298 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

My thing is this... why even learn blood magic in the first place?  Why not just rely on normal interrogation methods?  Ones that don't involve blood sacrifices and demons, and that don't weaken the Veil?
 
Taking shortcuts often leads to ruin... this is especially true in the DA setting, so why risk it?

true but what about the greater good(aware the subjective term). Some people are strong enough to withstand interrogation and dont break... sometimes you have to break the law to get the bad guy(not always but sometimes)

[Icy Magebane]

true but what about the greater good(aware the subjective term). Some people are strong enough to withstand interrogation and dont break... sometimes you have to break the law to get the bad guy(not always but sometimes)

It's like Executor Pallin said in Mass Effect, "if the cure is worse than the disease, then what's the point?"  We aren't talking about people who are born with the ability to read minds, we are talking about mages who consciously undergo blood magic training with the intention of dominating minds... that's a very specific path that you don't just stumble into.  Assuming a mage even manages to acquire this knowledge safely, they must then wield it responsibly.  Sure, interrogating a criminal by forcing them to divulge information could serve the greater good, but where do we draw the line?  It would be up to each individual blood mage to decide where, when, and under what circumstances it is appropriate to enslave the mind of another person... considering the fact that there would be no way to control how these abilities are used once the knowledge becomes common, is the potential benefit really worth allowing unrestricted access to that kind of power?

[raging_monkey]

It's like Executor Pallin said in Mass Effect, "if the cure is worse than the disease, then what's the point?"  We aren't talking about people who are born with the ability to read minds, we are talking about mages who consciously undergo blood magic training with the intention of dominating minds... that's a very specific path that you don't just stumble into.  Assuming a mage even manages to acquire this knowledge safely, they must then wield it responsibly.  Sure, interrogating a criminal by forcing them to divulge information could serve the greater good, but where do we draw the line?  It would be up to each individual blood mage to decide where, when, and under what circumstances it is appropriate to enslave the mind of another person... considering the fact that there would be no way to control how these abilities are used once the knowledge becomes common, is the potential benefit really worth allowing unrestricted access to that kind of power?

of course not unrestricted BM hurts everybody. Simply making a possible arguement for some practicioners

[Icy Magebane]

of course not unrestricted BM hurts everybody. Simply making a possible arguement for some practicioners

Some?  I was under the impression that this was an all or nothing kind of thing...   In that case, who determines which people are allowed to practice blood magic and how would they guarantee that the mages who are allowed to wield it do not abuse this power?  What is the penalty for unsanctioned blood magic in the less restrictive system you are in favor of?

[K-Mart]

After reading Last Flight I don't view all individuals who use it as evil - but I agree with Calien in that it's too risky to use, with the price unknown. I'm still not sure how I'll RP it on different Inquisitors until I'm actually playing.

[Drasanil]

true but what about the greater good(aware the subjective term). Some people are strong enough to withstand interrogation and dont break... sometimes you have to break the law to get the bad guy(not always but sometimes)

 

Given what we saw from Cullen in DAO and Hawke with the BM prostitute, having sufficiently strong will can stave off mind control. If you're strong enough not to break against Thedas' conventional interrogation techniques [which I imagine are hardly pleasant] you probably have the mental fortitude to withstand the blood magic as well.  

[Br3admax]

What was your point? (Honest question). When I replied I belived you were debating the point of the poster right above you about the Joining and Phylqcteries...

Also this whole School of Blood vs Blood Magic seems intentionally vague. A vagueness I believe to be the result of the taboo against studying the school. Were there more researches on it (and for the record I'm not saying it should) the distinction would be clearer.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp. One is using magic on blood. Mages use magic to add magical properties to blood. The other is using demonic influence manipulate blood while at the same time is weakening the Veil to much greater degree. It isn't ambiguous at all. People just refuse to see that Blood Magic has almost no benefits that outway the costs.

[raging_monkey]

Some?  I was under the impression that this was an all or nothing kind of thing...   In that case, who determines which people are allowed to practice blood magic and how would they guarantee that the mages who are allowed to wield it do not abuse this power?  What is the penalty for unsanctioned blood magic in the less restrictive system you are in favor of?

*note this is open to change*

Applicates for BM are only chosen from the enchanter ranks by the KC and FE and the senior enchanters and they are to undergo extreme questioning for 6-9hours minium after situational use unless during a blight then wardens handle this.
Should they prove to be a detriment rather aid, they are to be slain or if went peacefully tranquilized(hate tranqing but its a fair punishment)

Unsanticioned BM is punishable by death/tranquility and any accompliances are to recieve the same fate unless mitigating circumstances.

While i am aware this broad(personally would prefer more outside input) but without more study this is the best i came up with. I am more than open to suggestion to amendments

[Icy Magebane]

*note this is open to change*

Applicates for BM are only chosen from the enchanter ranks by the KC and FE and the senior enchanters and they are to undergo extreme questioning for 6-9hours minium after situational use unless during a blight then wardens handle this.
Should they prove to be a detriment rather aid, they are to be slain or if went peacefully tranquilized(hate tranqing but its a fair punishment)

Unsanticioned BM is punishable by death/tranquility and any accompliances are to recieve the same fate unless mitigating circumstances.

While i am aware this broad(personally would prefer more outside input) but without more study this is the best i came up with. I am more than open to suggestion to amendments

Well, the penalties for the unlawful use of blood magic are appropriately severe, so that's a good start... I still don't see much value in allowing it to be studied, but if it absolutely must be allowed, this is better than unrestricted access.  I'd really only be comfortable with this if it were limited to a single, heavily fortified Circle and the total number of blood mages would have to be kept very low.  At least until they discover some tangible benefit or otherwise prove that blood magic is worth the trouble...

[raging_monkey]

Well, the penalties for the unlawful use of blood magic are appropriately severe, so that's a good start... I still don't see much value in allowing it to be studied, but if it absolutely must be allowed, this is better than unrestricted access.  I'd really only be comfortable with this if it were limited to a single, heavily fortified Circle and the total number of blood mages would have to be kept very low.  At least until they discover some tangible benefit or otherwise prove that blood magic is worth the trouble...

i more than agree with that system.

Its funny 2 months ago i was super pro-mage now... im a respectable moderate lol

[Icy Magebane]

i more than agree with that system.

Its funny 2 months ago i was super pro-mage now... im a respectable moderate lol

Although I favor order, I've always been rather moderate.  I'm more focused on keeping people safe and minimizing the chaos that magic inevitably brings with it than anything else... not that all of the DA PC's I've created would agree with that, of course... but in any case, I'm open to new ideas that could reform the Circles, just not reckless ones.

[raging_monkey]

Although I favor order, I've always been rather moderate.  I'm more focused on keeping people safe and minimizing the chaos that magic inevitably brings with it than anything else... not that all of the DA PC's I've created would agree with that, of course...

same half of my mine are machivellian at best. Sometimes to bring order you have to use chaos

[dragonflight288]

Hmm, pro blood or con blood. An interesting question.

 

Yes, untrained blood mages will likely become abominations, especially since most sources of learning it have been destroyed so demons are some of the only sources, and by far the easiest, to learn from. But even if the mage does not become an abomination, if their motives or morals aren't set in stone and immovable, it is open to heavy abuse. 

 

However, without blood magic, you would not have any Grey Wardens, period. Nor would the templars have phylacteries to track mages down, for phylacteries are a form of blood magic.

 

Also, it's important to note that many things that is harmless, meaning anatomical studies (Tome of the Mortal Vessel's item description discusses this), have been banned by many because it is considered blood magic. Also, some things that are not blood magic are mistaken for it, sometimes deliberately. Spirit Warriors aren't even mages at all, but the class spec specifically says that they are treated as such upon discovery. The School of Spirit, which openly discusses summoning spirits and studying the nature of the Fade in the codex, is also stated plainly that it's often mistaken for blood magic. The codex on apostates says that the line between apostates, meaning mages who aren't part of the Circle, and maleficar are deliberately skewed by the templars and the Chantry so apostates who aren't even blood mages are treated as such. 

 

I can see the regulated use of blood magic in effect. There is no way that the litany of Adralla was written an discovered on theoretical knowledge alone, to use an example. But if the Circle's are to have any blood mages, it must come from the Senior Enchanters, and those of good standing and reputation, and these mages must consent to being monitored constantly, to prevent abuse. Blood magic, if used carefully and studied without sacrificing or harming others, can be used to great effect.

 

Imagine how the Joining had to be discovered. To come up with it, it would take far more than some herbalists, mages and others knowledgeable in theory to create a ritual that makes people resist the taint, and then use it to slay the archdemon, on one go. It probably took decades of work and experimenting to come up with a solution. 

 

Whose to say that there aren't other useful blood magic rituals that can be used to benefit all humanity, dwarves and elves, were there not a blanket ban on all study? 

 

But I do see the danger. Those who abuse it, or are caught unlawfully using it should have the highest form of punishment brought down on their heads, but we shouldn't limit knowledge and potential use because of paranoia. 

 

That's my personal stance. 

[lil yonce]

*note this is open to change*

Applicates for BM are only chosen from the enchanter ranks by the KC and FE and the senior enchanters and they are to undergo extreme questioning for 6-9hours minium after situational use unless during a blight then wardens handle this.
Should they prove to be a detriment rather aid, they are to be slain or if went peacefully tranquilized(hate tranqing but its a fair punishment)

Unsanticioned BM is punishable by death/tranquility and any accompliances are to recieve the same fate unless mitigating circumstances.

While i am aware this broad(personally would prefer more outside input) but without more study this is the best i came up with. I am more than open to suggestion to amendments

"Conduct detrimental" is a catch-all accusation, and offenses and punishments that fall under it can be wildly inconsistent and unfair. Simple example, but player advocacy groups in sports leagues always closely monitor cases where a player has been fined, suspended, etc. for "conduct detrimental to the league" for these reasons. I agree with amnesty international on the death penalty, but if its used, its use must be clearly understood and defined. And still its appropriateness is open to debate. Same for tranquility.

 

And "unsanctioned" use of blood magic in this group - I'd analyze it on a individual case basis. I mean, who would want to join? A ten hour interrogation, the threat of death or tranquility hanging over their heads for "conduct detrimental"? Its way too extreme. And do they have any advocates? Because they will need them.

[raging_monkey]

"Conduct detrimental" is a catch-all accusation, and punishments for it can be wildly inconsistent. Simple example, but player advocacy groups always closely monitor cases where a player has been fined, suspended, etc. for "conduct detrimental to the league". I agree with amnesty international on the death penalty, but if its used, its use must be clearly understood and defined. And still its appropriateness is open to debate. Same for tranquility.
 
And "unsanctioned" use of blood magic in this group - I'd analyze it on a individual case basis. I mean, who would want to join? A ten hour interrogation, the threat of death or tranquility hanging over their heads for "conduct detrimental"? Its way too extreme. And do they have any advocates? Because they will need them.

oh a advocate as in lawyer right? Yes we will need those. Like i said it was a template not final product feel free to add-on

[ZerioctheTank]

Any mage blood mage or not can succumb to a demon. Sure blood mages have a higher risk but with proper knowledge this number can go down. From what info that I know it seems that using your blood to fuel your spells isn't as bad as actually casting a blood mage spell. I think the harrowing should involve a young mage to see first hand what happens if you succumb to a demon. I think that would be more effective.

[CapivaRasgor]

I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp. One is using magic on blood. Mages use magic to add magical properties to blood. The other is using demonic influence manipulate blood while at the same time is weakening the Veil to much greater degree. It isn't ambiguous at all. People just refuse to see that Blood Magic has almost no benefits that outway the costs.

 

It's not hard to grasp, it would actually be pretty simple if there was a clear line separating the two uses. There isn't, not when the series lead writer pretty much flat out states that a device that uses blood (the Phylacteries) is a form of blood magic (Evangeline comments on this in Asunder, there is also the interview Lady Insanity had with Gaider). The only thing that is clear is that there is more to the school of blood magic than demonic influence/mind control/Veil tearing, weter more specific knowledge is worth pursuing or not or any cost x benefit relation from using the school is debatable, personally I think any research in blood magic isn't worth it (Don't really go into this kinda of debate if it's all the same to you).

 

Also here is the interview:

 

[Br3admax]

It's not hard to grasp, it would actually be pretty simple if there was a clear line separating the two uses. 

One uses demons. One doesn't. Some spells also can only be done with blood. The difference is clearly there for anyone actually looking for it. Mages casting a spell on darkspawn blood to make the Taint spread quickly in a Warden isn't the same as a mage converting blood into power. As for phylacteries, never approved of those anyway, but for some reason I doubt that it uses demonic power if Templars allow it. :/ 

[Mrs_Stick]

I am very much pro mage. As far as blood magic in concerned I understand the fear behind but even like Duncan says to the Mage Warden in the Circle Tower some Warden Mage's use blood magic. I am not sure I will ever truly accept blood magic as okay just depends on how the Mage themselves are using it. Jowan was an iffy for me and Merrill I stopped her at all points because I felt like she did not understand what she was truly doing. To be honest all magic can be evil just depends on how it is used.  

[Incantrix]

I absolutely positively will never except blood magic as a route. Blood magic is for weak mages who aren't powerful enough so they have to resort to demonic energies to put out near power levels of more powerful non-blood mage mages. 

 

Furthermore, blood magic isn't exactly what I'd describe the magic used with phylacteries and "The joining". There's nothing demonic about that kind of magic (to our knowledge). 

 

As I said before. I'm anti-chantry and I view blood magic as the reason why people fear mages. If anything. ALL sane mages should resent blood magic and blood mages for putting the fear of magic into peoples heart. It is the maleficarim who the ordinary thedasian paints mages. And every mage I make destroys blood magic with extreme prejudice. 

[Inquisitor Julianos]

F**K Bloodmagic, only Lazy Mages are seduced by Demons and need Cheater Power.

[Ryzaki]

My mages are strong enough without it so *shrug* it's a tool for the desperate and overwhelms the weak. It has it's purpose like most things but for the most part...it should be avoided.

[Han Shot First]

Depends on the character really. For the Inquisitor? They're maleficarum who will face the Maker's justice.

 

[boissiere]

Blood mages are for me the main reason that explains why all mages have to stay in a circle in order to be able to be controlled by templars (not those who are completly addicted to lyrium but still). I'm not fully  against but they surely are extremely dangerous for themselves and others.

[WarriorOfLight999]

An interesting question:

 

1) I do not believe the Chantry story of the Blights beginning with Blood magic and Tevinter hubris. It's obviously a convenient, fabricated narrative.

2) In order to defeat a Blight, blood magic is essential in the Joining. That's the bare minimum.

3) There are differing types of blood magic, from mind control to simple phylacteries, the latter of which the Chantry uses.

 

However:

 

1) Demons cannot be trusted. And spirits are equally dangerous.

2) Some spells simply have no place in society. The temptation will always be there for a blood mage to use mind control.