly slipped it under the rug and never spoke of it again.

[Han Shot First]

Hold on, people actually believe that fake ass forum post was actually Patrick Weekes?



God some of you guys are gullible.

 

Uh...that was actually a personal account that Patrick Weekes used.

 

His job was in jeopardy. Of course he claimed his account was hacked. Look at what happened to Inon Zur for publicly criticizing the short development time Dragon Age 2 had. Any time you publicly criticize an employer, you risk being out of that job.

 

That Weekes actually posted that from an account he was known to use, is a lot more plausible than his account being hacked and it being posted by someone else. That Bioware never denied some of the accusations made in that post are also telling, like for example that the ending was written solely by Mac Walters & Casey Hudson. No one ever stepped forward to claim that wasn't true.

[chris2365]

Uh...that was actually a personal account that Patrick Weekes used.

 

His job was in jeopardy. Of course he claimed his account was hacked. Look at what happened to Inon Zur for publicly criticizing the short development time Dragon Age 2 had. Any time you publicly criticize an employer, you risk being out of that job.

 

That's true. Though Inon Zur might have been cut for reasons about wanting to take the game in a new direction sound-wise, his comments probably didn't help his case, though they were valid. Patrick Weekes was a different case. We were in the broiling aftermath of the endings, and fans wanted answers. When he provided them, they made sense, not only in it's content, but also the fact it came from his account, as far as we know. Any sort of consequence or punishment on the part of EA/Bioware would have been seen as a way to hide the truth, and since he also happened to be one of the likable writers of ME3 due to what he wrote (Mordin, goodbye scenes in the end, etc.), they slipped it under the rug.

 

Here's a link of the story if you guys want more details: http://www.gamefront...lam-the-ending/

 

Ugh, looking at these old articles brings bad memories. Sad to see how stuff was back then. I think we all could have handled it a bit better. Bioware actually coming out and speaking to us would have been a nice step, maybe have some of the writers explain their choices in threads here on the forums. We, the fans, being so negative and making demands of the company as if we owned them and had a right to everything. 

 

Anyways, ''let the ghosts sleep'' is what I would recommend.

[Iakus]

Ugh, looking at these old articles brings bad memories. Sad to see how stuff was back then. I think we all could have handled it a bit better. Bioware actually coming out and speaking to us would have been a nice step, maybe have some of the writers explain their choices in threads here on the forums. We, the fans, being so negative and making demands of the company as if we owned them and had a right to everything. 

 

Anyways, ''let the ghosts sleep'' is what I would recommend.

 

The ghosts won't sleep until the next game comes out, and Bioware demonstrates what, if anything, they learned from the experience.

 

Because as you pointed out, many fans were (and still are )angry, and Bioware has been less than communicative about the whole issue.  Time may have quieted things down, but the original problems still persist.  Fences have not been mended, suspicion and hostility persist beneath the surface, even if the original energy was spent.

[chris2365]

The ghosts won't sleep until the next game comes out, and Bioware demonstrates what, if anything, they learned from the experience.

Because as you pointed out, many fans were (and still are )angry, and Bioware has been less than communicative about the whole issue. Time may have quieted things down, but the original problems still persist. Fences have not been mended, suspicion and hostility persist beneath the surface, even if the original energy was spent.

That may be true, but the amount of fans that will actually be in the state you describe may be smaller than we think.

From all the fans that were affected by the endings: some will have finally made peace with it and not care how the franchise moves on (some people just want their sci-fi/Mass Effect fix). Some fans will have just given up on the franchise and moved on to other games/franchises, and never return.

Other fans will be casuals/new to the franchise, so they will stay fresh and not care about what came before (referring to those people who just play a game 'cause it looks cool and fun).

And then we're left with us: a small fraction of the overall fan base, the hardcore fans. Even on these forums, we are divided on our opinions about the ending. Some like it, some don't care and have made their peace, and some are still disappointed and are waiting to see what direction the next game will take (completely justified, I might add)

So what are we left with? A fraction of a fraction of the fanbase who will care about the future of the franchise and will voice their concerns when they unveil the next game. And that is entirely fair. Just don't expect it to be anything near what the backlash to the ending was. I expect some debating and discussion on these forums, and not much else.

[Iakus]

Yeah, but it's a fraction of a very large fraction.  Counting on the apathy of abase who just want a scifi fix and trading new fans for old sounds like a losing proposition in the long term.  Smacks of running a franchise into the ground, squeezing all the money they can out if it before discarding the husk.

 

That's the problem with the Mass Effect franchise:  in creating this ending, this unpopular ending, any sequel will have to acknowledge it at some level.  Even if it's acknowledged by carefully avoiding it.  it's going to touch a sore spot.  DA2's lack of popularity can be gotten around simply by doing better next time.  Mass Effect has been saddled with this albatross and there's no getting around it.

[chris2365]

Yeah, but it's a fraction of a very large fraction.  Counting on the apathy of abase who just want a scifi fix and trading new fans for old sounds like a losing proposition in the long term.  Smacks of running a franchise into the ground, squeezing all the money they can out if it before discarding the husk.

 

This is where all this ''fresh start'', ''moving away from the original trilogy'', and ''going somewhere new'' comes in. Bioware, as well as us, understands that the fanbase is fragmented and broken, but the demand for a new entry in the franchise is still there. The only way they can rebuild is to get new fans to replace the old ones lost. Some of those looking for their sci-fi fix, or even the casuals might eventually turn into hardcore fans, and then we'll return where we started. Weren't we all new fans at some point? Told by our friends or grabbed a game on the bargain bin that everyone on the internet was amazed by this new and wonderful world? The same can happen again, assuming they make the great games we're used to. New fans and old fans come and go all the time. Though DA2 and ME3 might have caused a change in the balance for now, with new and sucessful games they can return to where they were. They aren't trying to squeeze every last cent out of the franchise. They're trying to lay new groundwork to start a new generation of Bioware games.

 

That's the problem with the Mass Effect franchise:  in creating this ending, this unpopular ending, any sequel will have to acknowledge it at some level.  Even if it's acknowledged by carefully avoiding it.  it's going to touch a sore spot.  DA2's lack of popularity can be gotten around simply by doing better next time.  Mass Effect has been saddled with this albatross and there's no getting around it.

 

Fair enough, it will have to be dealt with at some point and it will be a sore spot. I just don't think it will be as big an issue as you make it to be. Sure, some of the hardcore fans of the trilogy will never be happy with the way the franchise will move on, but look at it this way:

 

Say Bioware puts out the Next Mass Effect and it's a really good game, a GOTY masterpiece. Only issue, it uses a canonized ME3 ending (say Destroy). How much backlash and lost sales can you honestly expect to get? There will be a new blood of people who will fall in love with the game, and a significant one (just look at ME2 and how much it benefited from it's status as a GOTY candidate). They will flood the forums with praise and tell Bioware how awesome they are, because they never knew the franchise before, or never cared about what happened before. Consider this:

 

 

(Pic is from research on casual vs hardocre gamers : http://www.gamasutra...al_.php?print=1)

 

As you can see, the ones who will care about what happen to the future of the franchise are a small minority. When the concerns of ME3's endings were known, it was from many people, from different groups, and even I can see that. Even the casual fans complained. Now, with the EC, the fact that some have moved on, and the passage of time healing some people's wounds, and the fact that an entire new crowd of casuals will be playing (the numbers don't lie, just look at the graph and see how much a proportion they make up of the total player base for a game), can you honestly expect that the reaction to whatever decisions Bioware makes regarding to the future games and the endings to be anything near ''ME3 endings'' level and cripple the franchise going forward?

 

Will there be complaints? Yes, and those who do make them are entirely justified

Will there be some fans who are disappointed about the direction Bioware takes for the future of the ME franchise, especially regarding the influence of the endings? Absolutely, and even Bioware realises that.

Will the endings be as crippling to the future of franchise as you say or create another big backlash for any future sequels? Not a chance

[Iakus]

Yes, there will be complaints.  Nothing can stop that.  Heck there'd be complaints even if ME3 was the smashing success tehy wanted it to be.  But I think you are underestimating the effect the endings will have.  The rage and the backlash were huge.  "Unprecedented" was used.  That doesn't just go away.  Even if the energy fades, memories remain.  ME3 will be "that game where the ending sucked"  When the name "Mass Effect" gets attatched to a new game, you can bet he image of Shepard walking into an explosion as a ghostly child looks on will be on a lot of people's minds.

 

I mean, the endings will come up in interviews, in articles, and such.  ME3 will be brought up constantly.  People will tweet questions on how the protagonist will be handled.  There will be debates, arguments, and speculation here on teh forums.  Just like "That Cave" and recycled environments in DA2 get tossed out a lot when DAI articles come out.  Of course, they can demonstrate how DAI's environments are bigger and more varied.  It's harder to demonstrate ending differences without spoiling a storyline. 

[Vazgen]

@Iakus, will you give ME: Next a chance having only a general idea of the timeline, player's character and a brief overview of the story? If gameplay is appealing to you in trailers, of course.

[chris2365]

Yes, there will be complaints.  Nothing can stop that.  Heck there'd be complaints even if ME3 was the smashing success tehy wanted it to be.  But I think you are underestimating the effect the endings will have.  The rage and the backlash were huge.  "Unprecedented" was used.  That doesn't just go away.  Even if the energy fades, memories remain.  ME3 will be "that game where the ending sucked"  When the name "Mass Effect" gets attatched to a new game, you can bet he image of Shepard walking into an explosion as a ghostly child looks on will be on a lot of people's minds.

 

I mean, the endings will come up in interviews, in articles, and such.  ME3 will be brought up constantly.  People will tweet questions on how the protagonist will be handled.  There will be debates, arguments, and speculation here on teh forums.  Just like "That Cave" and recycled environments in DA2 get tossed out a lot when DAI articles come out.  Of course, they can demonstrate how DAI's environments are bigger and more varied.  It's harder to demonstrate ending differences without spoiling a storyline. 

 

It's true that the memories will never go away, and you make valid points. They will be referenced, and brought up, and abused as reasons the franchise shouldn't continue. it's just that I know, deep down, this franchise has a future. It will be tough, it will have to deal with numerous constraints, with criticisms from past games, etc. The potential is still there though, and if Bioware focuses on making an excellent Mass Effect game, and then another, and then another (not abusing or milking the franchise of course ), then they'll be on the right track to fixing their reputation and that of the Mass Effect franchise.

 

There can be more moments like looking at ME1's title screen in awe, like seeing our main character survive the odds in a Suicide Mission, fall in love with other characters, and explore wonderful and mysterious worlds with Uncharted Worlds in the background. This franchise can still deliver that, I know it

 

To quote from the darkest moment of the trilogy, for fans and Bioware alike: ''You have hope, more than you think''

[Iakus]

@Iakus, will you give ME: Next a chance having only a general idea of the timeline, player's character and a brief overview of the story? If gameplay is appealing to you in trailers, of course.

I will "give ME: Next a chance" if it's plot allows me to imagine my own ending to ME3; that Shepard and synthetics survived and the Reapers are gone (dead or departed).  Ideally without glowing green eyes on everyone.

 

It takes a lot more than gameplay and trailers to get me excited about a game.

[Iakus]

It's true that the memories will never go away, and you make valid points. They will be referenced, and brought up, and abused as reasons the franchise shouldn't continue. it's just that I know, deep down, this franchise has a future. It will be tough, it will have to deal with numerous constraints, with criticisms from past games, etc. The potential is still there though, and if Bioware focuses on making an excellent Mass Effect game, and then another, and then another (not abusing or milking the franchise of course ), then they'll be on the right track to fixing their reputation and that of the Mass Effect franchise.

 

There can be more moments like looking at ME1's title screen in awe, like seeing our main character survive the odds in a Suicide Mission, fall in love with other characters, and explore wonderful and mysterious worlds with Uncharted Worlds in the background. This franchise can still deliver that, I know it

 

To quote from the darkest moment of the trilogy, for fans and Bioware alike: ''You have hope, more than you think''

Sure Mass Effect probably has a future.  But it can take a lot to bring it back.  Look at how long it took to make another Deus Ex game, for example. 

 

And sure, the images you bring up are good memories.  But at the same time, look at where that path led.  Heck, that "you have hope, more than you think" is followed immediately by that blight upon the franchise.  that "Hope" became the very backlash that taints the story.

[Vazgen]

I will "give ME: Next a chance" if it's plot allows me to imagine my own ending to ME3; that Shepard and synthetics survived and the Reapers are gone (dead or departed).  Ideally without glowing green eyes on everyone.

 

It takes a lot more than gameplay and trailers to get me excited about a game.

So, if the game turns out to be good, and you have both user and official reviews and trailers all praising the game but it has ME: Keep system and shapes the galaxy based on your choices in the EC endings. You won't play it?

[Bakgrind]

 

To quote from the darkest moment of the trilogy, for fans and Bioware alike: ''You have hope, more than you think''

 

To offer a quote about hope from a line in the series where it all starts to going wrong for a lot of us folk only reinforces the fact that there isnt much hope at all. Just saying. I mean the game could of just ended with Shepard and Anderson  " Best seats in the house " comments  instead of the psychobabble of the starkid and been just as satisfying.

[chris2365]

 

Sure Mass Effect probably has a future.  But it can take a lot to bring it back.  Look at how long it took to make another Deus Ex game, for example. 

 

And sure, the images you bring up are good memories.  But at the same time, look at where that path led.  Heck, that "you have hope, more than you think" is followed immediately by that blight upon the franchise.  that "Hope" became the very backlash that taints the story.

 

What makes you think they'll take a path that leads to a bad ending again though? They were able to stay on path for about 99.5 % of the trilogy (barring some minor errors/missteps), and now with a new dev team trying to start anew and erase the memories of the previous games. Bioware has proven they can make solid endings. Kotor and DAO come to mind at the moment. Just because you miss 1 out of 10 does not mean that the rest of the games are doomed. The fact that they even made 10+ games shows they have experience in that sort of thing.