36 réponses à ce sujet

[Elhanan]

Except that neither of these is supported by the epilogue slides. The casteless gain no power under Harrowmont and some degree of freedom under Bhelen, and being a dwarf does nothing to change this. If this is headcanon, fine, but unless Inquisition changes things I don't think there's any case to be made that it actually happens.

Harrowmont dies shortly thereafter, yet nothing is said about the years that follow, as I recall. And it has already been noted elsewhere that the final slides are not considered canonical, where my Head canon is easily adjusted to compensate for historical perspective.

And Bhelen remains as remains....

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Harrowmont dies shortly thereafter, yet nothing is said about the years that follow, as I recall. And it has already been noted elsewhere that the final slides are not considered canonical, where my Head canon is easily adjusted to compensate for historical perspective.

And Bhelen remains as remains....

Yes, but until and unless the epilogue slides are contravened (which I've pointed out is entirely possible), they're what we have. Any in-game evidence that contravenes what they say I'll accept, but I think we can assume they did happen until then, especially since none of it is really out of character for either of them and is decently foreshadowed at a second glance.

 

As for the years that follow, do you really think that the Assembly that is fresh off even more privilege than they're previously accustomed to having is going to give it up?

[Nashina]

They both have their bad points:

 

Harrowmont still wants to keep with the regressive caste system, and wants to keep Orzammar closed off to everyone. He is essentially one of those old fogies who are usually in charge and like the status quo of keeping people in their place. And not allowing dwarfs who went to the surface to come back to their families (Dagna).

 

Behlen is a sociopathic jerk with what he did to his two siblings. He is someone who wanted power no matter the cost and will cut you if he doesn't have use for you anymore. 

 

First play through i picked Harrowmont because he seemed like a nicer guy.

All other play through i picked Behlen, because he would be good for Orzammar and i hope he starts to dismantle the stupid caste system. 

[Elhanan]

Yes, but until and unless the epilogue slides are contravened (which I've pointed out is entirely possible), they're what we have. Any in-game evidence that contravenes what they say I'll accept, but I think we can assume they did happen until then, especially since none of it is really out of character for either of them and is decently foreshadowed at a second glance.
 
As for the years that follow, do you really think that the Assembly that is fresh off even more privilege than they're previously accustomed to having is going to give it up?

I expect that a people that are slowly dying may see past their self-indulgence to survive; even greater odds with a Paragon DN or DC to help things along. In the meantime, they do not have to fret much over the tyrant that kills folks for standing in his way.

I tend not to regret doing the right thing for the right reasons, even if the results are not optimal. Like when doing something positive for a scam artist or client that is trying to take advantage; the wrong is on them, but I still am at peace with myself knowing that I did what is right.

Even when playing an Evil Warden, Harrowmont seems easier to control; not Bhelen. The only reason I saved him once was for the DC family. The rest of the time I help him to pretend he is more like Androste; just ashes in an urn.

[Mykel54]

Except that neither of these is supported by the epilogue slides

 

Yes, but until and unless the epilogue slides are contravened

 

 

I am sensing a pattern here.

 

How is the caste system bad for the dwarfs? Sure, it is bad for the casteless, but they are not part of the cast system. It would be nice for them to be integrated into the castes progresively, but current orzammar is already doing that (ex. noble hunters), and is not completely ignoring that manpower. The casteless also function as an example of how bad things could be, so lesser castes are happier in their station.

 

The caste system has nothing to do with the whole assembly vs king. I think Harrowmont strong point is that he preserves dwarven traditions, no matter if they seem good or not. While Bhelen changes seem promising for the merchant caste (surface trade) and the casteless (more rights), there could be problems for others like all manufacturers of orzammar - who face heavy competence with surface products who are now invading the market. The castes make sure to preserve a stable number of each profession at any time, no matter the economic circumstances, it is a form of economic interventionism.

 

I hope people can see beyond the epilogue slides.

 

For the record, here is my prefered epilogue slide.

[Exaltation]

I just choose Harrowmont and destroying the Anvil,resulting in Harrowmont dieing too.

[Dark Helmet]

Bhelen now, Bhelen tomorrow, Bhelen forever.

[Han Shot First]

I am sensing a pattern here.

 

How is the caste system bad for the dwarfs? Sure, it is bad for the casteless, but they are not part of the cast system. It would be nice for them to be integrated into the castes progresively, but current orzammar is already doing that (ex. noble hunters), and is not completely ignoring that manpower. The casteless also function as an example of how bad things could be, so lesser castes are happier in their station.

 

 

It is bad for the dwarves because they are threatened with extinction from the darkspawn. A good chunk of the city's citizenry is being completely wasted. Allowing the casteless to serve as warriors would increase Orzammar's manpower pool and make the city better able to resist the darkspawn.

[KaiserShep]

Caste systems are nice for insect hives, but they tend to get pretty rotten when applied to people.

As for preserving a certain number of any given variety of tradesperson, the irony is that the casteless being barred from participating totally contradicts that idea.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As for preserving a certain number of any given variety of tradesperson, the irony is that the casteless being barred from participating totally contradicts that idea.

On the contrary, I think to some degree it follows from it. The casteless are those who Orzammar considers to be surplus, and they are given the jobs that are likewise considered leftovers by those who can do more skilled labor. To some degree that happens in all societies, only Orzammar handles them inhumanly. (Which is also not uncommon, but Orzammar takes the cake. Even a Tevinter Magister, who has probably personally killed some of the slaves whom she considered to be surplus, was replused by what GoA establishes some of the dwarves are willing to do to their surplus.)

 

(And this is without getting into the condition of Orzammar's armies, which to put it simply is that Orzammar has no surplus warriors. On the contrary they're running a deficit.)

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 When I first played and entered Orzammar I was initially leaning Harrowmont since it sounded like he was the one who was supposed to be king anyway, but when his rep asked for a favor, I had Zevran in my party, who points out how weak he is for letting threats and intimidation scare his proving fighters away. So I opted for Bhelen. When I replay I cross and double-cross them, since the story arc seems to play to that more than giving one candidate your full support (such as having to fetch Branka), and fighting in the provings is so much better than the dungeon crawl Bhelen sends you on, but still I ultimately side with Bhelen.

[kimgoold]

I know that Bhelen in a d-word but he is the better choice, I'm all for helping the downtrodden in game if I can and Bhelen will be better for the casteless than Harrowmont. And in future possible alliance with Ferelden, which will be needed after blight and any aggression from Orlais.