417 réponses à ce sujet

[Brogan]

Have you played the previous games? Normally one cannot move when the game is paused. 

Where did I say that?  Pause allows you to stop time and readjust your positioning before you un-pause.

[Joe-Poe]

No, that's what they've said. If you select a target and give a standard attack command in Tac Cam, the character will attack that enemy again and again until you give him a different command.

What we don't know is if the selected character will automatically revert to the standard attack after using an ability.

Ahh well I hope it works like that then, just wished we didn't have to be in tac mode for auto-attack.....makes no sense..  

[Brogan]

No, it doesn't ^^

[finc.loki]

BioWare has never made a turn-based game.

BioWare pioneered Real-Time-with-Pause (RTwP) gameplay. It allows the game to be played in real time, which you like, or paused to issue commands with no time pressures, which I like.

RTwP is a terrific design. It gives both of us what we want.

But all commands should be issuable while paused, so removing the basic attack from that category seems more than a little weird.

Previously, the only (non-Jade Empire) BioWare game that did something similar was KotOR, which didn't allow us to issue movement commands while paused. Movement could only be done in real time, making KotOR easily the most real-time of BioWare's RTwP games. Even ME let us issue some movement commands while paused. So you calling KotOR turn-based confuses me.

What?

 

All commands should NOT be issued while paused. That is not even CLOSE to a real time game so it does not give me what I want as you say.

KOTOR was just like that, it was pause and then issue commands in a queue and then unpause.

I hated that game mechanic so much I couldn't even finish the game. It was retarded beyond comprehension for me. No one in this Universe can ever tell me that was a smart game design. What was the point of it? Made me feel like a stupid monkey that needed a pause to hit a trigger button. There is a reason why you don't see games using such game design.

 

DA is perfectly fine because it IS in real time, or you can pause it.

 

I am cool with you getting your "pause" game, I like to play my games in real time, I can use tactics and think on my feet in real time, I would only see a need for a pause here and there in a particularly hard setting or enemy.

 

Why do YOU feel the need to remove that option from me and people that like real time?

[Brogan]

What?

 

All commands should NOT be issued while paused.

 

He obviously meant the game should allow all commands to be issued while paused.

 

And he is 100% correct.

[xkg]

KOTOR was just like that, it was pause and then issue commands in a queue and then unpause.

Made me feel like a stupid monkey that needed a pause to hit a trigger button. There is a reason why you don't see games using such game design.

 

In KOTOR you can use normal attacks / special attacks / queue commands in real time. No need to pause.

Have you even played it ?

[finc.loki]

Positioning and timing?  You realize we have a Pause feature, right?  You are allowed to manipulate both positioning AND time ...  at all times.

 

This makes no sense.

It makes no sense to you and players that play pause because, with the risk of sounding rude, you guys/gals seem completely inept at thinking in real time.

 

If you ONLY play in real time auto attack is not needed you constantly move hit an attack and readjust, perhaps select a new target, moving around on the battlefield and when off cooldown/stamina/mana back you hit the hard hitting specials. You also prioritize your own abilities for what is best suited on a particular enemy.

You can use auto-attack ( if it existed), because maybe you have an issue hitting a button too often? 

 

We expect the party member AI to be smart enough or at the very least EQUAL to the enemy AI to handle itself. Or, we just jump to the party member and use the needed ability. 

 

We prefer an AI tactics setup where we can via script stipulate our party members behaviours and actions. Always start a taunt against a shielded enemy (for Cassandra, Blackwall), if no shield taunt next enemy bla bla. Have ranged party members always stay back, drink health potion when health below 25% etc.

 

That is what we prefer.

We end up pausing only when there is a very large group or an enemy is very hard and we need for example one huge combined hit from all party members.

Setting up a combo with ICE from solas, Ironbull doing his best heavy hit against disabled enemies and you get where I am going with this.

 

This is a game where, when you reach high difficulty levels more pause and play is required. 

 

You are talking as we have to use pause, or that it is smarter to use pause to mitigate your own inability to use abilities and handle an enemy unless you get to "think" about what to do in a PAUSED state. I do not need that for a fight with 2 archers and an enemy with a Shield. With a proper AI party script I can have Cassandra challenge/taunt the Shielded enemy by herself and Solas do a barrier spell as an opener and then a good AOE spell etc. Varric hangs back shooting his arrows and me doing the same as an Archer (if that is what I play). Why would I need to pause? I know I will win it, it's just a normal fight, I can just change my tactic on the fly. 

What they have done to try and make it harder is limitation of healing, and hard hitting bosses, hell even some of the plebs hit pretty hard. Or even in Real time you can face-roll through most fights.

 

On hard/nightmare mode I can see the use for pause and play more, but ONLY because they basically forced the game INTO that state.

[finc.loki]

He obviously meant the game should allow all commands to be issued while paused.

 

And he is 100% correct.

And? Since when have that not been the case? Talking combat here.

His wording was also that the game should be aimed towards it, excluding normal real time play.

[finc.loki]

In KOTOR you can use normal attacks / special attacks / queue commands in real time. No need to pause.

Have you even played it ?

Yes, it was awful. It was literally a game working against my own abilities as thinking human being.

The dumbest system ever.

 

Full TB I can understand, it just plays that way, still hate it but it makes logical sense in it's own context.

 

KOTOR was a nightmare that way, I have a blaster or a sword/saber I just want to use it, not queue up attacks.

This is beyond retarded, playing in real time but with TB like misses and calculations and not being able to be free in your actions:

 

https://www.youtube....UTNv8hqok#t=400

[xkg]

^ In case of double post just click "Hide" button. It will disappear.

[finc.loki]

OK, did it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

What?

All commands should NOT be issued while paused. That is not even CLOSE to a real time game so it does not give me what I want as you say.
KOTOR was just like that, it was pause and then issue commands in a queue and then unpause.

You could play it that way, or you could play in real time, just like DAO. They even used basically the same engine.

KotOR had auto-pause features which would pause the game automatically, but they were configurable by the player. Maybe you just didn't turn them off.

[Gtdef]

I honestly cant see that happening.

 

With the right tactics set, it would take out any sense of danger in the game. Health <10% > Pause etc

 

No chance that will happen.

 

You assume that the player will be able to deal with the situation. What difference does it make if the 10% character is targeted by an archer and there are no defensive spells left?

 

And why this tactic is more safe than lets say Health < 10% -> Stealth?  or Health < 10% -> Barrier, or whatever.

The only extra thing it does is help with a new player with awareness. Which again is overkill because a new player will spam pause every 5 seconds anyway.

 

The idea here is that instead of having a 

clustered enemies -> cast fireball

 

and miss half of the intended targets or damage a friendly, to allow us to target the fireball ourselves. Easier manual control over companion abilities.

 

Or instead of 

Enemy: Attacking Dorian -> Taunt, 

 

To have the option of choosing what ability we want to use instead of potentially wasting a taunt on a low health enemy.

 

Now the only option we have is to add the same conditions for 5 different abilities and make 3844753845 tweaks in order to avoid skills overlapping. This is boring and counterintuitive. The point of tactics is to make the non controlled characters to respond to your style, not to game the system in order to achieve something that works better than intended.

 

My tactic for taunt in DA2 was like that

 

Aveline

 

1.Enemy: Melee -> Use condition for next

2.Enemy: Attacking Anders -> Attack

3.Anders: Health > 75% -> Jump to 5

4.Enemy: Attacking Anders -> Taunt

5.Whatever

 

4 slots for a tactic that won't work if anders is already under 75% health and can't deal with ranged at all because till aveline reaches them in melee, anders may go under 75% health and she will taunt the air.

 

Change this to 

Enemy: Attacking Anders -> Pause

 

And suddenly everything is so much simple. If I feel I need to taunt or barrier I will, if not I will pull Anders back. Easy.

 

The problem is that pause in tactics would require a button that disables them. Otherwise the game will probably keep pausing again and again as long as the condition is met.

[Brogan]

^^  That's why it'd be nice if we got another pc stream that deals with subtler details like tactics and overlapping control scheme keymaps.

[Vanth]

Where did I say that?  Pause allows you to stop time and readjust your positioning before you un-pause.

 

Lol. No. You can't 'readjust your position' because you can't move. You can readjust the camera and issue new orders but you can't move. The position of your character does not change. That is why it is called pause.

[Brogan]

Your comment was:

If auto-attack is useful it is showing that the combat is poorly designed. Attacking without using a skill should require positioning and timing.

I don't know what game series you are trying to describe with this statement but it's not DA. So I categorically disagree with your premise that auto attack, in a party based RPG with a Pause feature, shouldn't be a part of the combat system.

[Shadowson]

Lol. No. You can't 'readjust your position' because you can't move. You can readjust the camera and issue new orders but you can't move. The position of your character does not change. That is why it is called pause.

 

technically you can but also at the same time technically you can't. Its semantics, technically you can as you can issue new orders for your party to move into position after you unpause, but, technically you can't as the game is paused and you can't move.

 

But yeah anyways personally i dont see the issue with the auto attack and how its been implemented. Like how can it be fun to just move your team to a point and then sit back and have a beer as one poster has said and watch the team auto attack their way to victory. Where is the actual challenge in that? You might as well jump on twitch or youtube and watch a lets play at that stage. 

 

Anywho, i guess if people want that and bioware can patch it in for them then why not? it's not going to take away from how i'll play.

[Brogan]

Like how can it be fun to just move your team to a point and then sit back and have a beer as one poster has said and watch the team auto attack their way to victory. Where is the actual challenge in that? You might as well jump on twitch or youtube and watch a lets play at that stage. 

 

It really is amazing how far apart some people's ideals of what's fun or challenging. 

 

Of course what you're describing doesn't really exist.  The whole point of making a game pause-able, is so that you can set things up tactically and see if they work, but with a well programmed AI, it almost never works perfectly.  Go back to BG, BG2, TOB, IWD, IWD2 (if you played them).  Look at all the encounters where your whole party gets wiped out because of a simple tactical change you should of made.  And then the next time you had a similar fight, you adjusted.  Then something else would pop up (that damn nymph party on the beach with their sleep spells) that you aren't ready for.  So you do it again and adjust.

 

And really, auto-attack technically shouldn't even be a part of that argument because it's just a minor detail when you talk about full party combat.  But you're talking about it as if it's the only way we would attack.  No, the point is aa needs to remain a minor detail because it's what fills in those gaps between spells, abilities, and their cooldown times. 

 

If you'd like to (or have no problem with) spending those in between moments manically mashing your mouse buttons or keyboard in order to auto attack, that is fantastic, go crazy.  Your preferred playstyle doesn't affect those who don't like to play that way (and have never had to in a pause-based RPG, btw). 

 

But now they are going to force the way you play on everyone?  No, that sucks, and the people who are affected by it don't need you telling them you are fine with it.

[Todd23]

I've said in am older thread that adding pause in tactics could be a good idea.

Adding a tactic
3 clustered -> Fireball

isn't much different than
3 clustered -> Pause

As long as we can identify what the trigger is (for multiple pause tactics).

I'd prefer a double condition or exception addition to the tactics.
If 3 clustered AND self mana > 25% -use fireball UNLESS rooted.
I've hoped for more complexity like this since Origins.

[Shadowson]

 

 

Of course what you're describing doesn't really exist.

 

Except it can exist, with tactics, and the AI you can let your team AA for the win.

 

 

 

And really, auto-attack technically shouldn't even be a part of that argument because it's just a minor detail when you talk about full party combat. 

 

And yet here we have numerous topics on the matter

 

 

 

Your preferred playstyle doesn't affect those who don't like to play that way (and have never had to in a pause-based RPG, btw). 

 

Yea i kinda said that in my previous post, along with how it would be cool if BioWare could patch in a fix for you guys who wanted it.

 

 

 

But now they are going to force the way you play on everyone?

 

No they still have AA in Tac Cam

 

 

 

the people who are affected by it don't need you telling them you are fine with it.

 

You really should get the OP to edit the title then to state that only certain opinions are valid on this topic then, but given that you have said it has affected everyone kinda baffles me.

[Ieldra]

It makes no sense to you and players that play pause because, with the risk of sounding rude, you guys/gals seem completely inept at thinking in real time.

And here we have it again, the elitist hardcore gamer mindset. I think this is a detestable attitude.

Tell me, if I'm playing a mage who stands back from the fighting, and if nobody's bothering him, and everyone else is doing exactly what they should because I put significant effort into setting up the tactics screen, why...

(1) ...I should want to to anything with my mage but auto-attacking until the spell I want to use is off cooldown or until I have enough mana regenerated?
(2) ...my ability to set up tactics that result in a less hectic battle is less notable and should be catered to less than your ability to control a full party competently in real-time.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But yeah anyways personally i dont see the issue with the auto attack and how its been implemented. Like how can it be fun to just move your team to a point and then sit back and have a beer as one poster has said and watch the team auto attack their way to victory. Where is the actual challenge in that?

The challenge is in building your party and setting your tactics. That's why we complain when classes become more limited in their scope, because it makes it easier to build an adequate character. I would rather the challenge arise from choosing abilities and tactics rather than pressing buttons faster.

Assuming the player even wants combat to be challenging.

[Gtdef]

I'd prefer a double condition or exception addition to the tactics.
If 3 clustered AND self mana > 25% -use fireball UNLESS rooted.
I've hoped for more complexity like this since Origins.

 

Technically you can do it with current tactics, it just takes 3 slots.

 

It will have to look something like this

1.Self:Mana < 25% -> Jump to 4

2.Self: Rooted -> Jump to 4

3.Enemy: Clustered with 3 -> Fireball

4.Whatever

 

And there is a chance that it will bug out.  

[Brogan]

Except it can exist, with tactics, and the AI you can let your team AA for the win.

You mean an ideal situation, OK.  But like I said, a good system with solid AI programming would create a constant learning curve.  It's been part pf RPGs forever.

And yet here we have numerous topics on the matter

No, your argument in this post, not the concept we are discussing in the thread.

No they still have AA in Tac Cam.  You really should get the OP to edit the title then to state that only certain opinions are valid on this topic then, but given that you have said it has affected everyone kinda baffles me.

And they don't have it in Standard Cam.  See?  Removing the option in any cam is forcing everyone who plays the game, to play without it in some form or another.  Not quite sure what's so baffling.  And I don't think the OP was worried about valid opinions or poor reading comprehension when he created it.  We didn't need a 2nd thread on it regardless.

[Brogan]

The challenge is in building your party and setting your tactics. That's why we complain when classes become more limited in their scope, because it makes it easier to build an adequate character. I would rather the challenge arise from choosing abilities and tactics rather than pressing buttons faster.

Assuming the player even wants combat to be challenging.

 

He was trying to explain his viewpoint with the assumption that everyone plays (or should play) the same exact way.  Problem is the DA series has always allowed multiple ways to play the game, and specifically because of the feature he is denouncing.

 

These kinds of disagreements are inevitable with games that are programmed well enough to allow diversity.