69 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

About 30 seconds in. Thanks, Anita... I guess.

[Althix]

emm... honestly i really doubt that your goal with this topic is to point out that DAO was seen in some news.

[BioWareM0d13]

I'm not sure exactly why DA:O was singled out. Female characters aren't victims of violence in the game any more than male characters.

[AutumnWitch]

Dragon Age games were mentioned and spoofed on the Will Wheaton Project a few times. Funny stuff.

[BronzTrooper]

Funny how they show the CE origin.  Really, what they showed of Far Cry 3 was worse than anything shown in DA:O.  Hell, you can actually STOP Vaughan from raping any of the women, though you kind of have to kill him, but really, he had it coming.  Not to mention you can play as a f!Tabris and go on a killing spree through the arl's estate and kill him.  Not sure why DA:O would be singled out for 'abuse of women' for one scene that shows up based on which background the player chooses.  But then, I guess it's just like how FOX went all "OMGVIDEOGAMEPORN!!" about ME1 when the Witcher series shows more than ME and DA ever have.  

 

Maybe they're singled out because they aren't as main stream as the games that show more intense stuff?  * sighs *  Gotta love how hypocritical the media is.  

[Ferretinabun]

They didn't single out DA:O because they thought it was the worst offender. They singled it out just because they wanted to use the "It's a party; grab a ****** and have a good time" clip. It's a catchy soundbite that gets the message across. That's all.

[TheMadHarridan]

Groan. As Han Shot First said, female characters aren't victims of violence in DAO any more than male characters are.

 

As for the City Elf origin that the video pointed out as some "extreme" example of how females are treated as inferior in video games, I never took it that way. I always viewed it as akin to the abysmal historical practice where the lord/ruler of the land would come and claim his "rights" with the bride on her wedding night. If anything, this video shows that ELVES are viewed as inferior in DAO, not women. After all, you don't see Vaughan trying to force himself on a human girl. Groan again.   

[AlanC9]

emm... honestly i really doubt that your goal with this topic is to point out that DAO was seen in some news.

Seriously, it was. I just couldn't believe that was the game the PBS guys decided to highlight. Should have blamed them rather than Sarkeesian, since IIRC she didn't say DA:O was particularly heinous. But Ferretinabun's probably right; it was the easiest way to get the point across.

[BioWareM0d13]

I just started watching one of her vids to see what the specific gripe about DA:O was, and it seems she objects to portrayals of violence (particularly sexual violence) against women just to make the game world more edgy or harsh or the villain more unlikable. I think that is a valid complaint about games in general, but I think she is a bit unfair in including DA:O in that. If the only female characters in the game were victims she might have a point, but the series isn't lacking for strong female characters. The protagonist is one potentially. And male characters are just as frequently victims of violence.

[Bhryaen]

Not really sure what these critics effectively want of games- Sarkgirl in particular. Regarding the vid clip- obviously they want the abusive RL behavior to stop (though there are feminists who do similar things to their own choice of targets- getting them fired, etc.) But the clip confoundedly lumped RL intimidation of women (and men) with sexual violence in games- two different issues. Generally these games... involve violence... killing, in fact... like, loads of it- start to finish. And the critics protest DAO simply because Vaughan targets girls for non-murder crime? (No one seems opposed to Vaughan killing the female CE's husband-to-be, mind you... and, yes, that's killing him... dead.)

 

If we also give a damn about not making violence against men "edgy," I don't know what game devs are supposed to do with this "criticism." Either violence in general is ok as a theme and neither sex gets preferential treatment, or violence in general is not ok and they want to restrict everyone to sudoku. Surely if sexual violence is too much, then violent deaths are way out, no? But devs have to come up with a bad guy (*ahem* or girl)... someone we ultimately not only kill but also very much want to kill, the road to that killing being a motivation to play through their game. Yet somehow they can't include a sexually violent antagonist... something that makes me always very intent and invested in plowing through the Arl of Denerim's Estate in order to personally behead Vaughan. (I'll reload as many times as it takes to make sure the killing blow is decapitation...) So any motive to kill other than that the male villain is a rapist. Well, that motive works for me anyway... and in fact is a bit of a strong motive IRL as well...

 

The only legitimate gripe against DAO on this ground might be that the player not only doesn't have to kill Vaughan but also can actually take a (promised) bribe and let the "rape party" continue uncontested (albeit with dead guards now littering the place). Not to mention that, yes, one of the women (Shianni) is necessarily raped no matter what your character does- or at the very least this is implied. But that's not the gripe they featured in the video which seemed to take as offensive simply to portray intended rape (Vaughan's entreaty to his thugs), and nor is it Sarkeesian's gripe that also just opposes the theme of rape (against women) in general. They seem to be against rape even being mentioned- which, as I mentioned, is too ironic to single out in the midst of gobs of gruesome, blood-spilling violence (disproportionately against men). After all there's no objection to the torture room in the basement of Vaughan's Estate where men were the only victims... (or Zev's Fade Nightmare...) The only meaningful point I therefore can take from the Sarkocritics wouid be that they would prefer to see more sexual violence against men in games- i.e., since women are featured as the target of sex crimes disproportionately more often. In that case, fair enough, I suppose... if they were to word it that way...

[Ryriena]

Out of all the games Anita had to put in her series, she puts DAO... which has more female players than the usual franchise.

I'm all for supporting the general gist of her message, but... damnit. She's such a noob. Not sure how else to put it.

Yeah, even I find supporting the general gist of her message, but pick the damn games that don't have female players that play the game in question. I was entrily happy to shank the jackass noble while playing as a female elf, since he got killed by the same type of person he hates and also a woman. And also dont pick the ones where the females NPC could probaly kick your butt in about a second with a sword or magic.

[Samahl]

if you actually watch the episode where she uses that clip, you'll notice DAO is barely mentioned at all. It's certainly not "singled out" - the majority of the games she uses to demonstrate her point are quite varied and relevant to the subject matter. Even then, DA and BioWare should not be impervious to criticism. They may do a better job than most people, most of the time, but they're not perfect.

 

One thing of note: often, violence against women is sexualized in a way that violence against men is not. This applies to Dragon Age as well, and the City Elf origin in particular. Obviously, there are male victims of sexual violence in the real world, but they are barely represented in comparison to female victims in pretty much any kind of media you can think of.

[BioWareM0d13]

if you actually watch the episode where she uses that clip, you'll notice DAO is barely mentioned at all. It's certainly not "singled out" - the majority of the games she uses to demonstrate her point are quite varied and relevant to the subject matter. Even then, DA and BioWare should not be impervious to criticism. They may do a better job than most people, most of the time, but they're not perfect.

 

One thing of note: often, violence against women is sexualized in a way that violence against men is not. This applies to Dragon Age as well, and the City Elf origin in particular. Obviously, there are male victims of sexual violence in the real world, but they are barely represented in comparison to female victims in pretty much any kind of media you can think of.

 

I think we watched different clips. 

 

 

Dragon Age gets quite a bit of attention in the above. Or at least it gets as much attention as any of the other major game titles that are mentioned.

 

I think some of her criticism of the portrayal of women in games is valid. She raises some good points. Unfortunately I also think she also has a tendency to exaggerate or cherry pick facts to make a point , or to go full on Don Quixote against developers or games that aren't a problem. I think that only serves to overshadow her message.

[thruaglassdarkly]

I'm not sure this is the right place to even have this type of discussion, but we're having it, so I guess here it goes:

 

1. While it is unfortunate that DA:O gets singled out for criticism, it is only fair to examine the larger context of this story.  We are dealing with a problem in the aggregate, rather than with one particular game.  I love Bioware and the DA series, in no small part because it is one of the few games that allows a myriad of strong female characters (not just the protagonist) to be the agents of their own fate.  And it is difficult to see something that brings me joy cast in less-than-stellar light. But I must admit it is telling that even one of the most progressive game developers decided to include a female rape sequence as a potential origin story.  As many others on this forum have pointed out, DA:O is nowhere near the worst offender in this regard; allowing a (potentially) female character to then react to the awful things done to her in meaningful way and rescue herself is the exception not the rule.  But given how women are portrayed and treated in the medium as a whole, it is completely fair to ask whether the sequence needs to exist at all.  There are other catalysts to illicit action and emotion from the player (hell, there are 5 other non-rape based origin stories in the game itself).  Even if a player feels like the sequence is justified, it is still OK for someone else to ask the question.  Its a question that should be asked in future game development.  This does not mean that Bioware is evil, or that DA:O is turning men into fiends.  It just means the question is valid and should inform dev decisions moving forward.

 

2. Violence in general is not what's being called into question.  Sex is not even being called into question.  Its violence against a specific group of people who (again in the aggregate) are not given recourse to respond in any meaningful way.  Its sex where one partner is almost completely objectified.  I realize the DA series is neither the worst offender nor the most egregious example.  Quiet the opposite, it is one of the better examples.  The romance mechanics of DA:O allow relationships to grow organically through the game.  Female characters are given a great deal of autonomy (they won't always fall for your male or female hero) This is probably a case of dirt from the larger industry spilling onto a title that doesn't really deserve it.  That said, DA:O is not perfect in its portrayal of women any more than it is perfect in its battle mechanics.  I don't get angry when some asks for more refined combat, so why should it bother me if some wants the writers to refine how they tell stories about women.  And I think Bioware has done this/will continue to do so.  Part of the reason I buy, and will continue to buy, Bioware products is because they take this kind of criticism seriously and make an honest effort create a more inclusive gaming experience.

 

3.This is not even close to the meanest criticism I've heard for a Bioware game. I feel the impulse to vomit at some of the vitriol that has been spewed toward Mass Effect 3, my favorite game in the series. But as yet I have not launched a campaign defending the honor of ME3, because when I remove myself from my emotions I am able to see that some of that criticism is justified.  I do not agree with all of it (certainly not to the extent that some people feel the game is broken) but I think I can understand why some people were immensely frustrated with the title.   Furthermore, I am willing to acknowledge that an awareness of past failures is probably going to encourage Bioware build something better with future ME titles.  I can do the same with Anita's arguments.  I don't agree with every point she is making about the DA series.  I do agree with the argument as a whole.  The gaming industry can do a heck of a lot better.  Even Bioware can do better, and I doubt the developer will see a significant impact to its bottom line because of this story (honestly, are any of us threatening not to buy DA:I over this).  I for one am happy that people take the gaming medium seriously enough to have these conversations. I want to see interactive storytelling continue to grow.  Part of that process is reevaluating how certain groups are portrayed and what groups the medium is serving. This is a good thing.

[Samahl]

Dragon Age gets quite a bit of attention in the above. Or at least it gets as much attention as any of the other major game titles that are mentioned.

 

I disagree. Two clips are shown total, and neither of them are even accompanied by specific narration by Anita, unlike most of the other examples of major titles. I don't think Anita meant to represent Dragon Age as a particularly extreme example, but an example nonetheless.

 

I think some of her criticism of the portrayal of women in games is valid. She raises some good points. Unfortunately I also think she also has a tendency to exaggerate or cherry pick facts to make a point , or to go full on Don Quixote against developers or games that aren't a problem. I think that only serves to overshadow her message.

 

As I said above, BioWare is not perfect, and they are not immune to utilizing harmful tropes in their games. Them doing better than other studios doesn't mean there still isn't room for improvement, and I don't think Anita is wrong for calling attention to that, especially since BioWare is probably more likely to listen in the first place.

[Bhryaen]

Sarkygirl: "Now, to be clear, I'm certainly not saying that stories seriously examining the issues surrounding domestic or sexual violence are off-limits for interactive media. However..."

 

Riiiight.

 

Besides her tendency to lump different criticisms into a single narrative for dramatic effect (she was criticizing "sexualized" bodies while depicting a "domestic violence" clip from "Watchdogs" that wasn't at all sexual, for ex), Sarkeesian's central problem from her vid (I actually watched the whole thing *sigh*) is the same as with all special interest politics: lack of perspective. It's all about the womenz! She essentially took an assortment of the larger game titles (at last that $100+K project fee is kicking in) and looked for anything violent against women in them, then pointed at it accusingly. Most of it was admittedly quite awful- particularly taken out of context- but for someone sensitive to violence against, like, all humans rather than just women, it's not an accusation that stands out as "special" and only makes one wait for the point... Oh, that was the point: women are special. Is the main concern to be leveled at videogames that they've used violence against women or sexualized women victims of violence or were repetitive and uncreative about it... or rather that they were pretty much gratuitously and sensationalistically violent throughout the game in general? Depends on if you give a damn about anyone other than women... Much like her criticism of a game's use of rape (against women) as a theme in order to generate an emotional imperative, her use of rape (against women) as a theme is used to generate an emotional imperative among her supporters...

 

Sarkygirl: "But the game stories we've been discussing [she considers her monologue a 'discussion'] in this episode do not center on or focus on [redundancy much?] women's struggles, women's perseverence, or women's survival in the face of oppression. Nor are these narratives seriously interested in any sort of critical analysis or exploration of the emotional ramifications of violence against women on either a cultural or interpersonal level. The truth is, these games do not expose some grim reality of women's lives or sexual trauma..."

 

No, Sarky, they don't. They're videogames, not failed feminist propaganda. And people don't play videogames to be all about the hating on women. Pretty sure that wouldn't be what most gamers give as their top incentive to play. Other stuff actually goes on in games than the stuff you make a career of centering on and focusing on. Yes, you'd like to turn videogames into successful feminist propaganda that do all the above for women- and make all gamers buy games to see wonderfully-delivered feminist messages- but, alas, you know... reality. Now, are the best stories able to manage all the above-mentioned- whether told in the videogame format or not? Why, yes, of course. In fact, I'd advocate it. If a videogame could actually tell a mature-themed interactive story that was thoroughly entertaining (great gameplay, innovative, etc.) but also developed more complex concepts and deeper understanding of political issues... such a feat. But then again I would advocate this on a higher level than one catering exclusively to women (or men or homosexuals or heteroanglicans or purplepinkpolkadotters). So... yeah. (Mind you, there are great stories that actually don't defer to "women's issues" at all- even address them poorly- but still manage to be very meaningful, memorable works of art on other themes...) In the meantime talent is invested in game development the way the game devs determine works best for their game- whether into a more advanced GUI or a more well-constructed storyline (good writers would like the latter)- but I'm not skipping DAI due to any alleged creative investment failing to deliver women's advocacy properly... Sarky might.

 

Yet the fact is that the Vaughan scene- lumped in her video with all the rest of the junk-art that she picked out of games- does handle the theme fairly well. All the no-no's Sarky puts forward about feministly-failed games were avoided: the women victims aren't "sexualized" since the one rape that does occur isn't actually shown and she's even fully dressed when she's found (which is why it's a bit ambiguous, but still); the women victims' stories (other than the killed priestess, I suppose) don't end with the violent acts done to them, but rather Shianni becomes an outspoken advocate against the authorities and the femCE goes on to fight much larger baddies and kick an Archdemon's ass (though if the femCE took Vaughan's deal... meh), and the Alienage elves in general end up rioting over it; the rape didn't keep repeating itself casually or occur throughout the game but was limited to one particular storyline that had an impact on the rest of the game for that one Origin. So... passed all the Sark-tests but DAO is still presented as just "one of those games." It's unlikely Sarkygirl ever played DAO, but such poignant and gotcha-moment clips she downloaded, right? Take that, DAO misogynists!

 

At least Sarkeesian did finally give her message to Bioware at the end though after scolding them a few times for the Vaughan sequence: make future DA games like children's games where you pick up blocks to make a bridge and big monsters only eat frogs and things are scary but everything's gonna be just fine after doing another puzzle. So there's the answer to my question about what it is she actually wants the game developers to do differently... Good luck with that!

[BronzTrooper]

@thruaglassdarkly

 

Really, I saw the inclusion of the rape in the CE origin as a way to show that it does exist in the DA universe and that no one in the DA universe is doing anything to prevent it, especially since elves are the most likely to be targeted.  It's a dark fantasy for a reason.  It's not there because, "Oh look!  Drama!", it's there to show that not even the DA universe is perfect and even though women and men are generally treated equally, rape is still common.  It's not pretty, it's not ideal, but it's there, just like irl.

 

I also saw it as a way to show how some nobles abuse their power as well as a way to show how poorly the elves are regarded by humans in DA.

 

If you look at it from this POV, it makes the fact that the scene is there at all a bit easier to bear or, at least, to understand.  You kind of have to distance yourself when it comes to scenes like this in games to determine whether or not it's reasonable for such a scene to exist in it.  In RPGs, where the plot and the universe are more fleshed out and detailed, scenes like that show that the universe that has been created isn't perfect and still has problems.  In more actiony games (shooters and fighting games, mostly), scenes like that are mostly there to add drama and make the game a bit more 'edgy'.  Sometimes to make you hate a certain character because reasons.

 

Really, I think that scenes like that shouldn't be included unless they significantly add to the plot or character development in some way.  Not as something to get you mad at the antagonist because 'drama'.

[Ryriena]

I wish someone could set her straight, but at this point she's so famous the average female DAO fan couldn't make contact. I wish one of the female writers could speak to her. Or even funnier, get a well known fan like Felicia Day. Heh

Tell Felica Day, that her being a fan of Dragon Age is suporting violence against woman, and I bet you'll get laughed at pretty hard. But I do support her message and all that but at least pick the ones that actually have things that do more damage to woman like Grand Theft Auto where you can run over and rape woman for fun in the game than a game were the woman can easily kick your butt with in two seconds and shank the would be rapist with her murder knife. Or use a sword

[AlanC9]

But given how women are portrayed and treated in the medium as a whole, it is completely fair to ask whether the sequence needs to exist at all. There are other catalysts to illicit action and emotion from the player (hell, there are 5 other non-rape based origin stories in the game itself). Even if a player feels like the sequence is justified, it is still OK for someone else to ask the question. Its a question that should be asked in future game development. This does not mean that Bioware is evil, or that DA:O is turning men into fiends. It just means the question is valid and should inform dev decisions moving forward.

Inform those decisions..... how, exactly? I don't really see what's wanted from the developers here. I remember similar arguments around the time Gina showed up on Battlestar Galactica, but it was never clear what anyone wanted from Ron Moore, except for the fringe who insisted that such stories should simply never be told.

[thruaglassdarkly]

@thruaglassdarkly

 

Really, I saw the inclusion of the rape in the CE origin as a way to show that it does exist in the DA universe and that no one in the DA universe is doing anything to prevent it, especially since elves are the most likely to be targeted.  It's a dark fantasy for a reason.  It's not there because, "Oh look!  Drama!", it's there to show that not even the DA universe is perfect and even though women and men are generally treated equally, rape is still common.  It's not pretty, it's not ideal, but it's there, just like irl.

 

I'm not saying you are wrong.  I for one think DA handled this subject about as well as anyone ever has in a game.  What I'm responding to is the knee-jerk 'you're wrong' response that comes up when someone dares to question whether a female rape sequence should be featured in the game.  I never hear the level of retroactive backlash when someone complains about a games ending or fighting mechanics.  I think you are making a pretty good case for why you thought this sequence worked, and maybe that's the point.  You clearly thought through why this worked in DA:O and where it would otherwise be offensive.  What I'm saying is it is OK for us to think about these issues, and most of us will not unless someone first brings it to our attention.