152 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

You seem to be suggesting here that we shouldn't take criticism of something seriously unless the critic has produced similar things, and I don't think that's reasonable.  Do we require reviewers to be game developers? What about other media? Movie critics don't generally produce films, and book reviewers aren't generally well-known authors.

 

(I'm not taking a position on the original claim itself, here, just this line of argument.)

What I'm saying is that it's easy to criticize someone without knowing 1) details of how the writing went 2) collaboration within the team 3) timeline etc.

Also, that I will consider someone's criticism seriously if they can back their claims with knowledge, which, based on the statement made, is not present.

"They are a reflection of Super MAC, a rather poor writer with an inordinate amount of professional influence and power who despite his incredibly flawed contributions walks away at the end of the day with massive paychecks, commercially successful games and unfailing media respect to his name." does not account any of the aforementioned factors and is based on speculation that "Super Mac" is the one solely responsible for Cerberus, endings and everything bad that the series had. 

I got that conversation recently replaying ME2. To me, that part makes sense and fits with what they're doing (and some of their 'left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing' issues).  On the other hand, EDI also told me Cerberus has about 150 active operatives. At the start of ME3 (with From Ashes installed), Cerberus is occupying the entire colony of Eden Prime.  There could be an explanation for this, but it seems pretty strange that nobody asks for one in the mission.  (I recall the explanation for the source of Cerberus troops later in the game, but it seems like there's not enough time for that to apply to the Eden Prime forces.)  Just on Mars and Eden Prime, it feels like I've gone through maybe half of that number at least.

The way I understand it, each operative oversees a cell. Miranda was in charge of the Lazarus cell which included quite a lot of people 

[Bardox9]

The only way I can make sense of the radical changes in Cerberus through the storyline is  this:

 

During the First Contact War, TIM gets exposed to an ancient Reaper device (left behind from a previous cycle) that turns  people into hulkish husks. TIM's exposure is limited, but it's enough that his mind, and eyes, are changed. Becoming aware of the Reapers and the threat they pose, Lacking any evidence, he believes the rest of the galactic community will dismiss him and simply call him mad. So he dedicates his life to trying to find a way to stop them... or so he thinks. IMO, this was the first move the Reapers made on TIM's mind.

 

After seeing how indoctrination works via Saren, TIM begins to wonder if he too is slowly being indoctrinated. Just as Saren had the facility on Virmir researching a way to prevent indoctrination, TIM focuses on Shepard, a hero and symbol showing that the Reapers can be defeated, sending him after the Collectors. That they are attacking human colonies is not the truely important part. Even if they hadn't, ME2 starts with them killing Shepard, along with a great number of his original crew, so with a little prodding and a good BS story TIM could still get Shepard on board for raiding the collector base. TIM's true reason for going after the collectors is the same as Saren's reason for Virmir, a desperate attempt to try and find something that might help protect him from indoctrination.

 

By ME3 it is simply too late. TIM's indoctrination is complete. With the Reapers carving their way through the galaxy, the time for subtle manipulations are over. He is tasked by the Reapers to find anything that could be used against the Reapers and bring it to them. When Liara discovers the plans for the Crucible, he jumps into action. From then on, Cerberus is what the Collectors were during the last cycle, a rogue group to destabilize any organized effort against the Harvest.

 

That's my theory anyway...

[Cheviot]

I have a question for the community here. I am at a lose on how to make this part of the Cerberus story work in my head. 

 

In ME2 your working with/for (depending on your view) Cerberus to take down the Collectors

In ME3 James tells you that his squad was betrayed during a Collector attack by a Cerberus Agent working with the Collectors

 

This is where I am confused. At no point in ME2 does the Illusive Man seem Indoctrinated that comes later in parts of ME3. So was Cerberus already Indoctrinated when Shepard was with them? If so then why was the Illusive Man trying to take down the Collectors? Where humans supposed to replace them? 

There's two explanations: the agent was working alone and indoctrinated, or Cerberus engineered the betrayal to get more info on Collector/Reaper tactics or whatever.  They were always doing that sort of stuff, most obviously during ME1 where they exposed Alliance troops to all sorts of nasty forms of life to study them.

[SerTabris]

[...]

The way I understand it, each operative oversees a cell. Miranda was in charge of the Lazarus cell which included quite a lot of people 

 

ME2 lists Miranda as a 'Cerberus Officer', and Jacob as a 'Cerberus Operative', though.  And I think EDI also said something about them only running a few projects at a time, since the Illusive Man wants to have direct oversight of what they're doing.  So if that's true, and each operative ran a whole cell, then you'd have 140 Cerberus cells sitting around doing nothing because TIM is too busy to micromanage them.

 

As for their ships and tech, I just replayed the Grissom Academy mission, and one Cerberus cruiser seems to outclass the Normandy.  It seems odd since I have all the upgrades for it and the Collector ship from ME2 went down in just a couple shots, but... I guess all their ships have the same fancy tech the SR-2 does?

 

Honestly, for me part of the issue isn't that these things happen in and of themselves, but that nobody seems to think they are remarkable.

[SporkFu]

It's not that the Cerberus cruiser at Grissom Academy outclasses the Normandy -- nothing outclasses the Normandy   -- it's that the dozen or so smaller, more maneuverable fighters accompanying the cruiser would be a bit much, even for Joker and EDI, to fight all at once. 

 

And when EDI talks about the 150 or so cerberus operatives, I think she's not including the military branch of Cerberus run by general Petrovsky, Cerberus' "best kept secret" (read: he hasn't been invented yet  )

[von uber]

That's quite an oversight by EDI there isn't it.

[SporkFu]

She didn't want to bother shep with minor details. 

[Vazgen]

ME2 lists Miranda as a 'Cerberus Officer', and Jacob as a 'Cerberus Operative', though.  And I think EDI also said something about them only running a few projects at a time, since the Illusive Man wants to have direct oversight of what they're doing.  So if that's true, and each operative ran a whole cell, then you'd have 140 Cerberus cells sitting around doing nothing because TIM is too busy to micromanage them.

 

As for their ships and tech, I just replayed the Grissom Academy mission, and one Cerberus cruiser seems to outclass the Normandy.  It seems odd since I have all the upgrades for it and the Collector ship from ME2 went down in just a couple shots, but... I guess all their ships have the same fancy tech the SR-2 does?

 

Honestly, for me part of the issue isn't that these things happen in and of themselves, but that nobody seems to think they are remarkable.

I believe EDI says it explicitly, that "Operative Lawson is in charge of the Lazarus cell". 

[von uber]

"Cerberus operations run to the tune of a couple Billion credits income per year, 140 cells run by operatives AND A MASSIVE ****** PRIVATE ARMY AND FLEET."

"Sorry, EDI?"

"Nothing Commander, minor detail."

[ImaginaryMatter]

There's two explanations: the agent was working alone and indoctrinated, or Cerberus engineered the betrayal to get more info on Collector/Reaper tactics or whatever.  They were always doing that sort of stuff, most obviously during ME1 where they exposed Alliance troops to all sorts of nasty forms of life to study them.

 

It could have just been one of those rogue cells that seem to plaque Cerberus.

[themikefest]

It's not that the Cerberus cruiser at Grissom Academy outclasses the Normandy -- nothing outclasses the Normandy   -- it's that the dozen or so smaller, more maneuverable fighters accompanying the cruiser would be a bit much, even for Joker and EDI, to fight all at once. 

 

And when EDI talks about the 150 or so cerberus operatives, I think she's not including the military branch of Cerberus run by general Petrovsky, Cerberus' "best kept secret" (read: he hasn't been invented yet  )

How hard would it be for the Normandy to fire at the cruiser destroying it and jumping to FTL? The only answer I have is that this is ME3 and in a default playthrough, the Thannix Cannon doesn't exist, That upgrade can only be acquired in ME2

[ImaginaryMatter]

How hard would it be for the Normandy to fire at the cruiser destroying it and jumping to FTL? The only answer I have is that this is ME3 and in a default playthrough, the Thannix Cannon doesn't exist, That upgrade can only be acquired in ME2

 

It was probably outfitted with whatever shield system Kai Leng was using. After taking a barrage from the Normandy the Cerberus cruiser crouched down in open space and became invulnerable.

[themikefest]

It was probably outfitted with whatever shield system Kai Leng was using. After taking a barrage from the Normandy the Cerberus cruiser crouched down in open space and became invulnerable.

Yeah I can see that.

Cruiser: Cerberus fighters. Cover me while I recharge

Cerberus fighters: Copy

Cruiser: You've had your fun Normandy. Target its thrusters

Cerberus fighters: It jumped to FTL

Cruiser: We will meet again Normandy.

[SporkFu]

I was thinking more of the dozen or so fighters buzzing around the Normandy like flies, taking down its kinetic barriers while it fights the cruiser. That's why Joker said "straight-up fight" and not "hit-and-run".

[SerTabris]

I was thinking more of the dozen or so fighters buzzing around the Normandy like flies, taking down its kinetic barriers while it fights the cruiser. That's why Joker said "straight-up fight" and not "hit-and-run".

 

The Collector ship also had several of those Oculus-type things, which appear to fill a similar role, though.

 

I believe EDI says it explicitly, that "Operative Lawson is in charge of the Lazarus cell". 

Seems reasonable, but I don't think that necessarily implies that Operative Lawson is the only 'operative', rather than that being a generic word for 'person working for Cerberus'.  Do they ever say 'Operative Taylor' for Jacob, or is he always just 'Mr. Taylor'?  (What about that other guy that Miranda shoots at the beginning of ME2?)

[SporkFu]

The Collector ship also had several of those Oculus-type things, which appear to fill a similar role, though

The Normandy didn't take them on in in a straight-up fight either, and besides Grissom Academy was a rescue op, while keeping in mind they still had a crucible to build and a galaxy to save. The collector base assault was the tail end of a suicide mission where maybe no one comes back alive. Different priorities.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Alliance removed the Thanix cannon from the Normandy, saying it was OPed.

 

Cerberus ships were superior to the same class of Alliance vessels.

[SporkFu]

The Alliance removed the Thanix cannon from the Normandy, saying it was OPed.

Cerberus ships were superior to the same class of Alliance vessels.

Note to self: read the codex.

[KaiserShep]

The Alliance removed the Thanix cannon from the Normandy, saying it was OPed.

 

Cerberus ships were superior to the same class of Alliance vessels.

 

Mikhailovich, that son of a b**ch.

[SporkFu]

Mikhailovich, that son of a b**ch.

Too bad the only chance we had to throw him out of the airlock was when we were already docked.

[themikefest]

We get assets for having the cannon, shield and armor upgrades from ME2 and in an ME3 default playthrough, those upgrades are not available. Who needs them if they don't do anything in ME3? 

[ImaginaryMatter]

I was thinking more of the dozen or so fighters buzzing around the Normandy like flies, taking down its kinetic barriers while it fights the cruiser. That's why Joker said "straight-up fight" and not "hit-and-run".

 

This is probably more on ME2 than anything else. But I feel like if the Normandy was able to single handed take on the Collectors it should be able to take on a single Cerberus cruiser. We really don't need the Collectors to appear anymore incompetent than they already are.

[KaiserShep]

I wonder how the Grissom mission would have played out if it actually accounted for that particular upgrade. We just Thannix their asses and then mosey on to the station? I guess it wouldn't change the fact that the station is still crawling with Cerberus troops, but they'd basically have nowhere to go at that point.

[themikefest]

I wonder how the Grissom mission would have played out if it actually accounted for that particular upgrade. We just Thannix their asses and then mosey on to the station? I guess it wouldn't change the fact that the station is still crawling with Cerberus troops, but they'd basically have nowhere to go at that point.

Not much of a change except the player gets to see the Normandy destroy the cruiser and the students are rescued. The only problem is that in a ME3 default playthrough, the Cannon doesn't exist. It was only available in ME2

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Alliance removed the Thanix cannon from the Normandy, saying it was OPed.

 

Cerberus ships were superior to the same class of Alliance vessels.

 

For real?

 

Jeez, the Normandy retrofit team gets more incompetent everyday.