152 réponses à ce sujet

[Mrs_Stick]

I have a question for the community here. I am at a lose on how to make this part of the Cerberus story work in my head. 

 

In ME2 your working with/for (depending on your view) Cerberus to take down the Collectors

In ME3 James tells you that his squad was betrayed during a Collector attack by a Cerberus Agent working with the Collectors

 

This is where I am confused. At no point in ME2 does the Illusive Man seem Indoctrinated that comes later in parts of ME3. So was Cerberus already Indoctrinated when Shepard was with them? If so then why was the Illusive Man trying to take down the Collectors? Where humans supposed to replace them? 

 

I am at such a lose on this one nothing I can think of makes sense. Is there information in the books that would make sense on this? Or does anyone have a good story to link the 2 instances together that would help me make sense of it. I am playing through ME2 right now and thinking about this is making me go a little nutty.

 

any opinions would be greatly appreciated 

 

[cap and gown]

Some people have argued that TIM was subtly indoctrinated in ME2 (actually, since the first contact war) and was actually trying to get Shepard killed. I don't agree with that line of thinking, but its out there. So why would this Cerberus agent be working with the Collectors? Seems outrageous until you think of Dr. Aloy from the Firewalker DLC who sold out to the Collectors (although how the Geth get involved, I have no idea) to protect his family that was living on a colony world. Other reasons for betrayal might be greed, blackmail, who knows. Still, you are right, it is rather jarring when James mentions a Cerberus guy working with the Collectors.

[Mrs_Stick]

Is Tim being Indoctrinated before ME3 in the books? I really should read them shouldn't I.

[Kabooooom]

There are two explanations for this. The first is that TIM was not indoctrinated during ME2, and that he merely exhibited ambition without particular regard to morals - the end justified the means. Cerberus used an agent to contact the Collectors in order to sacrifice Fehl Prime, similar to what they did on Horizon. This is in the Paragon Lost movie.

The second explanation, which is one that I favor and so do many other people on these forums - is that TIM was somewhat indoctrinated during ME2 in part due to his prior exposure to a reaper artifact in the first contact war, and in part due to known continued exposure to Reaper tech (we know he acquired tech from Sovereign after the battle of the Citadel). Indoctrination is not an all or nothing event - there are gradations of it. In fact, the Reapers PREFER an indoctrinated servant who largely maintains his or her free will, as the more control they exert through indoctrination, the less useful the slave becomes. Indeed, Saren was slowly indoctrinated over several decades for exactly this purpose.

In that view, many of TIM's seemingly reckless or unnecessary actions in ME2 can be viewed as literally aiding the Reapers. The alternative is to accept that his actions merely coincidentally worked in the Reapers favor - which they did. Regardless, strong evidence suggests that he was significantly indoctrinated by the start of Mass Effect 3 (many people seem to miss this plot point) and fully indoctrinated by the end of it.

[SporkFu]

That whole thing with James never made sense to me, but maybe I should finish Paragon Lost first. As for Tim, I dunno that he was indoctrinated in ME2, but I don't believe he was doing what he was doing just to save humans from the collectors either.

[Kabooooom]

And, if we are to conclude that he was significantly indoctrinated at the start of ME3 - as characters in the story start suggesting as early as the Mars mission (literally, bioware really beats you over the head with it throughout ME3 but people still don't think he was indoctrinated until the end), then really the only question is when his indoctrination actually began. Was it after ME2? Or was it prior to ME2? We don't actually know for certain. But we DO know that he had significant exposure to Reaper tech prior to ME2...for what its worth.

This, I might add, was a bit of an asspull. His FCW background story was added via comic after ME2 to build up his character more before ME3. Honestly, this really suggests to me that the writers were trying to retroactively go with the "he was indoctrinated all along" plot.

[Mrs_Stick]

And, if we are to conclude that he was significantly indoctrinated at the start of ME3 - as characters in the story start suggesting as early as the Mars mission (literally, bioware really beats you over the head with it throughout ME3 but people still don't think he was indoctrinated until the end), then really the only question is when his indoctrination actually began. Was it after ME2? Or was it prior to ME2? We don't actually know for certain. But we DO know that he had significant exposure to Reaper tech prior to ME2...for what its worth.

This, I might add, was a bit of an asspull. His FCW background story was added via comic after ME2 to build up his character more before ME3. Honestly, this really suggests to me that the writers were trying to retroactively go with the "he was indoctrinated all along" plot.

 

Why could they not give us some of that in the game to make sense of it!!! O M G Bioware O M G

 

(I figured he was indoctrinated in the beginning when you find the Cerberus guy with reaper tech shoved in his head making him look like a husk and all the Illusive man says is "Being Improved")

 

Is all of the info on the Illusive Man in the Comics or is some of it in the books? I have not read them yet but if they might help me make more sense of the ME Universe I would read them. 

[Kabooooom]

Why could they not give us some of that in the game to make sense of it!!! O M G Bioware O M G

(I figured he was indoctrinated in the beginning when you find the Cerberus guy with reaper tech shoved in his head making him look like a husk and all the Illusive man says is "Being Improved")

Is all of the info on the Illusive Man in the Comics or is some of it in the books? I have not read them yet but if they might help me make more sense of the ME Universe I would read them.

His exposure to a reaper artifact during the First Contact War is in the comics. The books don't elucidate much about his character, but they present the Grayson story arc and Cerberus experimentation in Reaper cyberaugmentation of humans - which is how Cerberus creates their army of shock troopers prior to the start of ME3. So in that way, the plot is bridged a bit.

And indeed, on Mars you can actually tell the Illusive Man that you suspect he is indoctrinated, and then converse with Anderson and Hackett about him being Indoctrinated shortly thereafter. Many characters in the story actually take it at face value that he is Indoctrinated, and express surprise or confusion when his actions are seemingly contradictory, such as on Horizon.

[Excella Gionne]

The Illusive Man was not indoctrinated until he implanted the Reaper tech into himself. You can find the video logs within the Cerberus HQ before you enter his private room. You have to be near the console to see an interactive marker, because it doesn't pre-highlight itself.

 

If you have read Mass Effect: Evolution, you'd know how the Illusive Man got his eyes and why he believes so strongly in his beliefs. In ME3, BioWare sort of took it the easy way out. He's clearly trying to use Reaper tech to enhance humans, thus, the indoctrinated Cerberus troops. By using Reaper tech to further his desire to control the Reapers, he became lost in his lust for control. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

You see, there are actually three version of Cerberus, the writers had it all planned out. Why do you think they are called Cerberus? The name is not a coincidence. What's a Cerberus? A three headed dog. What is Cerberus? An idea, well, three ideas; one for each game.

 

Don't believe me, I'll give you more proof. What does a Cerberus do? It prevents the living from entering hell. Cerberus was destined to resurrect Shepard. Shepard's a living legend, so he can't go to hell, so TIM comes up with the Lazarus project to prevent that. Cerberus's, the hellhound not the group, have a tail of a serpent and a mane of snakes. TIM is quite snake like. And lion's claws. Cerberus is one of the most dangerous groups in the galaxy, they have the paws of a fearsome beast. Who finally defeats Cerberus in Greek lore, Hercules, a big gaddamn here. Do you know who else is a big goddamn hero and brings down a Cerberus, Shepard.

 

The proof is there. It all makes sense.

[Excella Gionne]

This the the only Cerberus I know of: 

[Kabooooom]

The Illusive Man was not indoctrinated until he implanted the Reaper tech into himself. You can find the video logs within the Cerberus HQ before you enter his private room. You have to be near the console to see an interactive marker, because it doesn't pre-highlight itself.

This is actually a common misconception, in my opinion. There is exactly zero evidence to suggest that he was not indoctrinated until he implanted Reaper tech into himself, and indeed a large amount of evidence that suggests otherwise. All the videos actually show is that he decided to implant himself with tech. Thats all.

Most likely, the implantation was merely to strengthen his resolve near the end, similar to what they did with Saren.

And again, countless characters throughout the game comment not only on how Cerberus is indirectly aiding the Reapers, but also on how TIM is likely indoctrinated. This begins in the second mission of the game, and is repeatedly brought up to the point that characters are actually confused when TIM seems to be opposing the Reapers on Sanctuary...because literally everyone seems to think he was Indoctrinated and Cerberus were pawns of the Reapers.

Did the writers do all that just to point out how everyone was wrong about TIM being indoctrinated throughout the entirety of ME3? Unlikely. Rather, they wanted to drive the point home. But, it was executed very poorly, and thus people think he was indoctrinated when he implanted himself...because the next time you see him, he is quite clearly and unambiguously indoctrinated. So players link the two events in their mind and ignore the rest of the story. Many people also seem to think that if he were indoctrinated, he could not have created Sanctuary. Again, this is false. To counter this argument (really basic Codex knowledge disproves it), I point out that Saren created an entire research facility to study indoctrination on Virmire while he was unambiguously indoctrinated. The reason for this, as I said, is because the Reapers actually allow their slaves to have a degree of free will, in order to make them more useful.

There's also evidence from the Codex that the indoctrination didn't begin late in the story like that. We know that rapid indoctrination is possible...but it leaves the individual as a mindless slave. Slow, patient indoctrination results in what you see with Saren and with TIM's final moments - a coherent, but flawed individual who truly believes what they are saying, but against their own will.

So yeah, to me it seems pretty obvious that TIM was indoctrinated for the entirety of ME3. I question whether or not he was indoctrinated during ME2 as well, but it would make some of his actions more illuminating if he were.

[mybudgee]

"Enemies Everywhere!"
Remember this battle cry from ME1? All the Cerb agents were paraniod because of indoctrination since Eden Prime, including their leader.
/thread

[Excella Gionne]

This is actually a common misconception. There is exactly zero evidence to suggest that he was not indoctrinated until he implanted Reaper tech into himself, and indeed a large amount of evidence that suggests otherwise. All the videos actually show is that he decided to implant himself with tech. Thats all.

Most likely, the implantation was merely to strengthen his resolve near the end, similar to what they did with Saren.

And again, countless characters throughout the game comment not only on how Cerberus is indirectly aiding the Reapers, but also on how TIM is likely indoctrinated. This begins in the second mission of the game, and is repeatedly brought up to the point that characters are actually confused when TIM seems to be opposing the Reapers on Sanctuary...because literally everyone seems to think he was Indoctrinated and Cerberus were pawns of the Reapers.

Did the writers do all that just to point out how everyone was wrong about TIM being indoctrinated throughout the entirety of ME3? Unlikely. Rather, they wanted to drive the point home. But, it was executed very poorly, and thus people think he was indoctrinated when he implanted himself...because the next time you see him, he is quite clearly and unambiguously indoctrinated. So players link the two events in their mind and ignore the rest of the story.

But you don't need to be indoctrinated to aid the Reapers as well. My interpretation is that he was fixated on controlling the Reapers that he decided to test it on his own troops as well. As Henry Lawson and TIM experimented on creating a signal that would alter the reaper tech's function inside the Reaper troops, this gave him hope that he "could" control the Reapers. Since TIM is pro-humanity, seeing the Reapers for the first time may have given him hope that with the right tools he could control such monstrous machines. And when he is able to control the Reapers, all would bow before the might of humanity, or TIM, I guess. 

 

Given that the Reapers are so powerful, nothing is more important than controlling them and giving humanity its dominance over the galaxy. TIM was super desperate, and maybe that made him look like he was indoctrinacted. but when he finally implanted himself with Reaper tech that was specially designed for himself that was when he truly became indoctrinated. He didn't know that he was becoming a pawn for the Reapers until Shep gives him the 4th Charm option which makes him realize that whatever he's done has further advanced the Reaper's progress. When he begins to doubt himself, that was when the Reapers tried to seize control of him. I believe the Reapers didn't bother to control TIM since TIM's inevitable failure would come sooner or later.

 

Another version of this scenario is that is becomes indoctrinated when Cerberus retrieves the Human Proto-Reaper. Given that the Reaper corpse is not properly contained, and that TIM's office is so close to it may have made him become indoctrinated, but then this would seem odd since Shepard and two squadmates entered a Reaper and were not indoctrinated.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

There are a whole lot of things about Cerberus that don't make sense.

 

I find Tim's turn less jarring than the fact that a reclusive terrorist organization in Mass Effect, a few years later, suddenly has one of the galaxy's largest armies, largest fleets, most advanced technology, and the ability to wage war against humanity and the council so effectively as to capture the Crucible.

[Han Shot First]

The Illusive Man was indoctrinated for the entirety of Mass Effect 3. He spends the entire game essentially aiding the Reapers as a fifth column, and trying to sabotage the Crucicle project. It's quite obvious that he's just a Reaper puppet from Mars onward. and had probably been under some degree of indoctrination in Mass Effect 2 as well. The Reaper implants just placed him more firmly under the Reapers thumbs, similar to how Saren's post-Virmire 'upgrades' made him more indoctrinated. Saren has a quote about how he had some doubts about the course he was on after Virmire, but the implants stiffened his resolve. I think a similar thing was going on with TIM. He was being slowly and subtly indoctrinated over the years, and the implants just made him entirely the Reapers' slave.

[Jerkules17]

Poor TIM,he was very charming,I would have follow him to hell,and back.   I enjoyed working with him,despite my paragon style. At least he died by his own hand,instead of being shot like a mad dog. My favorite kind of (anti)villain. 

[Kabooooom]

But you don't need to be indoctrinated to aid the Reapers as well. My interpretation is that he was fixated on controlling the Reapers that he decided to test it on his own troops as well. As Henry Lawson and TIM experimented on creating a signal that would alter the reaper tech's function inside the Reaper troops, this gave him hope that he "could" control the Reapers. Since TIM is pro-humanity, seeing the Reapers for the first time may have given him hope that with the right tools he could control such monstrous machines. And when he is able to control the Reapers, all would bow before the might of humanity, or TIM, I guess.

Given that the Reapers are so powerful, nothing is more important than controlling them and giving humanity its dominance over the galaxy. TIM was super desperate, and maybe that made him look like he was indoctrinacted. but when he finally implanted himself with Reaper tech that was specially designed for himself that was when he truly became indoctrinated. He didn't know that he was becoming a pawn for the Reapers until Shep gives him the 4th Charm option which makes him realize that whatever he's done has further advanced the Reaper's progress. When he begins to doubt himself, that was when the Reapers tried to seize control of him. I believe the Reapers didn't bother to control TIM since TIM's inevitable failure would come sooner or later.

Another version of this scenario is that is becomes indoctrinated when Cerberus retrieves the Human Proto-Reaper. Given that the Reaper corpse is not properly contained, and that TIM's office is so close to it may have made him become indoctrinated, but then this would seem odd since Shepard and two squadmates entered a Reaper and were not indoctrinated.

One line of evidence that makes this interpretation more unlikely, I think, comes from Javik. In his cycle, a splinter group sabotaged the Crucible project and believed that they could control the Reapers. They were indoctrinated. So we KNOW that this is the Reaper's exact M.O. So it is highly, highly suggested by in game dialogue that he was indoctrinated for the whole game.

[Tonymac]

One line of evidence that makes this interpretation more unlikely, I think, comes from Javik. In his cycle, a splinter group sabotaged the Crucible project and believed that they could control the Reapers. They were indoctrinated. So we KNOW that this is the Reaper's exact M.O. So it is highly, highly suggested by in game dialogue that he was indoctrinated for the whole game.

 

Good point - and it it likely he was indoctrinated for all of ME2 as well.  A lot of this discussion boils down to some interesting sci-fi theory - the kind of stuff I love.  At what point do we consider someone to be indoctrinated?  I would think that 100% indoctrinated is the point at which the Reapers have control of your thoughts and actions.  Early indoctrination is like subliminal suggestion.  So, is one percent considered indoctrinated?  50%?

 

I don't know.  I guess that's the real debate.

[Display Name Owner]

When it comes to Cerberus I generally prefer any explanation that doesn't involve indoctrination. They have goals, ideals and methods that differ from yours for whatever reasons, it's much more interesting that way. Shame indoctrination was the answer for everything they did in ME3.

 

Anyway, to answer the question, I'd imagine it might be because TIM didn't want anyone taking down the Collectors but him and people under his control. I think he did want to save Human colonies, but he wanted the rewards of accessing Collector/Reaper technology for his trouble - if the Alliance takes down the Collectors instead of him, he doesn't get to play around with the Collectors' toys.

[Kabooooom]

Good point - and it it likely he was indoctrinated for all of ME2 as well. A lot of this discussion boils down to some interesting sci-fi theory - the kind of stuff I love. At what point do we consider someone to be indoctrinated? I would think that 100% indoctrinated is the point at which the Reapers have control of your thoughts and actions. Early indoctrination is like subliminal suggestion. So, is one percent considered indoctrinated? 50%?

I don't know. I guess that's the real debate.

Even Saren and TIM weren't fully indoctrinated, I think, except for Saren after death. At least, if we consider the extreme form of indoctrination that Grayson experienced to be "full" indoctrination. Both Saren and TIM could be convinced to use their will to break free at the last minute. I don't think that would have ever been possible for Grayson. For Grayson, the Reapers controlled his every thought and action. For TIM and Saren, the Reapers merely blinded them to viewpoints that were contrary to their positions, and they took advantage of their ambition. Saren was blinded to the possibility that resistance was preferable to extinction, if submission resulted in extinction anyways. TIM was blinded to the fact that destroying the Reapers was preferable to controlling them and failing to do so. The Reapers reinforced thoughts that were in line with their plans, but TIM and Saren's thoughts were still ultimately their own.

[SwobyJ]

One thing I keep saying about Cerberus' power level in the trilogy timeline:

 

Cerberus is written to always have things going on that we're barely aware of until its in front of us.

 

They're a small rogue faction in ME1. Sure, okay. Lets ignore that they seem to have their paws on a lot of material/organisms that at least require inside-men in several human corporations.

 

They're a terrorist group with Alliance and corporate ties in ME2. Sure, okay. Lets just ignore their big projects that involve Reaper tech and Geth, that they appear to be capable of steering the social, political, cultural, technological evolution of humanity for the past few decades, and may in fact have the majority of major businesses (including shipyards) under their thumb, albeit almost always indirectly.

 

In ME3, they come out as more of a paramilitary force with, at least during the Reaper War where everyone is occupied by the Reapers, the power to enact pretty much any operation, and multiple fleets to boot. Lets just ignore (until the ending) that they actually seem to be intellectually correct about the nature of the Reapers, their capabilities, and how organics could subvert those capabilities.

 

What's the point? Well, TIM said it himself - CERBERUS IS HUMANITY. The Alliance may be their front face in the galaxy and the group that does most of the actual work, but Cerberus is increasingly shown to be the faction that actually pulls the strings of humanity, and has for decades since Jack Harper/TIM got into the Alliance black ops and was able to worm influence into human business, military, politics, etc. By now, there is little separating the two, and it was only in ME3 that TIM utilized his own implant controlled force because time was short and manipulating the Alliance alone wouldn't have worked during a war.

 

 

Indoctrination doesn't have to literally insert thoughts into your mind as your own. Like Kaboooom said, it reinforces the ones that Reapers want, while breaking down the ones that Reapers don't want, but they're still all of the subject's. Anything else done is just communication - like growls or dreams or whatever, all to inspire an increasing superstitious awe and nervousness about them, which creates further footholds for control. The Reapers don't typically need to directly control organics - the organics do the Reapers' work on their own.

 

And so it was with TIM. Even just being more evolutionary-minded at first, TIM viewed the best way to counter the Reapers was, well, to counter them, not kill them. To learn of the various truths of the galaxy, how organics and synthetics work, how organics and synthetics can be controlled. He guided humanity in that direction. We learn that the Normandy SR-1 itself wouldn't have happened without Cerberus encouraging a back-and-forth information exchange between humans and turians. We have Shepard's resurrection done by Cerberus, using significant implantation. We have AI research where TIM attempts to, essentially, create his own Reaper intelligence while it being under control of Cerberus from the start.

 

The actual majority or research and lab results are not really part of Shepard's soldier journey. We can just try to learn as much as we can to piece together Cerberus' progress, if we so wish. Or just reject it.

 

Why does Cerberus have so many ships? Well first off, its not actually that many. Its a couple fleets of relatively small size. They just have a higher standard of tech that can put them more on par with normal fleets. Cerberus basically owned humanity's shipyards (or at least enough of them) and used them to build ships under many names (front companies) until the time came to announce itself as not just a terrorist organization, but basically para-military. How? Because again, they are humanity. They do infiltrate pretty much every major human organization. Its just in ME1 that we have things more focused on it being the activities of certain individuals in the Alliance and corporations. Foreshadowing.

[Fixers0]

Cerberus is so full internal contradictions and contrivances to the point in which they can only be described as narrative clay, applied by the writer wherever and in with form they need them to be, hence their operational strenght, motives, resources and reach fluctuate from scene to scene.

[SwobyJ]

There are a whole lot of things about Cerberus that don't make sense.

 

I find Tim's turn less jarring than the fact that a reclusive terrorist organization in Mass Effect, a few years later, suddenly has one of the galaxy's largest armies, largest fleets, most advanced technology, and the ability to wage war against humanity and the council so effectively as to capture the Crucible.

 

The army is due to converting civilians in a time of crisis, using technology gained from ME2's time.

 

The fleets are due to controlling at least parts of humanity's shipyards, and only organizing them closer to ME3.

 

The advanced technology is because Cerberus aims for tech that really only the Salarians, if that, work towards. If this were a fantasy game, they'd be the cabal of mages searching the world for forbidden magics. Could everyone else go for this tech? Yep, but they've all had excuses of either ignorance or morality.

 

The war against the Alliance part is because several human fleets are destroyed right in the opening shot of the Reaper War. Cerberus doesn't care to throw away assets unless the goal is incredibly important to the cause (and in that case sure, they toss the mooks and ships into the fray). The Alliance has their hands more than full trying to secure territory, resources, and safety of civilians.

 

It is somewhat implied that they only 'capture' the Citadel because they notified the Reapers of the completion of the Crucible. Thus the Reapers, who are actually the Catalyst/Intelligence (collective intelligence), gets the Citadel into position over Earth, opens up the Citadel to allow Cerberus in, etc. The implied message seems to be that the Reapers were in most control of the situation from the start of the War, and were simply waiting for the war/Shepard/Cerberus/etc to produce results as this galaxy is actually an experiment to them (just erm, with lab rats killing a few scientists lol). That the Citadel could have been moved all along.

But that ties into my whole 'Intelligence/Catalyst is really the consciousness of Sovereign' theory so I'll stop there.

 

Anyway, if we take the whole 'Reapers are just testing the galaxy through an eternal cycle experiment' concept, then they're really just waiting for something to surprise them, while little really ends up doing so. The Crucible keeps popping up, while they thought the concept had been eradicated. Many organics want to Destroy, but never are powerful enough to do so. Many indoctrinated organics want to Control, but the Reapers never allow them to get to that point. And Synthesis is the big surprise that accomplishes the full extent of what the Reapers always wanted to do, but never thought they could.

Taking that idea down to Cerberus again - TIM is literally allowed by the Reapers to come to greater and greater understanding of them, even while becoming more and more under control of them. The controlled cannot be the controller, so Cerberus as an idea may carry on to Shepard's better mind if he picks Control. But yeah, everything they do is guided, at least to minimal extents, by the Reapers. And if TIM has even a fraction of intelligence of the Reapers, he'd certainly be able to manipulate human and eventually galactic society to serve his ends. And that's what's important to him - his ends. Cerberus cells can fail and Cerberus assets can die, as long as TIM gets what he ultimately needs, and he pretty much almost always does.

 

And that's Reaper mentality. Everything for the goal, whether that is the continuation of the cycle (most Reapers), the harvest of species (Harbinger), or the testing for a solution (Catalyst). I really find it not very difficult at all to picture TIM building up more and more invisible influence within humanity to get him the military/ship/tech assets to do what he wants. The Alliance brass seem utterly ignorant that anyone could get one up on them to that extent, except for Anderson who has had enough experience dealing with this stuff, just as on the Reaper angle Shepard (and co.) is the only one who has enough experience dealing with the Reapers.

[Han Shot First]

Cerberus isn't a government that is in control of planets and their shipyards. It shouldn't have had a fleet in ME3.

 

Indoctrination can maybe be used as an explanation for Cerberus' army in ME3, but having a fleet is a bit of a stretch that requires you not to think too much about it.