Guest_StreetMagic_*
Personally, I never focused on the rape specifically. I saw a wider problem about elf and human relations.
It was especially shocking when I first played, because I've come to expect elves to be all ethereal and wise. Here they were treated like crap and lived in ghettos. This was a new idea to me.
Or more specifically, it's the Lore that stuck out. Not male/female issues.
Inform those decisions..... how, exactly? I don't really see what's wanted from the developers here. I remember similar arguments around the time Gina showed up on Battlestar Galactica, but it was never clear what anyone wanted from Ron Moore, except for the fringe who insisted that such stories should simply never be told.
Anita seems to prefer that overt depictions of rape not be shown in games, and that such subjects should be relegated to metaphor. I do not agree with her to this extent, although I can see how a person would come to that conclusion given the frequency with which sexual and physical violence against women are used as a plot devices.
With regards to Bioware, who as I mentioned above are some of the best devs I have dealt with with regards to sensitivity and inclusion, I would like to see the writers consider the following when deciding whether or not to feature a rape sequence:
1. Is this really necessary? Is this deception of female violence central to the building of our world? In the case of DA:O the answer is arguably yes, given what the writers are trying to establish with race politics in their world. On the other hand, this is a very brief sequence in the larger DA:O narrative that principally exists to force the player into joining the Gray Wardens. Which brings me to consideration no two.
2. Will this very serious issue be given the narrative space required to work itself out? If I have any complaint about this sequence is that it happens in a flash and then the whole event is almost entirely forgotten, aside from a few dialogue bits near the end of game. You get the grim satisfaction of hacking of Vaughn's head, but that's the extent to which the issue resolves itself. I chalk this up to more of a limit of technology than any subversive agenda, but its worth considering if something can be done well enough to be portrayed at all, especially when that something is a deeply personal, disturbing, invasive, and one-sided act of aggression. I'm hopeful that newer platforms and technology will allow for more nuanced approaches when dealing with hard-to-talk-about subjects.
3. How are the subjects of this sexual aggression we are thinking about writing treated in the narrative? For DA:O I go back and forth on how well this was executed. Again, I think its unfortunate that the sequence exists primarily as a device to spur you into the bigger story, but Bioware does better here than most. Shianai, as far as secondary characters go, is pretty well developed, although she reappears very late in the game. When she returns, it is in a role of proactive engagement with the community. I'm inclined to believe some thought went into how the before mentioned victims of sexual abuse would be portrayed without being objectified. As before, I think the limitations are more a matter of technology, word limits, or development schedules not quite meeting the demands of what the writers we're trying to achieve. Sensitive topics are by their nature more difficult to execute in any medium, let alone something like a game, where the narrative is sparsely connected at best.
Look, your larger point is correct. Witcher handles this way more poorly than Bioware. Far Cry 3 is far more offensive. Hell, God of War is so generally sadistic, against women and otherwise, I couldn't even complete a playthrough. It is unfortunate that PBS decided to highlight DA:O over the other 40-50 games reviewed in the series. However, if you are asking me can Bioware do better my answer is yes, and not only with regards to depictions of rape. FWIW, I think they have improved the inclusiveness of their games with regards to not just women, but other frequently marginalized groups. I have every reason to believe they will continue to do so, which is no small part of why I keep giving them my money and write on their boards. But its just as fair to ask Bioware to be more nuanced in how the write about women (or anyone) as it is to ask them to build a bigger game world, broaden the skill tree, or add more romance options. The breadth and cruelness with which people (some even on these boards) have argued for these kinds of changes far exceeds the tone of Anita's videos, and yet I have not seen nearly as intense a response to them. We don't have to agree with the best way to move forward, but I think we can agree this is something that can be improved.
Anita seems to prefer that overt depictions of rape not be shown in games, and that such subjects should be relegated to metaphor.
I agree with a lot that you say. But I don't really think this is true. I just think Anita is against these sensitive subjects being used flippantly to add dramatic effect or contextual colouring. 'Take these issues seriously' seems to me to be her takeaway message. But I suppose YMMV.
I agree with a lot that you say. But I don't really think this is true. I just think Anita is against these sensitive subjects being used flippantly to add dramatic effect or contextual colouring. 'Take these issues seriously' seems to me to be her takeaway message. But I suppose YMMV.
I'd say that is a fair interpretation. I'll have to watch it again to see if I agree. And whether I agree with your interpretation or my initial thoughts, I think both are completely fair requests to make of devs. Its only healthy to occasionally step back from something and ask "what is going on here." Games can certainly aim north of where they are right now. I like that this conversation has had me thinking about the things I am playing, and to what extent they might be regressive or inspiring or just OK. Its had me thinking about other issues in gaming, not just the treatment of women. I like to being able to have more of these kind of conversations about the medium I love the most.
BTW kudos to everyone who has replied so far. I was a little afraid when I ventured down this rabbit hole that it was going to explode in flames, but everyone has been remarkably civil. I appreciate the respect, and I hope I've shown it in return.
You know, since we're still on this topic, I do fanfics and I have a plan for my SI (self-insert) fanfic for a f!Tabris (non-Warden) show up later in the story. Since if you don't play as a Tabris Warden, the attempt to rescue Shianni and the others from Vaughan fails, I plan to have it where Soris and his group failed to get to f!Tabris before the guards dragged her to Vaughan's quarters. Since it's a SI fanfic, I'm sticking with 1 POV, so I won't actually have the scene in my fanfic, but it'll be implied later on. I'm mostly doing this to provide character development for f!Tabris that wouldn't exist in-game. Might have her help out during the orphanage, but I'm still thinking on that.
Normally, I wouldn't do something like this, but I feel like it would be an interesting twist on a Duncan-less CE origin.
(sry if this is too off topic)
if you actually watch the episode where she uses that clip, you'll notice DAO is barely mentioned at all. It's certainly not "singled out" - the majority of the games she uses to demonstrate her point are quite varied and relevant to the subject matter. Even then, DA and BioWare should not be impervious to criticism. They may do a better job than most people, most of the time, but they're not perfect.
One thing of note: often, violence against women is sexualized in a way that violence against men is not. This applies to Dragon Age as well, and the City Elf origin in particular. Obviously, there are male victims of sexual violence in the real world, but they are barely represented in comparison to female victims in pretty much any kind of media you can think of.
Sorry, Samahl, but "in the real world" women are victims of sexualised violence far more frequently than men. That's just one of the difficult things about being a woman. Where games try to draw on themes which their audience can relate to, the disproportionate burden women bear in terms of being victims of sexual violence is unsurprisingly a frequent touchstone, especially when the writers want to portray a cruel or regressive world.
Because sexual violence has all to often been the hallmark of a cruel or regressive society (which is pretty much every single society in history).
So I don't think it's fair or worthwhile to expect games to depict sexualised violence against men as often as they depict it targeting women.
The real issue is whether the portrayals of sexualised violence are meant to titillate or elicit approval from the audience. This may be the case in a very few games, but overwhelmingly it's not. Anita makes her money off sleazily implying that gamers are actually all hidden misogynists who like seeing women get brutalised in games. The reality, of course, differs.
Sorry, Samahl, but "in the real world" women are victims of sexualised violence far more frequently than men. That's just one of the difficult things about being a woman. Where games try to draw on themes which their audience can relate to, the disproportionate burden women bear in terms of being victims of sexual violence is unsurprisingly a frequent touchstone, especially when the writers want to portray a cruel or regressive world.
Because sexual violence has all to often been the hallmark of a cruel or regressive society (which is pretty much every single society in history).
I don't disagree with this part of your post. However...
The real issue is whether the portrayals of sexualised violence are meant to titillate or elicit approval from the audience. This may be the case in a very few games, but overwhelmingly it's not. Anita makes her money off sleazily implying that gamers are actually all hidden misogynists who like seeing women get brutalised in games. The reality, of course, differs.
I disagree with this, and I think you're misrepresenting Anita's argument.
Because sexual violence has all to often been the hallmark of a cruel or regressive society (which is pretty much every single society in history).
Rape wasn't exactly common in Spartan society. Attempted rape was, as well as broken arms and crushed testicles. 
Actually, as a historical expert on Ancient Sparta, I would say that yes their were many broken arms of the men that tried such a thing. Since woman knew how to defend themselves and were treated with respect becuase they took the same training as any warrior or the boys.Rape wasn't exactly common in Spartan society. Attempted rape was, as well as broken arms and crushed testicles.
Spoiler
The real issue is whether the portrayals of sexualised violence are meant to titillate or elicit approval from the audience. This may be the case in a very few games, but overwhelmingly it's not. Anita makes her money off sleazily implying that gamers are actually all hidden misogynists who like seeing women get brutalised in games. The reality, of course, differs.
First, you are absolutely right in your assertion that there is more sexual violence against women than against men. It is unfortunate but true. Perhaps part of the solution, as implied by Ryriena, is to teach women self-defense, but I'll go out on a limb to say men should share the load in reducing sexual violence.
I do take issue with a couple of things you said. I hope you'll read the entire message (I'm long-winded) because I'm not trying to denounce you. I just want to have the discussion.
First, having viewed these a few times now, I do not see the implication that any one in particular is a misogynist. Anita is taking a high-level view of the gaming industry and noticing some misogynistic trends within the industry as a whole. This is not the same as accusing every developer and gamer who has developed or played those games as women-haters. I did not even feel compelled to stop playing DA:O, let alone that anyone is calling me a misogynist. She is definitely asking all gamers of any stripe or gender to step back and reevaluate how women are being portrayed in games, to what extent this is regressive, and how it might be improved in future games. To use her language, you can like something while recognizing the flaws. And you know what, we as gamers do this all the time with other aspects of gaming. If I can hammer home only one point, its that its OK to point out things you don't like, and to ask for changes even if not everyone agrees. The portrayal of women in games is at least as worthwhile a discussion as a dissatisfying ending, and asking for devs to change how women are portrayed does not make one a man-hater. My only frustration is that so many of Anita's detractors resort to personal attacks. You know what, it isn't OK for those of us who agree that she makes some good points to get personal either. There's a healthy debate to be had about when and where its OK to portray sexual violence against women (or men for that matter). The portrayal of women is not the only content-driven issue that is bound to spring up as this medium evolves and matures (someday, somewhere, I would like to talk about the level of cynicism in many gaming worlds and stories, but I'll spare everybody here). The solution in these discussions is not to become immediately dismissive or aggressive. I really think all of us want games to be better, even when we have different ideas about how to get better games.
Second, I disagree with "mirror of reality" ethics in fiction. Again, you are right, there's a lot of sexual violence against women in the world. To me this is not an excuse to have a large amount of sexual violence against women in games. What is uncommon in my reality is stopping on my way home from work to hurl a conjured ball of fire into a crowd of goblin-like creatures. No one bats an eye at the lack of realism when this happens in DA:O. I'd say there is a time and a place where sexual violence might be appropriate for building a game world, perhaps even a fantasy worlds, but personally I'd like a better rational than "well, it happens in the real world."
Finally, your use of overwhelmingly feels a little too assertive for my liking. There are certainly games that avoid the sexual tropes mentioned in Anita's videos. And even though some prominent Bioware titles were featured, I walked away feeling like the company was doing a really good job (not perfect, but good). However, on the aggregate, there is an awful lot of sexual violence and sexual objectification in video games. Is all of this meant to titillate or elicit approval from the audience. Probably not, but I feel that some of it does. Off the top of my head Duke Nukem, God of War (series), Grand Theft Auto (series), Godfather, and Hitman were all games where I felt sexual violence and female objectification was specifically included to titillate or elicit approval. I'm forgetting the names of some others, but it does happen, and I don't think it should be dismissed offhand.
I guess what I'm looking for are some examples of where you think depictions of female violence are helping to move the issue of violence against women forward. I hope that does not sound condescending, because I am legitimately interested in where you think devs have succeeded in this regard, and what future devs could and should emulate. This might help move the discussion to a more productive place.
First, you are absolutely right in your assertion that there is more sexual violence against women than against men. It is unfortunate but true. Perhaps part of the solution, as implied by Ryriena, is to teach women self-defense, but I'll go out on a limb to say men should share the load in reducing sexual violence.
I do take issue with a couple of things you said. I hope you'll read the entire message (I'm long-winded) because I'm not trying to denounce you. I just want to have the discussion.
First, having viewed these a few times now, I do not see the implication that any one in particular is a misogynist. Anita is taking a high-level view of the gaming industry and noticing some misogynistic trends within the industry as a whole. This is not the same as accusing every developer and gamer who has developed or played those games as women-haters. I did not even feel compelled to stop playing DA:O, let alone that anyone is calling me a misogynist. She is definitely asking all gamers of any stripe or gender to step back and reevaluate how women are being portrayed in games, to what extent this is regressive, and how it might be improved in future games. To use her language, you can like something while recognizing the flaws. And you know what, we as gamers do this all the time with other aspects of gaming. If I can hammer home only one point, its that its OK to point out things you don't like, and to ask for changes even if not everyone agrees. The portrayal of women in games is at least as worthwhile a discussion as a dissatisfying ending, and asking for devs to change how women are portrayed does not make one a man-hater. My only frustration is that so many of Anita's detractors resort to personal attacks. You know what, it isn't OK for those of us who agree that she makes some good points to get personal either. There's a healthy debate to be had about when and where its OK to portray sexual violence against women (or men for that matter). The portrayal of women is not the only content-driven issue that is bound to spring up as this medium evolves and matures (someday, somewhere, I would like to talk about the level of cynicism in many gaming worlds and stories, but I'll spare everybody here). The solution in these discussions is not to become immediately dismissive or aggressive. I really think all of us want games to be better, even when we have different ideas about how to get better games.
Second, I disagree with "mirror of reality" ethics in fiction. Again, you are right, there's a lot of sexual violence against women in the world. To me this is not an excuse to have a large amount of sexual violence against women in games. What is uncommon in my reality is stopping on my way home from work to hurl a conjured ball of fire into a crowd of goblin-like creatures. No one bats an eye at the lack of realism when this happens in DA:O. I'd say there is a time and a place where sexual violence might be appropriate for building a game world, perhaps even a fantasy worlds, but personally I'd like a better rational than "well, it happens in the real world."
Finally, your use of overwhelmingly feels a little too assertive for my liking. There are certainly games that avoid the sexual tropes mentioned in Anita's videos. And even though some prominent Bioware titles were featured, I walked away feeling like the company was doing a really good job (not perfect, but good). However, on the aggregate, there is an awful lot of sexual violence and sexual objectification in video games. Is all of this meant to titillate or elicit approval from the audience. Probably not, but I feel that some of it does. Off the top of my head Duke Nukem, God of War (series), Grand Theft Auto (series), Godfather, and Hitman were all games where I felt sexual violence and female objectification was specifically included to titillate or elicit approval. I'm forgetting the names of some others, but it does happen, and I don't think it should be dismissed offhand.
I guess what I'm looking for are some examples of where you think depictions of female violence are helping to move the issue of violence against women forward. I hope that does not sound condescending, because I am legitimately interested in where you think devs have succeeded in this regard, and what future devs could and should emulate. This might help move the discussion to a more productive place.
Thanks for your considered post, thruaglassdarkly.
I’ll discuss your points sequentially, for ease:
1. I absolutely agree that the portrayal of women in games should be a valid topic for discussion. I’d never want to stifle that debate.
2. I do think Anita is trying to imply that most portrayals of sexual violence against women in games are intended to elicit titillation or approval. She confuses the idea that a man might be entertained by a game in which horrific things happen to women with the idea that a man might being entertained by horrific things happening to women in real life. Most men I know enjoy Game of Thrones, not merely because it features rape and brutalised women, but because it thoughtfully portrays a cruel world where these things might take place.
3. I think you’re kind of looking at it backwards if you think game writers, or any kind of artist, needs an “excuse” to portray sexual violence or any other kind of immorality in their work. Their role is to create thoughtful art, and if they treat a sensitive issue like sexual violence towards women clumsily, they will be chastised. Not for being misogynists, but for being inept artists.
4. When I say that it’s appropriate for artists to portray sexual violence, it’s because artists will often understandably want to engage with social or cultural issues which resonate with their audiences.
5. Game writers are perfectly entitled to pick and choose what touchstone issues they want to use to help tell their story, and it is not fair or accurate to assert that if a game wants to portray sexual violence in a way that resonates with how it might occur in real life, then it also needs to be realistic in every other way, otherwise it’s misogynist.
6. I stand by my use of the word “overwhelmingly” because I think that saying that a game is using portrayals of sexual violence against women to titillate or elicit approval is actually an extremely serious accusation, and a high bar to clear. To clarify, I’m distinguishing this from the use of sexual objectification to titillate, which is obviously rampant in all forms of media. But sexual VIOLENCE is another matter, and is very infrequent. For example, I would strongly assert that in the 3 God of War games I’ve played violence in general is used to titillate. It didn’t have to be sexual violence. Any violence will do. And I don’t think I saw Kratos raping a woman or approving or a woman being brutalised simply because she was a woman. He killed a lot of women, often brutally. But that’s pretty much how he interacted with every life form he came across. I don’t think women were singled out.
7. Regarding games like Bioshock and Dragon Age, also singled out by Sarkeesian, I’m baffled as to why she would think these games were promoting or abetting misogynistic portrayals of women. I think the way she presented moments from these games out of context is sleazy tabloidism at its worst.
8. I don’t think game writers need to “move the issue forward” when they present sexualised violence against women in order to be allowed to do so. Just as I don’t think GTA needs to move the issue of drunk driving forward when it allows you to slam a couple of forties then drive a truck through Manhattan.
9. I WILL say that game writers have a responsibility to portray sexualised violence against women as a bad thing, or a thing that only bad people do. But personally, I think that’s as far as it needs to go. And frankly, that’s already a higher bar than we use with any other social ill.
10. For example, I’m fairly left-wing, and when I look at Game of Thrones, I see a bunch of entitled nobles playing with the lives of peasants as if they’re chattel. I think it’s disgusting. That notwithstanding, I’m okay with the writers portraying some of these characters as complex, often sympathetic characters. I don’t need them to be cartoonish villains. Currently, we’re in a place culturally where anyone who is shown in pretty much any form of media to be participating in sexualised violence against women needs to be portrayed as a cartoonish villain. That’s fine, because I recognise it’s a sensitive issue, but we need to recognise how much we’re going out of our way to stigmatise the issue already, and stop making unfair and counterproductive demands of game writers.
Rape wasn't exactly common in Spartan society. Attempted rape was, as well as broken arms and crushed testicles.
Spoiler
Thanks for your considered post, thruaglassdarkly.
I’ll discuss your points sequentially, for ease:
Thanks for the response Wulfsten. For brevity's sake, I removed most of it, but that was considered and respectful, and it helps me understand better where you are coming from.
I will give you Bioshock and Dragon Age. Frankly I thought the Mass Effect 3 promotion argument was a bit of stretch. I'll not go so far as to call it tabloid journalism, but in the context of trying to build a larger argument, a couple of games were unfairly singled out. Obviously, I don't think Dragon Age is misogynistic in the whole, but again, I like when I am occasionally forced to question how I feel about something.
It sounds like you disagree fundamentally on what is fair game in the art world. That is OK, and helps frame our points of view. I do believe that in taking on certain subjects writers and artists have a responsibility to say something that moves the conversation forward. I don't need the villains to be cartoonish, but I do think the bar is raised for the writing/art work and its impact on society. That can be hard to quantify, I know, but there are some works that are obviously presenting serious issues for puerile reasons. Its why most horror films don't work for me. FWIW God of War is generally too cynical and brutal in its presentation for my liking. I quit halfway through the first game when it asked my avatar to murder someone in cold-blood in order to advance (if I remember right, it was a guy I was asked to kill). Anita's argument is a feminist argument, which makes sense on a channel called Feminist Frequency. I'd say there are other topics worth talking about with video game worlds too. Its still a young medium, which in many ways has only recently found those elements that make it unique from other works. There are bound to be some growing pains.
To keep this brief, what I'm hoping comes of all this is a little middle ground. Obviously developers are not going to turn tail and start producing Mario Party knock-offs or princess revenge fantasies. But maybe, just maybe we can produce more Children of Light and fewer Gods of War on a given year. Perhaps the occasional fantasy or sci-fi epic can skip the obligatory brothel/strip club area. Instead, perhaps more writing energy can be dedicated to realistic romantic and sexual relationships that grow over time and do not objectify either party (not unlike what Bioware tries to do, and has improved upon over the course of the last few games). A few more women like Lighting and Laura Croft (the recent iteration) could grace our game covers. And while I don't agree with everything Anita says, she's raised some valid points. I'm glad we are having the conversation; I think there's a right way for each of us to engage each other as we have it, like we are doing now.
Thanks for having that conversation with me.
@thruaglassdarkly
Ok, I have to say that you are one of the most reasonable people I've met on BSN. Sadly, reasonable BSNers are becoming harder and harder to find and bumping into you has made BSN that much brighter. I seriously wish that there were a lot more reasonable people on BSN, but unfortunately, there aren't, so we're stuck with flame wars, trolls, hate, arguments, complaints, whining, etc. crowding the forums and making it one of the more unpleasant places on the internet. At least it isn't as bad as 4chan or the comments on YT videos. Take what you can get, right?
@thruaglassdarkly
Ok, I have to say that you are one of the most reasonable people I've met on BSN. Sadly, reasonable BSNers are becoming harder and harder to find and bumping into you has made BSN that much brighter. I seriously wish that there were a lot more reasonable people on BSN, but unfortunately, there aren't, so we're stuck with flame wars, trolls, hate, arguments, complaints, whining, etc. crowding the forums and making it one of the more unpleasant places on the internet. At least it isn't as bad as 4chan or the comments on YT videos. Take what you can get, right?
Thanks @Gamer072196. You've been pretty nice to talk to as well. "Be the change you'd like to see" is kind of my motto, and I can't very well expect respect if I don't give it in return. I actually like talking to people with different perspectives; it makes me reconsider my own, even when I don't always change my mind completely. I try my best to avoid flame wars. I don't always succeed, but I try. Ultimately games are a great source of joy, so why should we be vicious when we talk about them?
Thanks @Gamer072196. You've been pretty nice to talk to as well. "Be the change you'd like to see" is kind of my motto, and I can't very well expect respect if I don't give it in return. I actually like talking to people with different perspectives; it makes me reconsider my own, even when I don't always change my mind completely. I try my best to avoid flame wars. I don't always succeed, but I try. Ultimately games are a great source of joy, so why should we be vicious when we talk about them?
Unfortunately, the world is far from a perfect place. Some people just enjoy constantly annoying others and others jump to anger too quickly at opposing views. But then, I'm a cynic when it comes to people in general, so my views might be a bit skewed. The thing is, when people get into arguments, they tend to forget that everyone has different views even if they don't agree with them. I mean, why do you think we've had so many religious wars irl?
Really, I don't think humanity will ever work toward a common goal unless it's because of an overwhelming outside threat. Even then, it won't be quick and easy. People will still be trying to settle old grudges, being unwilling to cooperate unless they get something in return, etc. I really want to believe that everyone would drop everything and band together in such a situation, but I know that it will never happen. Seriously, humanity needs to grow up.
Anyway, I'm way off topic now, so I'll stop my mini-rant. If anyone wants to discuss anything I've said, my PM inbox is open.
The real issue is whether the portrayals of sexualised violence are meant to titillate or elicit approval from the audience. This may be the case in a very few games, but overwhelmingly it's not. Anita makes her money off sleazily implying that gamers are actually all hidden misogynists who like seeing women get brutalised in games. The reality, of course, differs.
I have to say, I didn't get that from her videos at all. I think her point was that using sexual violence against women flippantly as contextual flavouring and shorthand for 'this character is evil' trivialises it, and reinforces the notions that 1) it is somehow inevitable, and 2) rape is committed by irredeemably evil 'othered' monsters in dark alleys, rather than (former) friends and confidants of the victim.
Thanks for the response Wulfsten. For brevity's sake, I removed most of it, but that was considered and respectful, and it helps me understand better where you are coming from.
I will give you Bioshock and Dragon Age. Frankly I thought the Mass Effect 3 promotion argument was a bit of stretch. I'll not go so far as to call it tabloid journalism, but in the context of trying to build a larger argument, a couple of games were unfairly singled out. Obviously, I don't think Dragon Age is misogynistic in the whole, but again, I like when I am occasionally forced to question how I feel about something.
It sounds like you disagree fundamentally on what is fair game in the art world. That is OK, and helps frame our points of view. I do believe that in taking on certain subjects writers and artists have a responsibility to say something that moves the conversation forward. I don't need the villains to be cartoonish, but I do think the bar is raised for the writing/art work and its impact on society. That can be hard to quantify, I know, but there are some works that are obviously presenting serious issues for puerile reasons. Its why most horror films don't work for me. FWIW God of War is generally too cynical and brutal in its presentation for my liking. I quit halfway through the first game when it asked my avatar to murder someone in cold-blood in order to advance (if I remember right, it was a guy I was asked to kill). Anita's argument is a feminist argument, which makes sense on a channel called Feminist Frequency. I'd say there are other topics worth talking about with video game worlds too. Its still a young medium, which in many ways has only recently found those elements that make it unique from other works. There are bound to be some growing pains.
To keep this brief, what I'm hoping comes of all this is a little middle ground. Obviously developers are not going to turn tail and start producing Mario Party knock-offs or princess revenge fantasies. But maybe, just maybe we can produce more Children of Light and fewer Gods of War on a given year. Perhaps the occasional fantasy or sci-fi epic can skip the obligatory brothel/strip club area. Instead, perhaps more writing energy can be dedicated to realistic romantic and sexual relationships that grow over time and do not objectify either party (not unlike what Bioware tries to do, and has improved upon over the course of the last few games). A few more women like Lighting and Laura Croft (the recent iteration) could grace our game covers. And while I don't agree with everything Anita says, she's raised some valid points. I'm glad we are having the conversation; I think there's a right way for each of us to engage each other as we have it, like we are doing now.
Thanks for having that conversation with me.
Nice response, thruaglassdarkly, it’s refreshing to actually be able to expand on some of this issues without feeling besieged by assumptions and bitterness!
I think we do disagree fundamentally on an artist’s responsibility. I think I’m happy for artists to experiment with whatever topics, themes, and issues they want to without feeling like they need to justify their use of a certain issue, even if it is sensitive or politically incorrect. Ideally, we would then judge the art on its merits, and the good stuff, which may well “move the issue forward”, as you phrased it, would rise to the top. But I can also see an argument for a more responsible, if limiting, socially conscious way of viewing art.
I agree on God of War, but I don’t think that Anita approaching the issue from a feminist framework helps her argument. A feminist framework is still concerned with the specific role gender plays in social constructions and politics, and if anything, God of War was spectacularly gender-neutral in some senses – everyone got their skulls bashed in by Kratos, man, woman or god. To be sure, there are elements of God of War’s aesthetic which merit serious feminist discussion, like the hypersexualisation of females and the hypermasculinisation of males, and what that looks like, but we were talking specifically about women being singled out for violence, and specifically sexual violence. I haven’t seen much evidence that GoW was guilty of that.
Just because Anita is approaching with a feminist lens does not justify an argument that anything bad happening to a woman in a video game is happening to that woman BECAUSE she is a woman. And this is only a slight oversimplification of her argument – she literally shows clips that are decontextualized instances of a woman being attacked, hurt, or killed, as evidence that the game as a whole features misogynistic violence.
I agree that games should absolutely mature and become more nuanced in how they tell stories and approach issues of social relevance. Personally, I think gaming is still in its infancy, and most narratives in video games are childish and embarrassingly crude. There are some exceptions – Gone Home is one of my favourite works of art, and the games you named are also excellent. I think gaming is moving in the right direction, and very quickly, too, despite the efforts of mainstream media journalists covering gamergate.
I have to say, I didn't get that from her videos at all. I think her point was that using sexual violence against women flippantly as contextual flavouring and shorthand for 'this character is evil' trivialises it, and reinforces the notions that 1) it is somehow inevitable, and 2) rape is committed by irredeemably evil 'othered' monsters in dark alleys, rather than (former) friends and confidants of the victim.
Thanks for chiming in, Ferretinabun! 
Well, Anita explicitly defines the use of violence against women to convey edginess or darkness in games as being intended to “titillate a presumed straight male audience”. Your version of her argument actually works much better than what she actually says.
Her confused argument ranges back and forth from asserting that women are merely used to provide “edgy” scaffolding for a game world, to claiming that female corpses are used to create a “sexually charged” mood. These are two very, very different claims, and she knowingly blurs the two together, along with decontextualized and disparate video game clips.
The end result is that you have no idea what game she’s actually talking about, or even what her specific criticism is of a specific clip. So you end up thinking that Dragon Age is a misogynist game that tries to titillate its players by depicting sexual violence. Or that Red Dead is all about buying the lives of prostitutes from pimps, despite the fact that both these games prominently feature remarkable, complex and strong female characters who are actually quite desexualised (Flemeth and Wynne, in the former, or Bonnie in the latter).
She would have been much fairer to discuss in depth a specific game, pointing out what her actual problems were with an actual game. Instead, she presents an argument that’s difficult to engage with, because it’s literally all over the place. I believe she does this intentionally, because it’s a technique seen in the arsenals of two-bit corrupt politicians and tabloid journalists.
Reading you people makes me happy that i never had any desire to live in the citadel of democracy.
Anyway i will cite wikipedia about Anita: "the backlash has only made her point for her: Gaming has a problem"
gaming has a problem. is it? what is plot of the game if not a reflection of our lifes? so maybe instead of inflicting pressure on gaming industry, humans like Anita Sarkeesian should focus on RL problems. The very same RL problems which actually serve as a background for violence, sexual harassment and all kind of 'bad' stuff in the video games.
but i bet fighting real life is not so profitable.
Nice response, thruaglassdarkly, it’s refreshing to actually be able to expand on some of this issues without feeling besieged by assumptions and bitterness!
I think we do disagree fundamentally on an artist’s responsibility. I think I’m happy for artists to experiment with whatever topics, themes, and issues they want to without feeling like they need to justify their use of a certain issue, even if it is sensitive or politically incorrect. Ideally, we would then judge the art on its merits, and the good stuff, which may well “move the issue forward”, as you phrased it, would rise to the top. But I can also see an argument for a more responsible, if limiting, socially conscious way of viewing art.
I agree on God of War, but I don’t think that Anita approaching the issue from a feminist framework helps her argument. A feminist framework is still concerned with the specific role gender plays in social constructions and politics, and if anything, God of War was spectacularly gender-neutral in some senses – everyone got their skulls bashed in by Kratos, man, woman or god. To be sure, there are elements of God of War’s aesthetic which merit serious feminist discussion, like the hypersexualisation of females and the hypermasculinisation of males, and what that looks like, but we were talking specifically about women being singled out for violence, and specifically sexual violence. I haven’t seen much evidence that GoW was guilty of that.
Just because Anita is approaching with a feminist lens does not justify an argument that anything bad happening to a woman in a video game is happening to that woman BECAUSE she is a woman. And this is only a slight oversimplification of her argument – she literally shows clips that are decontextualized instances of a woman being attacked, hurt, or killed, as evidence that the game as a whole features misogynistic violence.
I agree that games should absolutely mature and become more nuanced in how they tell stories and approach issues of social relevance. Personally, I think gaming is still in its infancy, and most narratives in video games are childish and embarrassingly crude. There are some exceptions – Gone Home is one of my favourite works of art, and the games you named are also excellent. I think gaming is moving in the right direction, and very quickly, too, despite the efforts of mainstream media journalists covering gamergate.
Thanks for chiming in, Ferretinabun!
Well, Anita explicitly defines the use of violence against women to convey edginess or darkness in games as being intended to “titillate a presumed straight male audience”. Your version of her argument actually works much better than what she actually says.
Her confused argument ranges back and forth from asserting that women are merely used to provide “edgy” scaffolding for a game world, to claiming that female corpses are used to create a “sexually charged” mood. These are two very, very different claims, and she knowingly blurs the two together, along with decontextualized and disparate video game clips.
The end result is that you have no idea what game she’s actually talking about, or even what her specific criticism is of a specific clip. So you end up thinking that Dragon Age is a misogynist game that tries to titillate its players by depicting sexual violence. Or that Red Dead is all about buying the lives of prostitutes from pimps, despite the fact that both these games prominently feature remarkable, complex and strong female characters who are actually quite desexualised (Flemeth and Wynne, in the former, or Bonnie in the latter).
She would have been much fairer to discuss in depth a specific game, pointing out what her actual problems were with an actual game. Instead, she presents an argument that’s difficult to engage with, because it’s literally all over the place. I believe she does this intentionally, because it’s a technique seen in the arsenals of two-bit corrupt politicians and tabloid journalists.
@Wulfsten
I think this will be my final post on the thread since everyone pretty much knows where I'm coming from by this point. So in conclusion, thanks for the thoughtful argument. These are exactly the kinds of arguments people should have started with before the whole thing spiraled into a PBS documentary. Anita is not right about everything, there is another side to this story. But when people are immediately dismissive of the issue, when they fail to address the issue at hand, or worse, when they become hyper-aggressive, it makes all gamers look petulant. Gaming does have problems, but there are really wonderful things in the medium as well. What I liked about your argument is it focused on the ways many games, specially three she mentioned, portray women in a favorable light. I think, in each case, these games (mostly gaming in general) can do a little better. I still love Dragon Age, and even though Anita's argument has had me thinking about the content more, I never at any point felt that the game was so troubling I should stop playing. You and I are probably not very far apart on this.
My final thought is this: perhaps the best thing to do, about women in games and other issues, is to change the conversation. More frequently we should talk about what is special about video games, what they are doing right. This medium, in its infancy though it might be, has still produced moments for me that I couldn't recreate viewing a film or reading a book. There's magic in interactive media that doesn't exist anywhere else. The other day I came across this thread: http://forum.bioware...nk-you-bioware/ .
Now that didn't sound anything like the popular narrative surrounding gamers. That made me feel awesome. I could write something similar about Shadow of the Colossus or Child of Light. Furthermore, this letter of appreciation illustrates the best argument I've heard against the refrain that games have a problem: yes, a game can show us how the world is ugly, but it can also show us how the world is beautiful too.
yes, a game can show us how the world is ugly, but it can also show us how the world is beautiful too.
... wow. and i here i thought that in order to see all that i just have to leave the house.
Reading you people makes me happy that i never had any desire to live in the citadel of democracy.
Anyway i will cite wikipedia about Anita: "the backlash has only made her point for her: Gaming has a problem"
gaming has a problem. is it? what is plot of the game if not a reflection of our lifes? so maybe instead of inflicting pressure on gaming industry, humans like Anita Sarkeesian should focus on RL problems. The very same RL problems which actually serve as a background for violence, sexual harassment and all kind of 'bad' stuff in the video games.
but i bet fighting real life is not so profitable.
Games are a form of art and media culture. And culture is "real life". Being concerned about games, culture, and the way culture has effects on people in their everyday lives is vitally important.
I hope even you wouldn't say that the portrayal of women as inferior less worthwhile in film, literature and video games could not have any effect on the treatment of women in society more generally...
Didn't see this yesterday. Thanks.
I hope even you wouldn't say that the portrayal of women as inferior less worthwhile in film, literature and video games could not have any effect on the treatment of women in society more generally...
hmm. but i am stronger and faster than a woman. i have specific hormons which make me superior in physical competition or conflict. basically the only thing that keeping me from enforcing my dominance on woman is social, physical, emotional, intellectual development. the very same thing that keeping me from commiting a crime.
you see, what this Anita is trying to do is to cure sympthoms, not the disease. Which means she is either that stupid to run in circles, or she exploiting this aspect of live to make some money and/or fame.
Films, video games, literature - these things do not shape the consciousness of human being. Proper parenting and education shape consciousness of the human being.
p.s. and don't you forget that humans are still animals. which means bigger and stronger may exploit smaller and weaker.
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