152 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

From the point of view of someone who (to his regret) played ME2 first I didn't have too much of an issue with some of the things that others did. I facepalmed at Miranda's over-the-top "sexiness" and thought the whole Lazarus thing rather silly but beyond that it quickly hooked me with its atmosphere and characters. It had its fair share of flaws but the ride was good enough that I mostly didn't care that much.

[Farangbaa]

Well, in that case sending Shepard there makes perfect sense

 

Probably, yeah

[txgoldrush]

You want to know where Cerberus got the space navy in ME3?

 

It was mentioned in ME2's codex that their stockpiling ships, weapons, and agents, its all in the narrative.

[ImaginaryMatter]

You want to know where Cerberus got the space navy in ME3?

 

It was mentioned in ME2's codex that their stockpiling ships, weapons, and agents, its all in the narrative.

 

There's a big difference between covert paramilitary group stockpiles resources and covert paramilitary group now has the resources to rival entire galactic governments.

 

The group's size in ME2 was already incredulous enough given TIM's constantly displayed incompetence at running anything more complicated than a taco stand.

[Fixers0]

The group's size in ME2 was already incredulous enough given TIM's constantly displayed incompetence at running anything more complicated than a taco stand.

 

Quite, but perhaps more outlanidsh would be how one individual, as disillusioned and deranged xeno-nationalist, would be able to constuct such an organisation to begin with, in complete secrecy and with dozens of front corporations, in a universe in which humanity has been barely introduced to. Indeed Cerberus has been running  covert and technologically related research some twenty years before the start of the trilogy, barey a few years after humanity made first contact. One wonders how but one individual got that kind of money, personnel, knowlege and techonlogy in that short of a time span.

[von uber]

I played ME2 directly after finishing ME1 (as in quit ME1, import save, ME2 go! and ME3 directly after ME2). My immediate feelings from the intro were puzzlement, shock, then confusion as we are brought back by Cerberus. I kept looking for a way NOT to be with them; I thought meeting Anderson would give me the chance but after I while it sunk in that you had no choice but to work for them. That annoyed me a lot.

[SporkFu]

I watched the movie Machete last night. Robert De Niro played a senator up for reelection who based his entire campaign on building a wall to keep illegal immigrants from crossing the border.

His biggest contributor was a Mexican drug kingpin who wanted the wall built so he could control supply of drugs across the border and drive up prices.

No matter what TIM's reputation or "public" stance on aliens, I have no doubt he wouldn't hesitate to work with aliens to get something he wanted.

[SwobyJ]

Cerberus never rivaled anything.

 

Alliance? Only because the Alliance was wrecked and stunned and occupied.

 

Aliens? Nope, Cerberus only sent in strike teams.

 

Space battles? Okay, a dreadnaught.

 

Reapers? Nope, even one Reaper might have defeated any forces at Omega or Cronos.

 

TIM was a mini-Reaper, he aimed everything towards achieving his goals, in a calculated manner that would have surpassed all other human capabilities. And his goals increasingly aligned with the Reaper consensus.

[nukembaby]

TIM was clearly indoctrinated by the end of ME2 if he thought Shepard had any chance in hell to complete the suicide mission. I don't see a guy getting to where he is by taking such long odds as that one. At least wait to build up more ships with Thanix canons to send in as support.

[Iakus]

 

Aliens? Nope, Cerberus only sent in strike teams.

He sent a "strike team" that managed to tear through the defenses of an STG facility.

 

On Sur'Kesh!

[Display Name Owner]

TIM was clearly indoctrinated by the end of ME2 if he thought Shepard had any chance in hell to complete the suicide mission. I don't see a guy getting to where he is by taking such long odds as that one. At least wait to build up more ships with Thanix canons to send in as support.

 

I dunno, Overlord was an incredibly long shot, which backfired. Trying to subjugate Thorian Creepers was less of a long shot, although it also backfired. Subject Zero was kind of a long shot given their methods. As I recall, that backfired. Trying to take control of Rachni was a bit of a risk. Blah blah backfired.

 

He definitely was risking a lot by expecting Shep and crew to actually win on the Collector assault, for all they knew the Collectors could have had a functioning Death Star on the other end of the Omega 4 Relay. But, he did once say "it's always a matter of resources", as long as he's got billions inexplicably rolling into his pocket it doesn't seem he much cares about risk. Plus, he already had the IFF copied and was already said to have been stockpiling ships and weapons, if Shep couldn't handle it he could always send more stuff in afterwards.

[SporkFu]

He sent a "strike team" that managed to tear through the defenses of an STG facility.

 

On Sur'Kesh!

Gotta wonder what that says about the STG when shep, EDI and squaddie #2 took down Cronos Station. 

[Iakus]

Gotta wonder what that says about the STG when shep, EDI and squaddie #2 took down Cronos Station. 

Plus Hackett and the bulk of the Alliance's fleet

[SporkFu]

Plus Hackett and the bulk of the Alliance's fleet

Never noticed them   

[StarcloudSWG]

I dunno, Overlord was an incredibly long shot, which backfired. Trying to subjugate Thorian Creepers was less of a long shot, although it also backfired. Subject Zero was kind of a long shot given their methods. As I recall, that backfired. Trying to take control of Rachni was a bit of a risk. Blah blah backfired.

 

 

Joker: Hey, Commander, this is Cerberus. We were studying some rachni... and they got loose and killed all our guys. Can you take care of that? It's one system away from where we hooked some guy up to the geth... who then got loose and killed all our guys.

...

Shepard: And after taking down the Collectors, I cut ties with Cerberus, got loose... and started killing all their guys!

[Farangbaa]

Gotta wonder what that says about the STG when shep, EDI and squaddie #2 took down Cronos Station. 

 

Everybody's a waste of atoms compared to Shep.

[Display Name Owner]

Joker: Hey, Commander, this is Cerberus. We were studying some rachni... and they got loose and killed all our guys. Can you take care of that? It's one system away from where we hooked some guy up to the geth... who then got loose and killed all our guys.

...

Shepard: And after taking down the Collectors, I cut ties with Cerberus, got loose... and started killing all their guys!

 

And then to cap it all off, you can even make TIM get loose and kill himself in the end, haha.

[Display Name Owner]

Everybody's a waste of atoms compared to Shep.

 

In fairness, despite what I said about Cerberus' failures, they're also inexplicably the only people who achieve anything. Ignoring their methods, they took over the Collectors' assets when other species couldn't even try after centuries of dealing with them, they found the derelict Reaper, they spawned an army capable of seizing Omega and the Presidium, invented new top of the line guns, made it possible to take the Shadow Broker down, reverse engineered Husk technology, mastered indoctrination (even if they got indoctrinated in the process), were responsible for the creation of 2 of the most advanced ships in the galaxy, and I don't even want to know how many stunts they pulled off in comics and novels. All made possible by being one of the most financially successful groups around. They made most of Shepard's successes in the trilogy possible.

 

And all of this annoys me a lot more than their failures. They're some kind of plot clay / constant-screw-up / implausibly-good-at-everything Frankenstein.

[Arcian]

In fairness, despite what I said about Cerberus' failures, they're also inexplicably the only people who achieve anything. Ignoring their methods, they took over the Collectors' assets when other species couldn't even try after centuries of dealing with them, they found the derelict Reaper, they spawned an army capable of seizing Omega and the Presidium, invented new top of the line guns, made it possible to take the Shadow Broker down, reverse engineered Husk technology, mastered indoctrination (even if they got indoctrinated in the process), were responsible for the creation of 2 of the most advanced ships in the galaxy, and I don't even want to know how many stunts they pulled off in comics and novels. All made possible by being one of the most financially successful groups around. They made most of Shepard's successes in the trilogy possible.

And all of this annoys me a lot more than their failures. They're some kind of plot clay / constant-screw-up / implausibly-good-at-everything Frankenstein.

They are a reflection of Super MAC, a rather poor writer with an inordinate amount of professional influence and power who despite his incredibly flawed contributions walks away at the end of the day with massive paychecks, commercially successful games and unfailing media respect to his name.

[Vazgen]

They are a reflection of Super MAC, a rather poor writer with an inordinate amount of professional influence and power who despite his incredibly flawed contributions walks away at the end of the day with massive paychecks, commercially successful games and unfailing media respect to his name.

Yeah, and you're the only one to see him through... 

A poor writer with incredibly flawed contributions will never get massive paychecks, commercially successful games and unfailing media respect to his name. 

You know, achieve a half of what you claim Mac has achieved and I may actually take you seriously.

[Darius M.]

OP: I'm pretty sure EDI sheds some light on this after she is unshackled in ME2. 

 

She basically says that Cerberus is compartmentalized. They are made up of many different cells, and not only do all the cells not know what the other is doing, but they also don't know any of the personnel assigned to different cells. Thus why we see a cell that did project overlord, a cell that studied the dead reaper, the Lazarus cell, etc.

 

So with this in mind, I think there very well could have been a cell that attacked Vega's team while Shepard and company were doing their thing. Yes I think it's also hinted at that TIM was subtly indoctrinated, but I personally think his state is irrelevant. Whether he was or wasn't, there were still other active cells that could (and did) carry out other actions Shepard wasn't aware of.

 

Hope that provides another insight

[Vit246]

 

A poor writer with incredibly flawed contributions will never get massive paychecks, commercially successful games and unfailing media respect to his name. 

You know, achieve a half of what you claim Mac has achieved and I may actually take you seriously.

Ahahahahaha.

You are so naive.

[Vazgen]

Ahahahahaha.
You are so naive.

Oh, really? Enlighten me. Give an example of such a writer.

[SerTabris]

Yeah, and you're the only one to see him through... 

A poor writer with incredibly flawed contributions will never get massive paychecks, commercially successful games and unfailing media respect to his name. 

You know, achieve a half of what you claim Mac has achieved and I may actually take you seriously.

 

You seem to be suggesting here that we shouldn't take criticism of something seriously unless the critic has produced similar things, and I don't think that's reasonable.  Do we require reviewers to be game developers? What about other media? Movie critics don't generally produce films, and book reviewers aren't generally well-known authors.

 

(I'm not taking a position on the original claim itself, here, just this line of argument.)

 

OP: I'm pretty sure EDI sheds some light on this after she is unshackled in ME2. 

 

She basically says that Cerberus is compartmentalized. They are made up of many different cells, and not only do all the cells not know what the other is doing, but they also don't know any of the personnel assigned to different cells. Thus why we see a cell that did project overlord, a cell that studied the dead reaper, the Lazarus cell, etc.

 

So with this in mind, I think there very well could have been a cell that attacked Vega's team while Shepard and company were doing their thing. Yes I think it's also hinted at that TIM was subtly indoctrinated, but I personally think his state is irrelevant. Whether he was or wasn't, there were still other active cells that could (and did) carry out other actions Shepard wasn't aware of.

 

Hope that provides another insight

 

I got that conversation recently replaying ME2. To me, that part makes sense and fits with what they're doing (and some of their 'left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing' issues).  On the other hand, EDI also told me Cerberus has about 150 active operatives. At the start of ME3 (with From Ashes installed), Cerberus is occupying the entire colony of Eden Prime.  There could be an explanation for this, but it seems pretty strange that nobody asks for one in the mission.  (I recall the explanation for the source of Cerberus troops later in the game, but it seems like there's not enough time for that to apply to the Eden Prime forces.)  Just on Mars and Eden Prime, it feels like I've gone through maybe half of that number at least.

[Vazgen]

You seem to be suggesting here that we shouldn't take criticism of something seriously unless the critic has produced similar things, and I don't think that's reasonable.  Do we require reviewers to be game developers? What about other media? Movie critics don't generally produce films, and book reviewers aren't generally well-known authors.

 

(I'm not taking a position on the original claim itself, here, just this line of argument.)

What I'm saying is that it's easy to criticize someone without knowing 1) details of how the writing went 2) collaboration within the team 3) timeline etc.

Also, that I will consider someone's criticism seriously if they can back their claims with knowledge, which, based on the statement made, is not present.

"They are a reflection of Super MAC, a rather poor writer with an inordinate amount of professional influence and power who despite his incredibly flawed contributions walks away at the end of the day with massive paychecks, commercially successful games and unfailing media respect to his name." does not account any of the aforementioned factors and is based on speculation that "Super Mac" is the one solely responsible for Cerberus, endings and everything bad that the series had.