298 réponses à ce sujet

[Girtuoklis]

For. There is no evil magic only evil mages

[Shahadem]

There's nothing innately evil about blood magic, but magic never seems to be used to accomplish positive goals except when being used to heal people.

 

I mean maybe if they started using blood magic to build skyskrapers or power giant generators or run some other type of infrastructure or something, but they don't.

[Tenno]

Never really used blood magic in any of the games, anything with blood manipulation seems quite sinister, though it doesn't categorize you as definetely evil by using it, i still saw it as bad mojo. Always fought against merril using it, calling her out on how destructive it was, and not helping her with her eluvian project, in the end she more or less saw the light. Still then there's anders, trying to convince him of being an abomination was impossible.. stupid and naive mage.

[Drasanil]

An interesting question:

 

1) I do not believe the Chantry story of the Blights beginning with Blood magic and Tevinter hubris. It's obviously a convenient, fabricated narrative.

 

That's not a question of believe or not believe. That one has been established considering Hawke meets one of the original magisters turned darkspawn who went into the golden city. 

[Keroko]

chance is chaotic and "fair" so the coin toss as you claim is a random chance of a action that could go anywhere

 

But why is it considered 'fair?' Why is it not evil?

 

Imagine you're playing Russian Roulette on someone else, with one of the bullets being a tazer and the other a regular bullet that kills you. Sure, one of them won't kill the guy and the other will, but does that make you any less evil just because there's a chance you won't kill the guy?

 

 

Fair enough...  this is indeed interesting, so I'll just post something now while it's still fresh in my mind.

 

I think that the main problem I have with mind control, and what differentiates it the most from fear, is the range of actions that a person using mind control can purposefully force another person to engage in.  Whether this involves murder, suicide, interrogation, emptying the safe in a noble's treasure vault, or some other behavior the person would otherwise object to, the sheer number of behaviors that a blood mage can force their victim to engage in elevates it above and beyond any other form of mental manipulation (rage, fear, paralysis, etc).  It is the ability to directly influence a person and fully enslave their mind and body that makes mental domination distasteful long before it is even put into practice.  This is why it is shunned by law enforcement whereas lesser forms of manipulation are not.  Well, one of the reasons anyway... I have no idea whether mind control would be banned if it could be done without the use of blood magic, but the fact that blood magic is the only means by which a person can take full control of the body and mind of another is a compelling reason for why the entire school is banned.

 

Don't underestimate the manipulative potential of fear. Waking nightmare was mechanically limited, but remember that Palpatine conquered the galaxy by manipulation people's fears.

 

It also serves to note that when your dice give you the 'target becomes an ally' result, it's little different from blood magic's blood control spell.

 

My thing is this... why even learn blood magic in the first place?  Why not just rely on normal interrogation methods?  Ones that don't involve blood sacrifices and demons, and that don't weaken the Veil?

 

Taking shortcuts often leads to ruin... this is especially true in the DA setting, so why risk it?

 

But in a medieval world like Dragon Age, "normal interrogation methods" means "torture until he's on the brink of death"

Blood magic is the more humane solution here. No huss, no fuss, just get a vial of blood and use a spell and make the guy tell you.

 

That's not a question of believe or not believe. That one has been established considering Hawke meets one of the original magisters turned darkspawn who went into the golden city. 

 

And the only reason he was prevented from laying siege to the world for a thousand years was because of blood magic, the only magic strong enough to seal him.

[CapivaRasgor]

One uses demons. One doesn't. Some spells also can only be done with blood. The difference is clearly there for anyone actually looking for it. Mages casting a spell on darkspawn blood to make the Taint spread quickly in a Warden isn't the same as a mage converting blood into power. As for phylacteries, never approved of those anyway, but for some reason I doubt that it uses demonic power if Templars allow it. :/

I'll concede to you regarding the Joining, as there is no evidence to prove my point and disprove yours.

As for phylacteries, they may not involve demonic power.. they could be a extrapolation of demonic knowledge on blood magic, something researched using demonic knowledge as a basis but ultimately being "mortal" in it's creation? (Dont know if I'm making sense)

[Keroko]

One uses demons. One doesn't. Some spells also can only be done with blood. The difference is clearly there for anyone actually looking for it. Mages casting a spell on darkspawn blood to make the Taint spread quickly in a Warden isn't the same as a mage converting blood into power. As for phylacteries, never approved of those anyway, but for some reason I doubt that it uses demonic power if Templars allow it. :/ 

 

Remember that Templars regularly consume a substance known to cause paranoia, obsession, and dementia. No Templar is ever fully sound of mind.

 

But yes, phylacteries likely don't use demons. Because blood magic itself doesn't inherently use demons. It's a magic that uses life force. It's s magic that makes it easier to summon demons, but demons are not required for its use.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There's nothing innately evil about blood magic, but magic never seems to be used to accomplish positive goals except when being used to heal people.

 

I mean maybe if they started using blood magic to build skyskrapers or power giant generators or run some other type of infrastructure or something, but they don't.

You understand that these skyscrapers and generators would LITERALLY be built and run on people's suffering, right?

[Keroko]

You understand that these skyscrapers and generators would LITERALLY be built and run on people's suffering, right?

 

Or the blood from the local butcher's shop.

 

There are many alternatives to murder and torture to acquire blood.

[Murphy]

Basically nobody should have that much power. 

[DKJaigen]

Such power need to be properly controlled. you take the best and most loyal mages and instruct them. This is important as bloodmagic needs to be controlled by the right authorities and the trained bloodmages  will be able to identify non sanctioned bloodmages. This is important as most mundanes are virtually blind to the dangers of bloodmagic or even any form of magic as they simply do not understand it. For example in ww2 the germans where shipping large amount of heavy water from norway to germany. Thanks to ultra the allies where completely aware of it but did nothing simply because not a single soldier or general had heard of the atomic bomb before that. Now its a good thing nazi germany collapsed before the A bomb was made but most generals at the time would have taken action if they where aware of the implications of the so called heavy water shipments.

 

Second part blood magic need to be studied is secure locations and its capabilities thoroughly explored . this is just as vital. going back to ww2 their where several American generals that wanted to use the Abomb to create beachheads for the invasion of japan. in other words they wanted to drop the bomb to destroy Japanese defences and then send their troops in. Insane of course , but these generals where not aware of radiation or what it could do to a human. they thought the a bomb was just a very big bomb back then.

[Keroko]

DKjaigen raises a good point about studying blood magic. Due to the current paranoia surrounding blood magic, everything surrounding its study is forbidden. However, this also leads to a halt in research for countering blood magic. Remember that when you went to the Circle, the Litany of Adralla was nowhere near anyone of your party's mind as a counter, until one bright mind who does know about it tries to hunt it down (and dies for his efforts).

 

Even though it is such a powerful counter to blood magic -to the point where I would ensure every Circle studies and memorizes it were I in charge-, due to the paranoia surrounding it it isn't properly studied. Who knows how far it could be improved if proper study was allowed.

[acid_rain82]

I am against Blood magic and I know that Blood magic does not make you evil. People just don't understand the ramification of blood magic. In last flight Isseya used blood magic on the Griffons so they would accept the Taint. This caused the corruption to spread to all the griffons. While she is using blood magic she could here the demons and by the end of the book she could feel fade demons clawing at the inside of her skull.

[raging_monkey]

But why is it considered 'fair?' Why is it not evil?
 
Imagine you're playing Russian Roulette on someone else, with one of the bullets being a tazer and the other a regular bullet that kills you. Sure, one of them won't kill the guy and the other will, but does that make you any less evil just because there's a chance you won't kill the guy?
.

"evil" is a mindset so i cant argue that. It considered fair due to the equal chance of death and both players of the game being aware of the odds. Unethical yes evil idk

[EmperorSahlertz]

Or the blood from the local butcher's shop.

 

There are many alternatives to murder and torture to acquire blood.

Animal blood cannot be used in Blood Magic, and blood spilled without suffering is highly inefficient.

[dragonflight288]

Animal blood cannot be used in Blood Magic, and blood spilled without suffering is highly inefficient.

 

Where is this stated in the lore?

[Keroko]

Animal blood cannot be used in Blood Magic, and blood spilled without suffering is highly inefficient.

 

Given that blood magic works just fine on animals in the games (only creatures without blood are immune), I'd like a source on the first. As for the second, it is strengthened by suffering, but that does not automatically translate to it being inefficient without.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Against.

Though I do believe that in some cases the end justifies the means, it simply doesn't work with most kinds of blood magic, but I'm not heartless, I won't kill every blood mage in my way; just those who aren't willing to repent. 

[Shiemi]

hmmm I think that they may be bad.. but also can be important too. eg: Connor was saved by Jowan in DAO, right? '-'

[rigron]

Magic is magic, the distinctions are made by living organic beings (humans, dwarfs, elves, etc) by everything is part of the magic itself. I prefer to study, understand and learn to dominate and even fight against something rather than ban something for the lulz and killing every student and practicioner of it without trying to understand it first. Also I personally think Blood magic is very useful, not only for achievening personal beneficst, but using it for the greater good too, it could be used to prevent a lot of wars in my opinion.

 

The same goes for spirits and demons: they are the same thing: Veil spirits, the humans (and other mortal races) are the ones who divides them between "good spirits" and "evil demons" without realizing they all are the same beings. I am the kind of person who prefers to study them and learn about them (I always let spirits and demons talk first before making a decision of bargaing with them or killing them) instead of killing them on sight.

 

hmmm I think that they may be bad.. but also can be important too. eg: Connor was saved by Jowan in DAO, right? '-'

 

Depending on your playthrought, you can make that happen. In a realistic or more common (not for the player, but for random people in the DA world) scenario where a mage don´t have the full Circle of Magic on his side Blood Magic would have been the only way to save the life and soul of a child from a demon trying to posses him yes, you have put a good example there.

[Br3admax]

Remember that Templars regularly consume a substance known to cause paranoia, obsession, and dementia. No Templar is ever fully sound of mind.

Yes, after it's refined and watered down. You can't water down demons. 

 

 

But yes, phylacteries likely don't use demons. Because blood magic itself doesn't inherently use demons. It's a magic that uses life force. It's s magic that makes it easier to summon demons, but demons are not required for its use.

The Last Flight certainly doesn't agree with you, but go on with your opinions. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Where is this stated in the lore?

First is logic, second is in WoT.

 

Regarding the second, it is flat out stated that the more suffering caused in the spilling of blood the more powerful the spell will be. Hence the reverse must also be true. If no suffering at all was caused, then the blood is barely useful.

 

Regarding the first, just think about it. If animal blood could be used in Blood Magic ritual, jsut exactly why would the Magisters then keep dozens of slaves around, isntead of just cattle? Cattle is easier to maintain, cost less, and aren't morally abhorent to slaughter. Bottom line: If animal blood could be used, then the very idea of using humans as a source of blood would never have been so widespread as it is(/was).

[Incantrix]

Animal blood cannot be used in Blood Magic, and blood spilled without suffering is highly inefficient.

Blood magic can only be used on things connected to the fade. So no. Animals wont work. 

 

It must be obtained from sentient dreaming species. 

 

 

 

There is no evil magic only evil mages

 

Oh no. Blood magic is most powerful when you're trying to hurt others and most powerful when used to kill. So yes, it is evil magic. 

[Keroko]

Yes, after it's refined and watered down. You can't water down demons.

And yet many Templars still suffer lyrium addiction. And most of them are paranoid and obsessed, too.
 

The Last Flight certainly doesn't agree with you, but go on with your opinions.

Could you quote the relevant parts in question? Because Origins, DA2 and World of Thedas do not mention that channelling demons is a requirement anywhere.
 

First is logic, second is in WoT.

Reading the World of Thedas blood magic entry... no mention of animal blood not working for blood magic that I could find.
 

Regarding the second, it is flat out stated that the more suffering caused in the spilling of blood the more powerful the spell will be. Hence the reverse must also be true. If no suffering at all was caused, then the blood is barely useful.

You are turning an assumption into a claim of fact. This is a slippery slope in any debate, and without a source not one I would call particularly reliable. Lyrium also enhances magic, after all, which means that by your logic any spell cast without massive quantities of lyrium is barely useful as well.
 

Regarding the first, just think about it. If animal blood could be used in Blood Magic ritual, jsut exactly why would the Magisters then keep dozens of slaves around, isntead of just cattle? Cattle is easier to maintain, cost less, and aren't morally abhorent to slaughter. Bottom line: If animal blood could be used, then the very idea of using humans as a source of blood would never have been so widespread as it is(/was).

Because the Tevinter magisters were cruel, power hungry manipulative bastards. Slaves were a status symbol to them, and by extension sacrificing them is showing of you have so many slaves you can afford to sacrifice one or two or three.

Slaves are also multi-functional and obey commands much easier than cattle.

Blood magic can only be used on things connected to the fade. So no. Animals wont work.

It must be obtained from sentient dreaming species.

Again, source?

Oh no. Blood magic is most powerful when you're trying to hurt others and most powerful when used to kill. So yes, it is evil magic.

Or when you're sealing powerful Tevinter magisters that make a mockery out of the magic any regular mage throws around, if we look at Legacy.