47 réponses à ce sujet

[DrBlingzle]

Now it's fair enough for Shepard for shepard to believe in the reapers in ME1, he'd seen the visions and even talked to one, but try to look at it from the Council's perspective.

 

You have a soldier who (in one origin story) has gone through harrowing ordeals and might have Post Traumatic Stress disorder and is claiming the existence of mythical death machines who destroyed galactic civilisation 50,000 years ago and vanished without a trace, and the only actual evidence he has are "visions" and the word "reapers" spoken once in a 10 second recording of a renegade Spectre.

 

Now after Sovereign attacked the citadel and all the events in ME1 maybe the council should of at least prepared but at the time in ME1, if I was in their position I would of been pretty doubtful as well.

 

What do you think?

[Barquiel]

I don't really blame them either.

"Wake up! Aliens will come and destroy us!" is simply hard to believe...and as you said, there is no solid evidence that Reapers will come and destroy the galaxy other than Shepard's word and a confusing jumble of images. It's not that the council isn't justified in their skepticism.

 

Their role in ME2 is a bit more problematic. Tevos recognized the reaper threat if Shepard saved the Destiny Ascension in ME1 ("you saved not just our lives but the lives of billions from Sovereign and the Reapers"). But in ME2, we are back to "Ah yes, reapers"... (bad writing, I guess).

[themikefest]

Since they take the word of Saren about Eden Prime from the recording by Tali, why  couldn't they accept Benezia's word when she mentions the return of the reapers from the recording that Tali has?

[DrBlingzle]

Since they take the word of Saren about Eden Prime from the recording by Tali, why  couldn't they accept Benezia's word when she mentions the return of the reapers from the recording that Tali has?

There's a little bit of a difference in believability between a rogue spectre and mythical death machines who destroyed galactic civilisation 50,000 years ago and vanished without a trace. Also the word "Reaper" is hardly a unique word, from the council's perspective she could've been speaking about something else also called "Reapers", or indeed "a lie to cover his true purpose". 

[themikefest]

There's a little bit of a difference in believability between a rogue spectre and mythical death machines who destroyed galactic civilisation 50,000 years ago and vanished without a trace. Also the word "Reaper" is hardly a unique word, from the council's perspective she could've been speaking about something else also called "Reapers", or indeed "a lie to cover his true purpose". 

How many other species or whatever uses the term reaper? I would be curious as to why Benezia would mention the return of the reapers, but the council chose to ignore that

[CptFalconPunch]

Nah, I don't blame them at all actually, they still frustrated me a bit though.

 

I do have problems with them in the 2nd game however.

[Riven326]

They were already determined not to believe it in ME1 and there wasn't enough evidence. But in ME2 there is no excuse. Especially when you find that 37 million year old dead Reaper just floating out in space. Let's use this as proof for the Council! No, let's let's crush it in the gravity of a planet... sounds more fun!

 

This is the kind of stuff that made me shake my head while playing that game.

[Undead Han]

Prior to ME1 I thought their skepticism made sense. To anyone who hadn't had a direct experience with the Prothean beacons, Shepard's warnings about the Reapers would sound like the ranting of a tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy theorist.

 

The problem with the Council's portrayal starts in Mass Effect 2, where they are back to air quoting Reapers, despite having encountered Sovereign and being fully on board with Shepard at the end of Mass Effect 1. The backtracking didn't make sense, and it was crammed in there only to force Shepard to work with Cerberus.

[KaiserShep]

Where it really gets out of hand for me is when Tevos cranks the derp to 11 and says that Saren's charisma got the geth to follow him. Like, c'mon blue lady. The geth can be persuaded by simple word of mouth by one stupid little organic? The quarians must have been stupider than anyone could have possibly imagined.

 

As Han says, all of this is just the driving force to leave Shepard no options. Of course, it's just as problematic that Shepard can't insist on rejoining the Alliance. I mean, they're right there. Shepard did swear an oath at some point when entering service or something like that.

[BloodyMares]

Actually, after playing through ME1, it really sounded stupid from Shepard's perspective to try persuade the Council into accepting his point of view without any proof. On their place I would really reconsider if he's Spectre worthy having such a temper without having an ability to think. To me, it sounded like he was under bad influence of Anderson who had his grievance clouding his judgement. But he could try and find some proof of Reaper existence. Like, record of Shiala's words about Sovereign's ability to indoctrinate, Benezia's struggle with it and dialogue with Saren on Eden Prime. Maybe it still wouldn't be enough but at least they could've prepared for Sovereign's invasion on the Citadel and wouldn't need Alliance saving them. After battle Tali could try to extract any more proof of Old Machines from Geth platforms or Council could indeed try to study Sovereign's remains and conclude that this tech is not made by Geth. Instead we got 'Ah yes, Reapers.'

[Barquiel]

To be fair, it is implied in the citadel DLC that the council believed Shepard's Reaper theory after Sovereign's attack. The archive states "suspected to be a Reaper." We are obviously supposed to believe that they played dumb in ME2, maybe because they don't trust Shepard with her Cerberus connections..

[BloodyMares]

To be fair, it is implied in the citadel DLC that the council believed Shepard's Reaper theory after Sovereign's attack. The archive states "suspected to be a Reaper." We are obviously supposed to believe that they played dumb in ME2, maybe because they don't trust Shepard with her Cerberus connections..

You know, it actually makes sense. Since they don't trust Cerberus, they don't want to uncover any confidential information considering Reaper existence... even though they already aware of it. Who knows, maybe Council was doing their own secret investigations on the Collectors.

[ImaginaryMatter]

There were some big, silly problems in some of their scenes' executions but over all I thought their reluctance to believe in the Reapers was perfectly rational... at least in ME1.

 

In ME2 their actions extend way past credible and head into the realm of cheap and easy tropes and contrivances. It's hard to even hate them at this point as they are no longer characters.

[SporkFu]

In the beginning I don't think it was wrong to be skeptical, but skepticism =/= deliberate refusal to at least consider the possibility of something. 

 

i think it would have been really interesting, and added a lot to the way ME3 unfolded, if the council had begun to listen to shep -- and people like primarch Fedorian after Garrus' father convinced him to look into the reaper threat -- and actually did prepare, at least somewhat, for the reaper invasion, and the reapers came in and started obliterating everything anyway. Would have added to the whole feeling of desperation in fighting the reapers. Maybe we could have actually seen some evidence of winning the occasional battle against the reapers as the game progressed, and I mean something a little more substantial than 'your codex has been updated.' 

[ImaginaryMatter]

In the beginning I don't think it was wrong to be skeptical, but skepticism =/= deliberate refusal to at least consider the possibility of something. 

 

i think it would have been really interesting, and added a lot to the way ME3 unfolded, if the council had begun to listen to shep -- and people like primarch Fedorian after Garrus' father convinced him to look into the reaper threat -- and actually did prepare, at least somewhat, for the reaper invasion, and the reapers came in and started obliterating everything anyway. Would have added to the whole feeling of desperation in fighting the reapers. Maybe we could have actually seen some evidence of winning the occasional battle against the reapers as the game progressed, and I mean something a little more substantial than 'your codex has been updated.' 

 

I also think it would have been more interesting for the story if the Council was actually helpful or trying to be helpful, and when the Reapers came their plans fall through. It would have added to the feeling of desperation and the sense that the Reapers were this overwhelming force, versus being an obstacle that was only an obstacle because the galaxy is hamstringed by this unbelievably obstructionist group of politicians (I want flaws in my characters, not plot devices). It may make Shepard look like a bigger hero for progressing despite a massive handicap but it builds up a lot of resentment for the universe and the people in it.

[SporkFu]

I also think it would have been more interesting for the story if the Council was actually helpful or trying to be helpful, and when the Reapers came their plans fall through. It would have added to the feeling of desperation and the sense that the Reapers were this overwhelming force, versus being an obstacle that was only an obstacle because the galaxy is hamstringed by this unbelievably obstructionist group of politicians (I want flaws in my characters, not plot devices). It may make Shepard look like a bigger hero for progressing despite a massive handicap but it builds up a lot of resentment for the universe and the people in it.

Yup, I think we're kinda saying the same thing. I could definitely see, in the interval between 1 and 2 -- the two years shep spends dead -- the rest of the Normandy squad pressing their respective governments and having real tangible success -- Garrus, Liara, especially the council races, so that they begin to prepare council space for the reapers. Then Wrex on Tuchanka gets the krogan ready, and Tali gets the quarians ready -- or at least starts to, I could see Tali having a tough time with the quarians; they love to debate, and yeah she is the admiral's daughter, but she's also a kid just back from her pilgrimage. 

 

In ME3 shep would still have to get the krogan to co-operate with everybody else in council space, etc etc. 

 

It could've work... better than "oh let's just deny the reapers exist despite all shep's, and others', evidence and hope the problem just goes away." 

 

Ah well, we got what we got. 

[Farangbaa]

How many other species or whatever uses the term reaper? I would be curious as to why Benezia would mention the return of the reapers, but the council chose to ignore that

 

Oh for crying out loud Mike. There's even a gun in the game called Reaper. It's not like it's a brand new word.

[SporkFu]

I thought it was mentioned a few times in ME1 that 'reaper' was a name coined by the protheans to describe the beings who killed them. 

 

EDIT: Also, those tungsten miners on Mahavid didn't know what shep was referring to once not-Garneau blew up the artifact and released them from the Leviathan's mind-control. I think the exact quote was, "Reaper? What's a reaper?"

[ImaginaryMatter]

Yup, I think we're kinda saying the same thing. I could definitely see, in the interval between 1 and 2 -- the two years shep spends dead -- the rest of the Normandy squad pressing their respective governments and having real tangible success -- Garrus, Liara, especially the council races, so that they begin to prepare council space for the reapers. Then Wrex on Tuchanka gets the krogan ready, and Tali gets the quarians ready -- or at least starts to, I could see Tali having a tough time with the quarians; they love to debate, and yeah she is the admiral's daughter, but she's also a kid just back from her pilgrimage. 

 

In ME3 shep would still have to get the krogan to co-operate with everybody else in council space, etc etc. 

 

It could've work... better than "oh let's just deny the reapers exist despite all shep's, and others', evidence and hope the problem just goes away." 

 

Ah well, we got what we got. 

 

Shameless plug for my story idea's time!

 

If I was in charge I think this is how I would distribute the ME1 characters:

Council - Begins building up fleets, renew the patrols outside the Perseus Veil, entering diplomatic discussions with different government in the Terminus Systems, talking with the Quarians about retaking the Veil.

Anderson/Udina - depending on the human representative and Council version, the Alliance will get different concessions in various treaties.

Shepard - Doing main plot stuff

Liara - Joins a Council expedition team to explore the Prothean ruins on Ilos. Possibly recovering her mental health.

Garrus - Depending on interactions during ME1, he's either promoted at C-Sec or running possible Spectre business on Omega.

Wrex - Largely the same as ME2, although additionally he starts researching Saren's genophage cure (not cloning).

Tali - Heads back to flotilla.

Ashley - At wherever the Alliance sends people to become officers. Williams curse is lifted.

Kaidan - Remains with the Normandy SR1 (Shepard is given a different ship as the Normandy's stealth capacities are used to scout out the Perseus Veil).

[SporkFu]

Shameless plug for my story idea's time!

 

If I was in charge I think this is how I would distribute the ME1 characters:

Council - Begins building up fleets, renew the patrols outside the Perseus Veil, entering diplomatic discussions with different government in the Terminus Systems, talking with the Quarians about retaking the Veil.

Anderson/Udina - depending on the human representative and Council version, the Alliance will get different concessions in various treaties.

Shepard - Doing main plot stuff

Liara - Joins a Council expedition team to explore the Prothean ruins on Ilos. Possibly recovering her mental health.

Garrus - Depending on interactions during ME1, he's either promoted at C-Sec or running possible Spectre business on Omega.

Wrex - Largely the same as ME2, although additionally he starts researching Saren's genophage cure (not cloning).

Tali - Heads back to flotilla.

Ashley - At wherever the Alliance sends people to become officers. Williams curse is lifted.

Kaidan - Remains with the Normandy SR1 (Shepard is given a different ship as the Normandy's stealth capacities are used to scout out the Perseus Veil).

Why would Liara be recovering her mental health? 

Also, I thought patrolling for geth was what shep was doing in the six weeks between the end of ME1 and the collector attack on the Normandy? 

[ImaginaryMatter]

Why would Liara be recovering her mental health? 

Also, I thought patrolling for geth was what shep was doing in the six weeks between the end of ME1 and the collector attack on the Normandy? 

 

For Liara in case you picked her up last. I thought it would be funny if she was a little neurotic when you meet her in ME2.

 

Shepard was looking for the remnants of the force that attacked the Citadel. If I was the Council I would be more concerned about the huge unknown that is hiding behind the Perseus Veil. Following the Morning War the Council sent the Citadel Fleets to the Veil to insure the Geth didn't attack anyone else. Over time, given the Geth's isolationist stance, they pulled the fleets back. However, I think the Geth striking the heart of galactic government would rekindle those fears. I think the various governments would fear that if the Geth could attack the Citadel any of their planets could be next.

 

Since the Perseus Veil is also in/next to the Terminus Systems, the Citadel Fleets would have to move through. I think this would be a good set-up for exploring the relations between the Council and the non-Council governments which would contain all sorts of tension, drama, applicability, etc (since in ME1 the Terminus was a group of independent, alien governments; not the various colonies of the Citadel species). It also sets up resolving the Quarian/Geth conflict by getting the actual representatives involved instead of a few characters. There could still be tension between Shepard and the Council as the Council believes the Geth are the more imminent threat (which I think is reasonable considering for now the Reapers are trapped in Dark Space and the Geth are more adjacent) and Shepard can go gallivanting off to stop Reaper Plan B.

[Undead Han]

The weird thing about the Council air quoting Reapers in ME2, is that it wasn't necessary in order to push Shepard towards Cerberus. Why not just have the Council disagree with where their resources should be focused, rather than denying the existence of Reapers?

 

The war with the Geth was still going on at the start of Mass Effect 2, although you're told that the Geth have made themselves scarce and the war has entered a sort of mop up phase. Instead they could have had the war still be raging at full speed. With that as the back drop, the Collectors start attacking human colonies. Shepard argues that the Reapers are connected to the Collector attacks, but the Council chalks it up to pirates and is not yet willing to shift resources away from the fight with the Geth, who the Council sees as proven Reaper allies and a much greater threat.

 

Of course in order to justify the Council's laser like focus on the Geth you'd also need to have the Collector attacks be smaller in scale. A colony of 100,000 people going missing should get anyone's attention, as that seems far too large for a pirate raid. Instead have the Collectors attacking small colonies of a few hundred people.

[SporkFu]

I dunno, I think with the Sovvy and Saren both dead at the end of ME1, the geth war should have changed to a civil war between the -- what do we call them? True geth? -- and the heretics. Let them stay behind the Perseus Veil and beat the hell out of each-other for a while. Of course, to a geth a "while" could equal a whole minute, heh. 

[MrFob]

The weird thing about the Council air quoting Reapers in ME2, is that it wasn't necessary in order to push Shepard towards Cerberus. Why not just have the Council disagree with their resources should be focused, rather than denying the existence of Reapers?
 
The war with the Geth was still going on at the start of Mass Effect 2, although you're told that the Geth have made themselves scarce and the war has entered a sort of mop up phase. Instead they could have had the war still be raging at full speed. With that as the back drop, the Collectors start attacking human colonies. Shepard argues that the Reapers are connected to the Collector attacks, but the Council chalks it up to pirates and is not yet willing to shift resources (other than away from the fight with the Geth, who the Council sees as proven Reaper allies and a much greater threat.
 
Of course in order to justify the Council's laser like focus on the Geth you'd also need to have the Collector attacks be smaller in scale. A colony of 100,000 people going missing should get anyone's attention, as that seems far too large for a pirate raid. Instead have the Collectors attacking small colonies of a few hundred people.

To go further with this line of thouht, it would also not have hurt ME3 in the least if the council had quietly and secretly prepared. In fact, they wouldn't even have had to change the ME3 story one bit. Just show that, despite preparations, the reapers still blast through everything that the council could muster within 2 years. Thsi would have made the reapers even a greater menace and it would also have made the council look a bit more justified in refusing Shepard's initial call to help with the crucible. They could have said: "well, while you were off, playing nice with Cerberus, we actually prepared our own plan of defense. Now watch us!" Only after their plans fail would they be willing to join you one by one.

As for the thread, I do agree with the general sentiment here. In ME1, the portrayal of the council was fine (not great but ok). In ME2 it falls apart.