Aller au contenu

Photo

Do you cheat?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
57 réponses à ce sujet

#26
MagicalMaster

MagicalMaster
  • Members
  • 2 000 messages
I can see why you might want to play the OC on the hardest setting.  Once you have played that module in double figures, you know what to expect, and prepare accordingly.

 

When it comes to modules that you are playing for the first time, this hardest setting can be a tad sticky. 

 

It wasn't the OC, and I was testing to see what the setting even did.  And the "hardest" setting is simply completely stupid -- it's insane at low levels (can easily get one or two shot) and completely irrelevant at higher levels.  It doesn't actually make it harder.

 

I mean, go play HotU and I doubt you'd ever even notice the "hardest" setting.

 

There is no such thing as "cheating" per se, there is what is allowed, and what is not allowed,

 

##DebugMode 1

## SetSTR 100

## SetDEX 100

## SetCON 100

## SetINT 100

## SetWIS 100

## SetCHA 100

##DebugMode 0

 

...that's "cheating," per se.



#27
MrZork

MrZork
  • Members
  • 939 messages
LOL! Let's not get into another semantics discussion over whether cheating is meaningfully possible in single-player games.

My read of the OP's intent by "cheating" is when people knowingly do things that the game/module designers wouldn't want them to do in order to give their toons an advantage. Obviously, there is no bright-line test for such things (unless someone is a mind reader), but I think most of us have a notion about it.

As it happens the OP's example of getting maximum HP at level up is one that most people don't really consider cheating anyway. I don't, since it anyone who knows what the "Cancel" button in the level summary screen does will know that it's possible to re-roll poor HP rolls. It's what I tend to do, even on PWs that don't have the max HP setting enabled, unless it's a slow level to re-do and I am in a party with people waiting.

Meanwhile, I make plenty of changes to many modules I play. Sometimes, it gives my toons an edge and sometimes it makes things harder for them. For example I almost always have Moskwa's PnP Tenser's in my override, which is certainly more useful to most mages than Bioware's, even though not that many module builders include it (I suspect most don't know about it). And, I have modified many encounters in modules I replay to make them more difficult, including re-writing a good chunk of the OnEnter scripts in Sands of Fate to buff the encounter spawns. So, I suppose some of those changes are an advantage and some are a disadvantage to my toons.

But, mostly, my goal isn't to do either, but rather to make some aspect of gameplay more interesting. Or, at least, less tedious. If I think something I do furthers that goal, then I don't hesitate to do it.

#28
icywind1980

icywind1980
  • Members
  • 309 messages

Who effin cares how a person plays in a single player mod? When there's other people involved, that's something to consider, but I'm a personal fan of play however the hell you please as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else.


  • werelynx, SKIPPNUTTZ et Nick The Noodle aiment ceci

#29
MrZork

MrZork
  • Members
  • 939 messages
To be fair, I don't think anyone here has expressed any concern about moral aspects of "cheating" in SP games. The (unjustified, from what I could see) assumption that someone was making a moral judgement by using the term was one of the reasons such discussions were so unproductive in the past. Generally, it seemed like the topic was intended to be "Do you use X, Y, or Z techniques when you play (which are sometimes called cheating)?", but people got defensive as if the topic had been "Do you do X, Y, or Z, which makes you a cheater and a bad person?" The latter discussion, IMO, tend to be pointless in this venue.
  • Nick The Noodle aime ceci

#30
Nick The Noodle

Nick The Noodle
  • Members
  • 171 messages

Cheated today, by buying two items, instead of transferring my character directly from one module to its part 2. Appears to have made next to no difference, so I should not have done it.  Next time I won't.



#31
helpthisguyplease

helpthisguyplease
  • Members
  • 809 messages

It wasn't the OC, and I was testing to see what the setting even did.  And the "hardest" setting is simply completely stupid -- it's insane at low levels (can easily get one or two shot) and completely irrelevant at higher levels.  It doesn't actually make it harder.

 

I mean, go play HotU and I doubt you'd ever even notice the "hardest" setting.

 

 

##DebugMode 1

## SetSTR 100

## SetDEX 100

## SetCON 100

## SetINT 100

## SetWIS 100

## SetCHA 100

##DebugMode 0

 

...that's "cheating," per se.

I am pretty sure that is way over what the game can take after 50 I guess you have bugs there because is hard coded at cap that I think is 50. 



#32
MrZork

MrZork
  • Members
  • 939 messages
Most abilities seem to function pretty much as usual, even well over 50. (Many perfectly legal red dragon disciple builds can easily exceed 50 STR with items. Ditto for RDDs regarding INT, CHA, and WIS and elf and halflings with regard to DEX.) There is some point above which the game engine doesn't properly store or interpret ability scores and starts behaving bizarrely. I don't recall what that number is (probably 127 or 155, but it's been a long time), but I suspect that 100 may still work.

Regardless of whether those ability score numbers are all functional in the game, I think MM's point is that many would judge it to be cheating to set high ability scores by using the console. (One can debate that judgement, I suppose, but whether raising abilities to that degree is functional isn't the same issue as whether or not raising abilities is cheating.)

#33
Jerkules17

Jerkules17
  • Members
  • 147 messages

Do what ever it takes to win...well that's how I go. :bandit: Still if it bothers you then don't do it. If the computer/enemy/etc is super cheap then get even,unless that's a crime. :blink:  :police:


  • icywind1980 aime ceci

#34
MagicalMaster

MagicalMaster
  • Members
  • 2 000 messages

LOL! Let's not get into another semantics discussion over whether cheating is meaningfully possible in single-player games.

 

If saying "break the rules provided by the author" makes people feel better, great.  I mean, I don't really care if you're playing Aielund for the 8th time and start with a level 5 character just so you can speed through it to see the story, it doesn't make you some sort of depraved morally bankrupt person, but it's still cheating.  Not a moral judgment, just a name for a behavior.

 

Who effin cares how a person plays in a single player mod? When there's other people involved, that's something to consider, but I'm a personal fan of play however the hell you please as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else.

 

Well, I put a lot of time into balancing/fine tuning my modules.  If someone plays my Siege of the Heavens, for example, and decides to spawn in custom gear or boost their stats, then they're throwing off the intended difficulty.  And that will then color their impressions and might affect how they view the module and review it on the vault.  I remember WebShaman talking about how he wanted to use the OMHS or whatever (henchman system) to have henchmen in the module (when none exist) which would have been a disaster due to specific aspects of the module...and if he then rates the module negatively as a result that's hardly fair to me.

 

I am pretty sure that is way over what the game can take after 50 I guess you have bugs there because is hard coded at cap that I think is 50. 

 

You can go up to 127 in stats, bugs start happening once you hit 128 or above in stats/AB/AC.  And encumbrance bugs out at 101 strength.



#35
Shadooow

Shadooow
  • Members
  • 4 468 messages

You can go up to 127 in stats, bugs start happening once you hit 128 or above in stats/AB/AC.  And encumbrance bugs out at 101 strength.

you can go up to 255, on high magic PW I used this number quite frequently to raise AB, and btw, community patch fixes the encumbrance bug



#36
icywind1980

icywind1980
  • Members
  • 309 messages

Well, I put a lot of time into balancing/fine tuning my modules.  If someone plays my Siege of the Heavens, for example, and decides to spawn in custom gear or boost their stats, then they're throwing off the intended difficulty.  And that will then color their impressions and might affect how they view the module and review it on the vault.  I remember WebShaman talking about how he wanted to use the OMHS or whatever (henchman system) to have henchmen in the module (when none exist) which would have been a disaster due to specific aspects of the module...and if he then rates the module negatively as a result that's hardly fair to me.

I just have to throw this out there - when you put up a mod for people to download than people are gonna do what they want with it. I for one don't give a crap about how the author intended for the mod to be played. If I don't like something about it,and it's in my power to change it, I'm gonna change it. Now of course I'm not gonna give the author a bad review because of something I changed in the module, I vote fair based on the mod as it was presented to me, and anyone who doesn't shouldn't be voting at all. But especially for games that disable base functions of the game like respawn. Screw the hell out of that. It's a game, not reality and I don't like my game to be over, just because some author decided that true to life rules are the only way to have fun.



#37
MagicalMaster

MagicalMaster
  • Members
  • 2 000 messages

you can go up to 255, on high magic PW I used this number quite frequently to raise AB, and btw, community patch fixes the encumbrance bug

 

Looks like the stats can indeed go up to 255, but AB going above 127 still bugs out like crazy (having 128 AB will display as a negative).  Seems like stats are unsigned and AB/AC is signed?  And yes, the encumbrance can be fixed easily with changes to the 2da, that's not hardcoded.

 

Now of course I'm not gonna give the author a bad review because of something I changed in the module, I vote fair based on the mod as it was presented to me, and anyone who doesn't shouldn't be voting at all.

 

Well, that's mighty decent of you, but I know of people who would try to change something in a mod without ever playing it and then judge that changed module.

 

But especially for games that disable base functions of the game like respawn. Screw the hell out of that. It's a game, not reality and I don't like my game to be over, just because some author decided that true to life rules are the only way to have fun.

 

I don't understand this part -- can't you just reload a save?  Or do you mean non-NWN games that have "ironman" or "hardcore" rules or whatever?



#38
MrZork

MrZork
  • Members
  • 939 messages

LOL! Let's not get into another semantics discussion over whether cheating is meaningfully possible in single-player games.

If saying "break the rules provided by the author" makes people feel better, great.  I mean, I don't really care if you're playing Aielund for the 8th time and start with a level 5 character just so you can speed through it to see the story, it doesn't make you some sort of depraved morally bankrupt person, but it's still cheating.  Not a moral judgment, just a name for a behavior.

And that's why I said "semantics", because I was hoping to avoid the "there is no such thing as SP cheating and there never can be" argument that crops up from time to time. And, I am not one of those people who uses the term "semantics" to dismiss someone's point about definitions. Semantics are important; it's often the death of an intelligent discussion when people can't agree on what the words they are using mean or when people can't see that they aren't really disagreeing, but just using the same word in different ways.


As to the topic of whether people make changes that result in playing a module in a way the author didn't intend or anticipate, I tend to want to get the experience that the author intended. But, I change things to make the game play the way I want unless I think that would break what the module is supposed to be (and I read the author's descriptions, READMEs, or other info on the module to have some idea what the module is about). The success that approach will be a matter of degrees rather than boolean. That is, the two approaches aren't entirely compatible (the author couldn't possibly have prepared his module for every customization any player might apply) but they aren't completely at odds either (there are plenty of changes that don't really significantly change the overall experience of the module). So, how much a customization I do and how much it changes the play experience will vary.

For instance, in the notes for Sands of Fate, the author mentions that he has written the secret door checks to give a bonus to PCs who have true sight. But, since it's easy to check if a toon has the true seeing effect from a spell and somewhat less easy to check if he has it from an item, he only checks for spell-based true sight. To his credit, he makes potions that give the spell effect pretty easy to get. However, if I decided that I don't want my toon who gets TS from an item property (perhaps from one of the several polymorphs that have it) to need to haul around more consumables, I might rewrite that script to do the additional item-property check and play the module that way. It is a change that the author knew was possible and didn't decide to incorporate, so I am not playing exactly the way he intended, but I don't think it ruins the module.

On the other hand, if I decided that my toon will have access to a custom spell that provides an aura with reciprocal damage shield of 2 x caster level divine damage and +20 shield AC versus evil, then that is making a change that will very significantly change the game play and balance for the module. That's not a change I would make.

And, in either case, if I were rating the module, I wouldn't complain that the module author didn't accommodate my desired customizations or that his module was too easy or too hard when it's likely some change I made had an impact on difficulty.

#39
icywind1980

icywind1980
  • Members
  • 309 messages

 

I don't understand this part -- can't you just reload a save?  Or do you mean non-NWN games that have "ironman" or "hardcore" rules or whatever?

I guess if I wanted to lose whatever progress I had made in the game until that point. If I respawn I lose exp and gold, not valuable RL time that I won't get back by playing it all over again. Sure I could just keep hitting the quick save key, but yeah there goes that precious immersion right out the window, when I keep having to worry about losing my progress.

 

But I don't actually have to ever worry about this. I know exactly how to put respawn options back in.



#40
Tarot Redhand

Tarot Redhand
  • Members
  • 2 674 messages

The question then has to be what about those modules where part of the immersion is brought about by the tension deliberately induced in say a ravenloft module, by the author turning off respawning?

 

TR



#41
SKIPPNUTTZ

SKIPPNUTTZ
  • Members
  • 80 messages

Looks like the stats can indeed go up to 255, but AB going above 127 still bugs out like crazy (having 128 AB will display as a negative).  Seems like stats are unsigned and AB/AC is signed?  And yes, the encumbrance can be fixed easily with changes to the 2da, that's not hardcoded.

 

MM,  AB overflow doesn't have any noticeable effects except in combat log display. My monk/wm with ~165ab prints -101 for first attack but I still maintain 95% hit chance. And as far as I  can tell the same can be said for overflowing skill checks in the combat log. Even with 127 concentration overflowing the result, it still passed the check internally. Saving throws on the other hand don't. Some quirky stuff with the upper boundaries of this game.

 

Does anyone know anything about what kind of anomalies can be produced by dealing too much damage cause the char im planning atm will probably be something around 30k-50k dmg from 1 attack?



#42
SKIPPNUTTZ

SKIPPNUTTZ
  • Members
  • 80 messages

you can go up to 255, on high magic PW I used this number quite frequently to raise AB, and btw, community patch fixes the encumbrance bug

 And for example if you have a leto'd char with 255 str and then use Bull's STR/Greater Bull's STR to raise it higher, what is the result?



#43
Tarot Redhand

Tarot Redhand
  • Members
  • 2 674 messages

@ SKIPPNUTTZ you do realise that the stats that you are talking about are greater (by a looong shot) than the vast majority of deities in D&D, don't you? And I'm not talking avatars here.

 

TR



#44
SKIPPNUTTZ

SKIPPNUTTZ
  • Members
  • 80 messages

Yes. Deities and D&D are overrated. Speakin @ those with education in the upper limits of aurora, or to others with similar experience in highend game worlds with level 1000+ servervault characters.



#45
Shadooow

Shadooow
  • Members
  • 4 468 messages

 And for example if you have a leto'd char with 255 str and then use Bull's STR/Greater Bull's STR to raise it higher, what is the result?

i dont know i used this only for NPCs i suppose there be another rollback with possible encumbrance issue


  • SKIPPNUTTZ aime ceci

#46
WhiZard

WhiZard
  • Members
  • 1 204 messages

Ability scores have an 8 bit looping range (from 0 to 255)

 

Total damage has a 14 bit looping range (from 0 to 16383)

 

I can give more numbers, but basically if the number for any stacking quantity gets too high, the game will cause it to loop.


  • SKIPPNUTTZ aime ceci

#47
WhiZard

WhiZard
  • Members
  • 1 204 messages

Saving throws on the other hand don't. Some quirky stuff with the upper boundaries of this game.

 

Saving throws do support higher numbers, however the display will give incorrect feedback (including success and failure messages), and MySavingThrow() will cap the number if used.



#48
SKIPPNUTTZ

SKIPPNUTTZ
  • Members
  • 80 messages

Total damage has a 14 bit looping range (from 0 to 16383)

 

I can give more numbers, but basically if the number for any stacking quantity gets too high, the game will cause it to loop.

 {y}

 

I need a good utility to read this game's files :) I always looked in leto at what the data types are stored as, but it doesnt have everything. Thanks! Gosh .... 16383 is small. Is this total allowed damage in a single application of a melee hit? Including crit multiplier.

 

Are onhitcastuniquepower or other similar onhit spell effects the only way to circumvent this limitation?



#49
WhiZard

WhiZard
  • Members
  • 1 204 messages

 {y}

 

I need a good utility to read this game's files :) I always looked in leto at what the data types are stored as, but it doesnt have everything. Thanks! Gosh .... 16383 is small. Is this total allowed damage in a single application of a melee hit? Including crit multiplier.

 

Are onhitcastuniquepower or other similar onhit spell effects the only way to circumvent this limitation?

 

Yeah 16383 is the highest single application of damage allowed, so critical hits will loop (typically causing less damage) if you are already doing close to this amount.  On-hits can of course cause a number of separate applications of damage.



#50
MagicalMaster

MagicalMaster
  • Members
  • 2 000 messages

For instance, in the notes for Sands of Fate, the author mentions that he has written the secret door checks to give a bonus to PCs who have true sight

 

Which is the kind of thing you'd expect to see in a patch/update for the module, so that's a bug fix if anything, certainly not cheating.  You weren't deliberately changing the game to give yourself an unfair advantage.

 

Sure I could just keep hitting the quick save key, but yeah there goes that precious immersion right out the window, when I keep having to worry about losing my progress.

 

I suppose I question whether magically having the ability to always respawn and continuously wear down an enemy in that manner is less immersion breaking.  To me it would be more immersion breaking.

 

Authors can also make specific challenges that are meant to be beaten in one go and not just respawned through to eliminate any sense of challenge -- and that's certainly not limited to NWN, you see it all the times in other RPGs (including Bioware games like the ME and DA series) along with things like MMO and some FPSes.

 

In one of my modules, for example, you need to beat a series of scripted bosses.  If you die on the boss fight, you can respawn and try again...but the boss also resets and heals to full HP and regains their abilities (because you died and they took the opportunity to rest/rejuvenate while you made your way back to them).

I take it that would severely frustrate/bother you?