298 réponses à ce sujet

[Catche Jagger]

Though my Hawke would disagree with me, In my personal opinion practicing blood magic is an act of extreme hubris. When you look at the past uses of something and see how it has only brought pain, how arrogant must one be to then say: "Well, they didn't know what they were doing. I understand it in full andcan cotrol this power and use it for the better"? The past holds lessons for us all.

 

I was more sympathetic to the blood mages back in DA:O (just as I was to the templars) when it was often played off as only being used in very extreme circumstances by a misguided few. Then DA2 came along and I got to encounter a whole slew of people who went completely insane and turned on m when I was trying to help them. Then there was Merril's plotline which pretty much drove home the whole "This is bad ****" message. Making a pact with a demon is a corrupting influence that wears away at the user.

[Keroko]

And that's why I use the term Maleficarum, it doesn't refer to only blood mages. It also refers to mages that have become abominations. That's why I believe if both mages and templars seek out maleficarum this distrust they have with one another can be ended.

 

Technically, maleficarum refers to a mage who has turned magic against the common man. In other words: A mage who uses any kind of magic to commit a crime (theft, murder, what have you) is a malificar.

 

This is not just limited to blood magic or abominations.

 

 

It's not about killing. And it's not even about the means of using it, which are generally immoral, OE the typical character of those who use it. Rather it is about the mind control - and actual mind rape - properties of blood magic.

 

Which are not the only properties. And I will point out -again- that mindrape is present in the Chantry-aproved trees as well.

 

As well as burning people to ashes, freezing them to death, cracking their bones with stone, frying their limbs with lighting, turning them into living bombs, crushing them with telekinetic force, draining their life to heal yourself and reanimating their corpses once you're done with all of that.

 

And all of the above from Chantry-approved trees. Seriously, most magic is generally immoral. In the end it's use lies with the user.

[raging_monkey]

Technically, maleficarum refers to a mage who has turned magic against the common man. In other words: A mage who uses any kind of magic to commit a crime (theft, murder, what have you) is a malificar.
 
This is not just limited to blood magic or abominations.
 
 

 
Which are not the only properties. And I will point out -again- that mindrape is present in the Chantry-aproved trees as well.
 
As well as burning people to ashes, freezing them to death, cracking their bones with stone, frying their limbs with lighting, turning them into living bombs, crushing them with telekinetic force, draining their life to heal yourself and reanimating their corpses once you're done with all of that.
 
And all of the above from Chantry-approved trees. Seriously, most magic is generally immoral. In the end it's use lies with the user.

its more like mind-inapropriate touching than mindrape. Just saying

[Keroko]

its more like mind-inapropriate touching than mindrape. Just saying

 

It's got a spell named horror, which makes the target experience extreme paralysing terror even in the midst of combat. That's a textbook definition of mindrape.

 

Waking nightmare is even worse. It randomly stuns the target in terror, confuses it to the point where it switches the target or even manipulates the target to become the caster's ally. The difference between waking nightmare and blood magic mind control is thin as a leaf.

[Icy Magebane]

It's got a spell named horror, which makes the target experience extreme paralysing terror even in the midst of combat. That's a textbook definition of mindrape.

That isn't even close to the same as dominating another person's will and making them do what you want.

[raging_monkey]

It's got a spell named horror, which makes the target experience extreme paralysing terror even in the midst of combat. That's a textbook definition of mindrape.

i dont see it as such its at worst a extreme version of psychological torture but BM is the true MR but this is just my opinion. Its on the observer i guess

[Keroko]

That isn't even close to the same as dominating another person's will and making them do what you want.

 

No, it's not, but it's still mindrape if one sticks to the trope.

 

Though waking nightmare can achieve similar results, if more randomly. So there's Chantry Approved mind control nonetheless.

[raging_monkey]

No, it's not, but it's still mindrape if one sticks to the trope.
 
Though waking nightmare can achieve similar results, if more randomly. So there's Chantry Approved mind control nonetheless.

tranquality osnt really mind control thats what your suggesting yes?

[EmperorSahlertz]

No, it's not, but it's still mindrape if one sticks to the trope.

 

Though waking nightmare can achieve similar results, if more randomly. So there's Chantry Approved mind control nonetheless.

Waking Nightmare isn't exactly mind "control" as much as it is mind "manipulation". The caster of the spell does not force the subject to act in certain ways, he "merely" projects visions into the mind of the subject, and the subject then reacts to these.

[Keroko]

Waking Nightmare isn't exactly mind "control" as much as it is mind "manipulation". The caster of the spell does not force the subject to act in certain ways, he "merely" projects visions into the mind of the subject, and the subject then reacts to these.

 

The line between 'manipulation' and 'control' is thin as a leaf.

 

because let's face it, if someone can add suggestions so powerful they make you attack your own friends, just how is that any different from control?

[Icy Magebane]

No, it's not, but it's still mindrape if one sticks to the trope.

 

Though waking nightmare can achieve similar results, if more randomly. So there's Chantry Approved mind control nonetheless.

It isn't mind control if you can't direct the person to act in a specific way.  Fear spells could be classified as illusion casting or perhaps emotion control, neither of which is as morally reprehensible as the outright subversion of a person's will.  Using shocking language to describe a particular type of magic doesn't make the effects comparable to those of blood magic.

[Keroko]

It isn't mind control if you can't direct the person to act in a specific way.  Fear spells could be classified as illusion casting or perhaps emotion control, neither of which is as morally reprehensible as the outright subversion of a person's will.  Using shocking language to describe a particular type of magic doesn't make the effects comparable to those of blood magic.

 

I ain't the one who started calling blood magic mindrape, that credit belongs to the 'blood magic is evil' side of the debate.

 

But the blame game aside, I repeat: If someone can add suggestions so powerful they make you attack your own friends, just how is that any different from mind control?

[raging_monkey]

How about we dint use the R word

[Icy Magebane]

I ain't the one who started calling blood magic mindrape, that credit belongs to the 'blood magic is evil' side of the debate.

 

But the blame game aside, I repeat: If someone can add suggestions so powerful they make you attack your own friends, just how is that any different from control?

Listen, mind control and fear are completely different psychological effects.  Just because one can be classified a certain way doesn't mean that the other fits that description... both types of spells affecting the victim's mind is not enough of a connection to make those effects equitable.  Mind control is far more sinister and invasive than fear spells, no matter how badly you want to draw a parallel.  The other problem I have with your argument is that you keep referring to Waking Nightmare forcing people to attack their friends... the problem here is that the spell is causing illusions that make the victims act in random ways.  There is no guarantee that they will attack anyone while under the influence of this spell, let alone a specific target of the caster's choosing.  Blood magic, on the other hand, does allow for this and much more.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The line between 'manipulation' and 'control' is thin as a leaf.

 

because let's face it, if someone can add suggestions so powerful they make you attack your own friends, just how is that any different from control?

Because you aren't forced to? It is the person subjected to the vision's own choice to attack (remember, he doesn't necesarrily see his friends anymore). With mind control there is no choice.

[Keroko]

Listen, mind control and fear are completely different psychological effects.  Just because one can be classified a certain way doesn't mean that the other fits that description... both types of spells affecting the victim's mind is not enough of a connection to make those effects equitable.  Mind control is far more sinister and invasive than fear spells, no matter how badly you want to draw a parallel.  The other problem I have with your argument is that you keep referring to Waking Nightmare forcing people to attack their friends... the problem here is that the spell is causing illusions that make the victims act in random ways.  There is no guarantee that they will attack anyone while under the influence of this spell, let alone a specific target of the caster's choosing.  Blood magic, on the other hand, does allow for this and much more.

 

So blood magic allows for finer control. How does that make it more evil? You're still manipulating or forcing someone to kill their own friends.

[Icy Magebane]

So blood magic allows for finer control. How does that make it more evil? You're still manipulating or forcing someone to kill their own friends.

Fear spells do not allow the caster to directly influence whether or not a victim kills anyone... they simply cause illusions that may cause that person to lash out.  There is no way to predict whether this will even happen, let alone control it.

[raging_monkey]

Fear spells do not allow the caster to directly influence whether or not a victim kills anyone... they simply cause illusions that may cause that person to lash out.  There is no way to predict whether this will even happen, let alone control it.

basically this is true

[Keroko]

Fear spells do not allow the caster to directly influence whether or not a victim kills anyone... they simply cause illusions that may cause that person to lash out.  There is no way to predict whether this will even happen, let alone control it.

 

And yet, you as the mage are still perfectly okay with the chance of that happening. Yes, blood magic has more control, but when you cast waking nightmare you know full well that you're either forcing someone to face their worst terrors (mental torture isn't exactly nice either) or manipulating someone's mind to the point where they might attack their closest friends.

 

Why is waking nightmare less evil just because the end result depends on a coin-toss?

 

Anyway, sleep now. Will continue this rather interesting debate tomorrow.

[raging_monkey]

And yet, you as the mage are still perfectly okay with the chance of that happening. Yes, blood magic has more control, but when you cast waking nightmare you know full well that you're either forcing someone to face their worst terrors (mental torture isn't exactly nice either) or manipulating someone's mind to the point where they might attack their closest friends.
 
Why is waking nightmare less evil just because the end result depends on a coin-toss?
 
Anyway, sleep now. Will continue this rather interesting debate tomorrow.

chance is chaotic and "fair" so the coin toss as you claim is a random chance of a action that could go anywhere

[Subtle54]

From a gameplay point of view, intentionally devoiding myself of health never appealed to me. I chose the specialization for the increase in health, but never invested in any of the powers.

[Icy Magebane]

And yet, you as the mage are still perfectly okay with the chance of that happening. Yes, blood magic has more control, but when you cast waking nightmare you know full well that you're either forcing someone to face their worst terrors (mental torture isn't exactly nice either) or manipulating someone's mind to the point where they might attack their closest friends.

 

Why is waking nightmare less evil just because the end result depends on a coin-toss?

 

Anyway, sleep now. Will continue this rather interesting debate tomorrow.

Fair enough...  this is indeed interesting, so I'll just post something now while it's still fresh in my mind.

 

I think that the main problem I have with mind control, and what differentiates it the most from fear, is the range of actions that a person using mind control can purposefully force another person to engage in.  Whether this involves murder, suicide, interrogation, emptying the safe in a noble's treasure vault, or some other behavior the person would otherwise object to, the sheer number of behaviors that a blood mage can force their victim to engage in elevates it above and beyond any other form of mental manipulation (rage, fear, paralysis, etc).  It is the ability to directly influence a person and fully enslave their mind and body that makes mental domination distasteful long before it is even put into practice.  This is why it is shunned by law enforcement whereas lesser forms of manipulation are not.  Well, one of the reasons anyway... I have no idea whether mind control would be banned if it could be done without the use of blood magic, but the fact that blood magic is the only means by which a person can take full control of the body and mind of another is a compelling reason for why the entire school is banned.

[raging_monkey]

Query : if BM can mind control x person who holds key information why not use it. We use "creative informational retrieval techniques" IRL the concept is similar

[Icy Magebane]

Query : if BM can mind control x person who holds key information why not use it. We use "creative informational retrieval techniques" IRL the concept is similar

My thing is this... why even learn blood magic in the first place?  Why not just rely on normal interrogation methods?  Ones that don't involve blood sacrifices and demons, and that don't weaken the Veil?

 

Taking shortcuts often leads to ruin... this is especially true in the DA setting, so why risk it?

[Shadow Raziel]

I kill them whenever I come across them. or the SL will allow it. I have no use for them whatsoever.