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[SwobyJ]

Cerberus isn't a government that is in control of planets and their shipyards. It shouldn't have had a fleet in ME3.

 

Indoctrination can maybe be used as an explanation for Cerberus' army in ME3, but having a fleet is a bit of a stretch that requires you not to think too much about it.

 

I think the implication of Cerberus activities as you go on, is that Cerberus may not be literally a government, but it effectively manipulates governments.

 

And does stuff like, you know, encouraging the construction of the Normandy SR-1 itself - one of the most expensive ships ever.

 

I think the point is that Cerberus/TIM is so confident, because they're operating at a level that is always above the rest of the Alliance/humanity, or even the galaxy in some ways. TIM using Reaper-like intelligence (though still constricted by human form) to do things that rival governments' capabilities due to bureaucracy, and to know things that even challenge the Shadow Broker's network. Constructing at least one relatively small fleet shouldn't be that much of a challenge as so many of you think. Space is big. Cerberus could have outright built their own private shipyards in the Traverse and siphoned off billions of credits from front corporations to support this - and keeping the thing quiet by bribing/killing off those who were part of its construction.

 

Again, I want to reinforce the idea of Cerberus being ABOVE the level that most are working at. They horde information, not sell it. They steal technology, not share it. They pretend to work with others, while they're really just working them over.

 

With how big they are even in ME2, the idea is that they are effectively the force that even allowed humanity to be at the level it is in ME1, even if the humans didn't know it. This is the mini-example of the Reapers being the force that even allowed current organics to be at the level they are in ME1, even if the organics didn't know it. Sanctuary is their Citadel. Both Cerberus and the Reapers are working with millions-of-years-old tech and information, just with different levels of access to it.

 

I really don't see them having 1-2ish fleets, of the sort we're shown, to be that big of a deal. Cerberus can certainly build several ships whenever it wants - scurrying to build dozens over several months to a year sounds possible enough, if the stake was the fate of the galaxy and humanity.

 

Now several fleets, sure. That'd be insanity, unless Cerberus pulled something out of their ass that converted the entire Alliance and/or their ships to their cause. But that isn't what they did. It was a couple fleets of the size that probably when combined would have been the size of a single regular fleet of other forces (Citadel species/Alliance). Their edge was in technology that other species didn't even know of, or were just starting to retrofit their ships with (like Salarian cloaking; not saying Cerberus did this, but to show how other species are just catching up in tech), or didn't feel the need to bump billions of credits into (note the Admiral in ME1 who was so pissed off that even the Normandy SR-1 was built and payed for with credits that could have built much larger and offensively powerful ships).

 

 

*We can expect, at least in a more simplified-to-predict Destroy future, that the Alliance and the rest of the galaxy, knowing the tech level that other entities in the universe are working on, will make their ships more to the level of Cerberus. There will be, outside of the spending on rebuilding, a big focus on technological advancement so that people aren't surprised by another invasion.

[Kabooooom]

Cerberus isn't a government that is in control of planets and their shipyards. It shouldn't have had a fleet in ME3.

Indoctrination can maybe be used as an explanation for Cerberus' army in ME3, but having a fleet is a bit of a stretch that requires you not to think too much about it.

You're overlooking that Cerberus' primary front company is the Cord-Hislop Aerospace corporation, the number one manufacturer of advanced starships in the Alliance. TIM directly owns the entire corporation. Every asset is under his control. They are the equivalent of 22nd century Boeing, in that they secure government and military aerospace contracts. They are the corporation that built both the Normandy SR1 and the SR2. They are how Cerberus could build the SR2 in the first place - they didn't have to steal the SR1 blueprints, they already had them because they built the damn thing.

With the fact that Cerberus already owns the majority of Alliance shipyards under consideration, the fact that they have a fleet in ME3 is hardly surprising to me. Especially if TIM had secretly been preparing for a Reaper invasion for decades. In fact, it would seem more surprising if they DIDN'T have a fleet.

[Iakus]

So wait no one noticed all these extra warships being built without alliance contracts? Who paid for all that work and all those resources? Eezo ain't cheap! Does the paper clip patent really stretch that far?

In addition, all that stuff a out how he got his shiny blue eyes was from a comic. One not everyone has read.

[Kabooooom]

So wait no one noticed all these extra warships being built without alliance contracts? Who paid for all that work and all those resources? Eezo ain't cheap! Does the paper clip patent really stretch that far?

In addition, all that stuff a out how he got his shiny blue eyes was from a comic. One not everyone has read.

Cord-Hislop is an independent corporation. It's not like every ship they build is for the Alliance or anything like that. They likely have dozens of private shipyards, probably many outside of Alliance space/jurisdiction if TIM was smart about it. And space is big. It'd be hard NOT to be able to hide a fleet from notice. And I doubt the Alliance would look to closely at Cord-Hislop financial records - not just because you don't **** where you eat, but also because Cerberus had infiltrated high up in the Alliance.

Who paid for it? TIM, presumably, indirectly from money from Cord-Hislop and his other front companies (it is highly suggested that Cerberus also has stock in ExoGeni and Binary Helix). By the time ME3 began, he probably blew the majority of his financial reserve since the galactic economy was facing impending collapse anyways. He is rich as all hell, again, from his entrepreneurial practices.

As for it being from a comic - we've discussed this before, I think. It's still canon. All of it is - with the exception of maybe that last terrible book. But, the background story of Cerberus and Cord-Hislop is actually from the books, which besides being obviously canon in the first place, were also referenced directly throughout the story of ME3 several times.

[Iakus]

It was strongly implied in ME2 that Cerberus blew a big chunk of their funds rebuilding Shepard and constructing the SR2, a no longer top of the line frigate, built in secret. The new Normandy cost billions to make. Cruisers are much much bigger and presumably more expensive to build. Who built them and how? No matter how wealthy TIM was I find it hard to believe he had the resources to build as powerful as a planetary government's in total secrecy.

As for past events the point is there were no congestion or references for those who have not read the comics. They should not assume all players read everything Mass Effect related and require it to understand what is going on.

[Kabooooom]

It was strongly implied in ME2 that Cerberus blew a big chunk of their funds rebuilding Shepard and constructing the SR2, a no longer top of the line frigate built in secret. The new Norma dy cost billions to make. Cruisers are much much bigger and presumably more expensive to build. Who built them and how? No matter how wealthy TIM was I find it hard to believe he had the resources to build as powerful as a planetary government's in total secrecy.

As for past events the point is there were no congestion or references for those who have not read the comics. They should not assume all players read everything Mass Effect related and require it to understand what is going on.

Oh, I agree, but there's no use railing against it - it is what it is. That is how Bioware chose to tell the story. Ignoring the books and comics ignores major parts of the story. Do I like it? No. I think it sets a bad precedent. But, they are following in Halo's footsteps, pretty much. The difference was, Halo's hardcore fan base loves the books, comics, etc. as they are extremely well done for fleshing out the canon - and the less hardcore fans don't miss much, because the campaign of a FPS isn't story driven to the point that an RPG-esque game like ME is...and so, it doesn't quite work for Mass Effect. And the economic impetus to do it is pretty transparent.

As for TIM bankrupting himself to build the SR-2 - I have two points for that. First off, he probably only spent the funds that Cerberus had immediately available for R & D, and no doubt this was probably in the low billions. He has untold more billions tied up in his front companies. I have a hard time believing that Cord-Hislop is only worth a few billion in 2183-6. A few trillion would make more sense. And that's not even his only front company. He has "dozens", reportedly, and circumstantial evidence supports that at least a few are the big-name corporations that we are familiar with from the story.

The second objection, which I think is particularly likely, is that TIM has known about the coming Reaper invasion for decades, and has also been in control of a major starship manufacturing company for decades. Building a starship here, a starship there over years to construct a fleet makes more economic and strategic sense than waiting until the last minute to do so, when you knew you would need them all along - doesn't it?

[SwobyJ]

The SR-1 was the price of a heavy cruiser. Billions of credits.

The SR-2 was probably similar, if not more expensive. Again, billions of credits.

Reconstructing Shepard took billions of credits.

 

Cerberus, as the specific organization, makes several billions of credits or more per year. Its had many years to collect funds.

 

However, in one of the books (if we want to consider it canon), Cerberus' operations and funds were struck hard, but the organization and TIM persisted.

 

This makes the ME3 prep and operations a relatively desperate gamble of TIM's that he wouldn't have pursued otherwise. It was actually the constant opposition to Cerberus that may have finally convinced TIM to control the Reapers, instead of it always being his plan. And once it was his plan, like his other plans, he was sure of it.

 

We can assume that TIM basically blew most of their remaining resources and funds on their ME3 actions. It helps to indoctrinate Cerberus' followers and forcibly pacify populations because it isn't like you have to take care of their needs. Most of his ME3 actions illustrated a man who would do anything for his goal, even if it meant, well, sacrificing the 'soul' of humanity itself. He didn't want to be a devil, but ended up one regardless.

 

But I got the gist if Cerberus wasn't weakened and spending billions of the Shepard initiative, that the plan would have otherwise been just a more general organization and upgrading of humanity and its forces. Shepard took TIM's notice though, and then stood against him, and acted as a force of chaos to TIM's order. This gradually wittled down TIM's moral authority (which was already grey at best) into him eventually being full-on villain status, with no way for any Shepard to actually side with him on the Citadel (except to at least sympathize with what TIM was trying to do, even if it failed for him).

 

So basically, I think what Cerberus did was possible and believable - I just think that it also did break the bank, and TIM had 'no choice' at that point but to push the plan to go full-speed, basic ethics be damned. He may have had choice at one point, but indoctrination took care of that part.

[SwobyJ]

Oh, I agree, but there's no use railing against it - it is what it is. That is how Bioware chose to tell the story. Ignoring the books and comics ignores major parts of the story. Do I like it? No. I think it sets a bad precedent. But, they are following in Halo's footsteps, pretty much. The difference was, Halo's hardcore fan base loves the books, comics, etc. as they are extremely well done for fleshing out the canon - and the less hardcore fans don't miss much, because the campaign of a FPS isn't story driven to the point that an RPG-esque game like ME is...and so, it doesn't quite work for Mass Effect. And the economic impetus to do it is pretty transparent.

As for TIM bankrupting himself to build the SR-2 - I have two points for that. First off, he probably only spent the funds that Cerberus had immediately available for R & D, and no doubt this was probably in the low billions. He has untold more billions tied up in his front companies. I have a hard time believing that Cord-Hislop is only worth a few billion in 2183-6. A few trillion would make more sense. And that's not even his only front company. He has "dozens", reportedly, and circumstantial evidence supports that at least a few are the big-name corporations that we are familiar with from the story.

The second objection, which I think is particularly likely, is that TIM has known about the coming Reaper invasion for decades, and has also been in control of a major starship manufacturing company for decades. Building a starship here, a starship there over years to construct a fleet makes more economic and strategic sense than waiting until the last minute to do so, when you knew you would need them all along - doesn't it?

 

Agreed with all of this. Cerberus had billions in budgets, and lost billions in conflicts with others, but I wouldn't be surprised if they had access to trillions - the wealth of nations. Even if much of it was held up in front companies, it was still there. We have to understand the implications that Cerberus basically owned, directly or mostly to some degree indirectly, the majority of humanity's power. They just didn't want anyone to know it unless it served them. There was supposed to be a Reaper parallel there. There's a reason why Paragon Shepard uses the arguments he uses against TIM - Cerberus was 'supposed to' be humanity's sword. Because when you take into account all of its actual power (that it hides the extent of to others), it pretty much 'is' humanity just as much as the Alliance is, but in a different way.

 

And yeah, Cerberus can build a whole bunch of ships and when they need them, just recall them to another point in space and give em Cerberus stripes. Just as Cerberus had infiltrating personnel, I'm sure that it had ships tagged for use when necessary. Pawns.

[Tonymac]

It was strongly implied in ME2 that Cerberus blew a big chunk of their funds rebuilding Shepard and constructing the SR2, a no longer top of the line frigate built in secret. The new Norma dy cost billions to make. Cruisers are much much bigger and presumably more expensive to build. Who built them and how? No matter how wealthy TIM was I find it hard to believe he had the resources to build as powerful as a planetary government's in total secrecy.

As for past events the point is there were no congestion or references for those who have not read the comics. They should not assume all players read everything Mass Effect related and require it to understand what is going on.

 

I get you - in ME1 we had RADM Mikhailovitch explain the cost (120 billion in Eezo alone), and in ME2 we had explanation of a way bigger core (3x) and it taking a pretty sizable chunk of Cerberus' funds to do it.  You also could talk to EDI after she was unshackled and get a good idea of how much income Cerberus / TIM had.  It was NOTHING like what it would cost to run and maintain multiple shipyards building Dreadnaughts and defying the treaty of Farixen.  One should also note that it takes years to build Dreadnaughts - as we still had not rebuilt the Arcturus Fleet (or for that matter a good part of the Citadel Defense Forces).

 

All in all its a rather nasty plot-hole in my opinion.

[Kabooooom]

The SR-1 was the price of a heavy cruiser. Billions of credits.
The SR-2 was probably similar, if not more expensive. Again, billions of credits.
Reconstructing Shepard took billions of credits.

Cerberus, as the specific organization, makes several billions of credits or more per year. Its had many years to collect funds.

However, in one of the books (if we want to consider it canon), Cerberus' operations and funds were struck hard, but the organization and TIM persisted.

This makes the ME3 prep and operations a relatively desperate gamble of TIM's that he wouldn't have pursued otherwise. It was actually the constant opposition to Cerberus that may have finally convinced TIM to control the Reapers, instead of it always being his plan. And once it was his plan, like his other plans, he was sure of it.

We can assume that TIM basically blew most of their remaining resources and funds on their ME3 actions. It helps to indoctrinate Cerberus' followers and forcibly pacify populations because it isn't like you have to take care of their needs. Most of his ME3 actions illustrated a man who would do anything for his goal, even if it meant, well, sacrificing the 'soul' of humanity itself. He didn't want to be a devil, but ended up one regardless.

But I got the gist if Cerberus wasn't weakened and spending billions of the Shepard initiative, that the plan would have otherwise been just a more general organization and upgrading of humanity and its forces. Shepard took TIM's notice though, and then stood against him, and acted as a force of chaos to TIM's order. This gradually wittled down TIM's moral authority (which was already grey at best) into him eventually being full-on villain status, with no way for any Shepard to actually side with him on the Citadel (except to at least sympathize with what TIM was trying to do, even if it failed for him).

So basically, I think what Cerberus did was possible and believable - I just think that it also did break the bank, and TIM had 'no choice' at that point but to push the plan to go full-speed, basic ethics be damned. He may have had choice at one point, but indoctrination took care of that part.

Ah yeah, I forgot about how desperate TIM was after the Alliance struck them hard. The books have to be canon, because the Grayson story arc is canon. Not only is it canon, but it is critically important to the story of ME3 because research on Grayson is how Cerberus perfected their method of creating Reaperized shock troopers.

I actually really like TIM's character. People are all pissed when they realize that he was indoctrinated for the entirety of ME3 (at least), as they think it diminishes his character. But I don't think it does. Ultimately, his character is reminiscent of Icarus.

[Fixers0]

Ultimately my annoyance with Cerberus isn't so much as to what they are but rather the poor justifications as to why. You cannnot possibly make sense out of Cerberus without welding the incoherent pieces together with with invented headcannon. Recently, just to exlain how bizzare Cerberus had become throughout the trilogy, I wrote the following:

 

How many contemporary privately funded terrorists organisations have the budget to comission and maintain a naval warfleet, produce their own, weapons armor and equipment, have R&D divisions that surpass that of the most wealthy governments, have high level spies and contacts within said governments and manage to evade any type of scrutiny or sanction by the lawful authorities?

 

And that is only if we are assuming  they are the organisation they made out to be, because on several occasions te feel closer to some bizzare illuminati conspirancy organisation, convienently appearing where they need to be and always being one step ahead of everyone else, until the end when they got steamrolled by the Alliance. Pure plot clay if you ask me.

[Kabooooom]

I get you - in ME1 we had RADM Mikhailovitch explain the cost (120 billion in Eezo alone), and in ME2 we had explanation of a way bigger core (3x) and it taking a pretty sizable chunk of Cerberus' funds to do it. You also could talk to EDI after she was unshackled and get a good idea of how much income Cerberus / TIM had. It was NOTHING like what it would cost to run and maintain multiple shipyards building Dreadnaughts and defying the treaty of Farixen. One should also note that it takes years to build Dreadnaughts - as we still had not rebuilt the Arcturus Fleet (or for that matter a good part of the Citadel Defense Forces).

All in all its a rather nasty plot-hole in my opinion.

Except it isn't, because like Swoby and I pointed out, this is all very well explained in the books. Cerberus had much more money than ME2 implies, and they are literally one of the most powerful political and economic forces in the galaxy. They are just analogous to the Shadow Broker in that TIM went through great effort to keep this all beyond the scenes, from the shadows.

[SwobyJ]

TIM didn't want Shepard to know how powerful Cerberus was, in ME2.

 

The narrative, the deliberately established one, was that they were a scrappy, misunderstood set of fighters, considered to be terrorists just for doing what was necessary to protect humanity. It helped that, say, Miranda believed that narrative herself, as a loyalist (Jacob was more of a doubter though).

 

Most of the galaxy itself fell for it. Its ME3 that fully reveals the extent of their power, but most of it was already hinted in either ME1-ME2 content, or external media.

 

ME1 - 'Rogue black ops'

ME2 - 'Shadow Broker scale'

ME3 - 'Alliance scale'

 

Never actually as powerful as the SB/Alliance, but committed actions that had them stand very strongly as a rival. They're the message of how powerful humanity can be when it doesn't have technological and ethical constraints.

 

Little info bits like in the LOTSB data files are there to imply that Cerberus' influence goes well beyond them being *only* a shadow organization, but in fact *are* the organization of how humanity exists. They guided, in one way or another, everything to be in place for where Shepard even is in ME1 (not just ME2). They have their more overt storyline, but there's the larger conspiracy angle that we can follow if we read everything.

[Tonymac]

Except it isn't, because like Swoby and I pointed out, this is all very well explained in the books. Cerberus had much more money than ME2 implies, and they are literally one of the most powerful political and economic forces in the galaxy. They are just analogous to the Shadow Broker in that TIM went through great effort to keep this all beyond the scenes, from the shadows.

 

So is the plot-hole in ME2 or 3? 

 

Also - I appreciate you guys discussing this - because I did not read the books or comics or whatever they are.  I play video games for the Mass Effect experience.  For reading, I get into heavy Sci-Fi.

[Kabooooom]

So is the plot-hole in ME2 or 3?

Also - I appreciate you guys discussing this - because I did not read the books or comics or whatever they are. I play video games for the Mass Effect experience. For reading, I get into heavy Sci-Fi.

Neither, because a plot-hole is not a perceived absence of information. That's not what constitutes a plot hole. And, as Swoby eloquently pointed out, if you pay close enough attention to ME1 and ME2, you don't even need to read the books to pick up on it - the hints are all there.

To elaborate, a plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in the storyline that presents,most likely, an irreconcilable or paradoxical plot or event.

For Cerberus, from the perspective of both Shepard (the player) and the galaxy, Cerberus becomes exponentially more powerful throughout the story. But that's illusory, as they were really that powerful all along.

[Vazgen]

 

I get you - in ME1 we had RADM Mikhailovitch explain the cost (120 billion in Eezo alone), and in ME2 we had explanation of a way bigger core (3x) and it taking a pretty sizable chunk of Cerberus' funds to do it.  You also could talk to EDI after she was unshackled and get a good idea of how much income Cerberus / TIM had.  It was NOTHING like what it would cost to run and maintain multiple shipyards building Dreadnaughts and defying the treaty of Farixen.  One should also note that it takes years to build Dreadnaughts - as we still had not rebuilt the Arcturus Fleet (or for that matter a good part of the Citadel Defense Forces).

 

All in all its a rather nasty plot-hole in my opinion.

How many dreadnoughts does Cerberus have? I don't remember seeing any in the vanilla game. And IIRC there is nothing to indicate that those dreadnoughts were built between ME2 and ME3. And as another possibility, they might as well be Alliance defectors/sleeper agents. 

Their fleet seemed to be composed mainly of Cruisers and Fighters with the latter greatly outnumbering the former.

[Kabooooom]

That said though, although I - like Swoby - have no problem with Cerberus in ME3 because I understand how extensive their organization really was in the first place...it could have all been handled much better in the narrative. They could have outright explained it, instead of dropping little clues in terminals, datapads, and conversations between characters.

I'd say that well over 90% of players are confused about Cerberus' seemingly abrupt rise to power - especially those that haven't read the books or comics.

[SwobyJ]

So is the plot-hole in ME2 or 3? 

 

Also - I appreciate you guys discussing this - because I did not read the books or comics or whatever they are.  I play video games for the Mass Effect experience.  For reading, I get into heavy Sci-Fi.

 

The message that I got from Bioware is that for Shepard's Mass Effect Trilogy, the growth of Cerberus doesn't matter as much as Shepard's relationship to it. If we want to learn all the context, we gotta pony up for expanded content/media.

 

I don't love this, but if this is what their intent was, I understand it.

[SilJeff]

This has really been an interesting read, guys. Thanks for all the inciteful information about Cerberus I didn't know about. I have been meaning to read Ascension and Retribution since I read Revelation a while back, but never got around to it. Now I have a reason to.

 

Thanks again

[SwobyJ]

 

How many dreadnoughts does Cerberus have? I don't remember seeing any in the vanilla game. And IIRC there is nothing to indicate that those dreadnoughts were built between ME2 and ME3. And as another possibility, they might as well be Alliance defectors/sleeper agents. 

Their fleet seemed to be composed mainly of Cruisers and Fighters with the latter greatly outnumbering the former.

 

 

I'm not even sure they have a single dreadnought. Given the focus of Cerberus' operations, I'd think it would be considered a tactical waste. I think they greatly prefer cruisers and fighters, just with upgrades that make any one of those have a definite advantage over Alliance counterparts.

 

That said though, although I - like Swoby - have no problem with Cerberus in ME3 because I understand how extensive their organization really was in the first place...it could have all been handled much better in the narrative. They could have outright explained it, instead of dropping little clues in terminals, datapads, and conversations between characters.

I'd say that well over 90% of players are confused about Cerberus' seemingly abrupt rise to power - especially those that haven't read the books or comics.

 

Yeah, I think it didn't flow well. Personally, I'm almost fine with looking for all the info, but I don't think it should have came with the price of other players feeling that the narrative was disjointed.

 

This has really been an interesting read, guys. Thanks for all the inciteful information about Cerberus I didn't know about. I have been meaning to read Ascension and Retribution since I read Revelation a while back, but never got around to it. Now I have a reason to.

 

Thanks again

 

[Vazgen]

I found this: Mass Effect starship size comparison chart

There is a Cerberus dreadnought in the picture. It seems they are present in Omega DLC

[Vazgen]

This has really been an interesting read, guys. Thanks for all the inciteful information about Cerberus I didn't know about. I have been meaning to read Ascension and Retribution since I read Revelation a while back, but never got around to it. Now I have a reason to.

 

Thanks again

They are quite good, of all three novels I liked Ascension the most

[Cassandra Saturn]

TIM was slowly being indoctrinated when he installed a reaper tech on his own eyes in comic, during the years of ME1.

he was partially indoctrinated in ME2, now fully indoctrinated in ME3.

[Kabooooom]

The message that I got from Bioware is that for Shepard's Mass Effect Trilogy, the growth of Cerberus doesn't matter as much as Shepard's relationship to it. If we want to learn all the context, we gotta pony up for expanded content/media.

I don't love this, but if this is what their intent was, I understand it.

Yeah, the problem was that a lot of the clues about Cerberus were on the same level as say - Aria being Wrex's old asari friend Aleena. The clues were there for hardcore and observant fans to pick up on, but they easily go unnoticed. Cerberus was the same way. On the one hand, I'm okay with that as it kind of makes them work better as a shadow organization from the perspective of Shepard. On the other hand, it really does hurt the narrative.

I referenced Halo before - I had never read the books or comics. When I played Halo 4, after playing all the other games, I was WTFing all over the place with regards to the Librarian and the Didact. And ancient human starships? The ****? But then I read up on the lore.

It works alright for Halo because most players just mindlessly play for the FPS action, and the more hardcore fans read the back story. But Mass Effect depends on the story in a much more intricate way.

[SwobyJ]

I found this: Mass Effect starship size comparison chart

There is a Cerberus dreadnought in the picture. It seems they are present in Omega DLC

 

Okay, thank you! I was uncertain about Omega, and maybe Cronos. But that's still not much.