120 réponses à ce sujet

[AutumnWitch]

Magic is like any other weapon, its neither good nor bad. Its the person you wields it that matters.  A good person with honour and true character is no more likely to use magic for ill then the same person is to use a dagger or sword. The problem is that not all people are honourable and of good character. Mages have an added problem in that are treated as maleficent creatures from birth. You throw people in a locked tower and tell them they are monsters just for existing their whole lives, some will start to believe it and many that don't will become resentful and bitter. Is there any wonder why do many Mages end up the way they do?  

[thetinyevil]

Magic is neither is good nor evil. It depends on the person wielding it. Mages do need training but not how the circles are now. The circles as they are are evil and need to be completely destroyed and rebuilt as something that isn't a torture chamber.

[Gill Kaiser]

I think it's cool.

 

It's a phenomenon of the natural world, that's all. Poorly understood. I'm sure if Thedas reached the Enlightenment and beyond, they would have more scholars like Dagna and might be able to gain an understanding of the mechanisms of magic and why certain people are mages.

[Tenno]

It is both a gift and a curse, to be able to wield the balance of life or death so easily, and at the same time, the fear of slipping so easily into darkness and being corrupted by demons for having a weak mind. The circles has too many flaws, and in its rawest form, it is like slavery, but the real fear of magic is having it stripped from you forcefully and being made tranquil.

[Helios969]

A game mechanic that at times in the past was poorly implemented in-game.  In truth I cannot fully separate my scientific brain from such story devices.  I'm always thinking how magic might really work.  If one could control the movement of atomic particles, electric and magnetic fields, endothermic and exothermic reactions...they could do something like magic.

[heretica]

 Spirits pervert natural things into creatures of mostly malignant purpose (even when that purpose is only driven by a total lack of understanding).  

 

I always thought spirits were "good". They "fed" on good emotions, that's why you have spirits of justice, spirit of healing (Wynne) etc. Demons are a different story. Anyway, inhabitants of the fade, the first children of the Maker if you want to put it that way, seem to be very one dimentional. They are either good or bad,

 

Each spell you cast you have to mentally open to the Fade.. And the way it's described sometimes almost sounds trance-like (not to mention that you start hearing the voices of spirits and demons). Personally I don't like this kind of experience.. it kind of reminds me of when I used to get high and at times, slip into another state of consciousness. Nowadays, I like feeling really grounded. It'd be screwed up to always feel like you have one foot in another world.

 

Yeah, not to mention the fact that in this world people will look at you with suspicion born out of ignorance. It really comes down to education. If you teach both mages and non mages about magic, things would be very different. 

 

Spoiler

DA:O did a very good job at making you feel uncomfortable if you chose to play an elf. The world was responsive towards your choice. Elves are seen as second-class citizens and that's the way they treated you generally. (especially if you picked the City Elf origin.) I'm curious to see how the world will react in DA:I if you chose to be, let's say, a necromancer or a warrior siding with Templars. I understand this might be difficult to implement in game for obvious reasons, but it would be nice if we had characters around us with strong opinions regarding magic, elves, etc.

[MisterJB]

Magic is dangerous in all its forms, from demonic possession to accidents to the simple fact it gives people an advantage over others that they will use to, at worst, physically harm others and, at best, to dominate society.

Of course, it is also useful and, sadly, attached to living people. Therefore, the best way of dealing with it is a well run Circle like Ferelden's.

 

Also, the Circle is not slavery is any way or shape. Mages have rights and freedoms which means they are't considered to be objects and they aren't forced to work or do anything beyond remain at the Circle and study. It is no more slavery than a mental institute or a prison are.

[BloodKaiden]

I think Tevinter has the right idea...

[Tevinter Soldier]

I confess that Magic teacheth many superfluous things, and curious prodigies for ostentation; leave them as empty things, yet be not ignorant of their causes. But those things which are for the profit of men -- for the turning away of evil events, for the destroying of sorceries, for the curing of diseases, for the exterminating of phantasms, for the preserving of life, honor, or fortune -- may be done without offense to God or injury to religion, because they are, as profitable, so necessary.

HEINRICH CORNELIUS AGRIPPA, Three Books of Occult Philosophy or Magic

[heretica]

 

 

Also, the Circle is not slavery is any way or shape. Mages have rights and freedoms which means they are't considered to be objects and they aren't forced to work or do anything beyond remain at the Circle and study. It is no more slavery than a mental institute or a prison are.

 

What freedom do they have? They are not even free to decide if they want to be in the circle or not, to begin with. They aren't forced to work? Look at the tranquil, all they do is work on enchantment, they are a massive economic support for the Circle. It is slavery because they are torn apart from their families at a young age, are denied a normal life just because of magic (they cannot reclaim any titles, lands or anything their families owned), are denied LOVE, a normal life. They cannot chose to leave the circle at any given time. Some might find the circle comfortable, but what about the ones that don't? Where is the choice there? Where is freedom? 

 

What about templar mistreatment?

[MisterJB]

What freedom do they have?

Well, right out of the top of my head, the freedom of association which is expressed through the formation of Fraternities, for instance. Do you think that Tevinter slaves have parties that have enough time to bicker amidst themselves that they will actually divide into multiple parties with different ideologies?

 

They aren't forced to work? Look at the tranquil, all they do is work on enchantment, they are a massive economic support for the Circle.

They are working to provide for themselves and their community just like everyone else in the world does.

If the mages want to starve, be my guest.

 

It is slavery because they are torn apart from their families at a young age, are denied a normal life just because of magic (they cannot reclaim any titles, lands or anything their families owned), are denied LOVE, a normal life.

Ok, slavery has a defining set of characteristics that can be attributed to it. You can't just pick something you don't like and suddenly call it slavery.

Quite frankly, most of what you claimed as evidence they are slaves as nothing to do with slavery. Slaves are allowed to have children or find love, for instance. It's called breeding. And mages are not denied love. Didn't you hear Anders? In Ferelden's Circle, everyone was kissing everyone.

 

The most commonly accepted characteristics are to consider a person to be an object, property. However, mages have rights and freedoms like I said previously; mobiliary does not. Even the Templars themselves won't claim that they command the Circle, they simply police it. Of course, said freedoms and rights aren't always respected but City Guards can also abuse their power.

 

Another characteristic is to force the slave to work for its owner. However, mages work only to provide for themselves.

 

Therefore, the Circle is not slavery. It can be a prison, a refuge, even a seat of power depending where you live but it's not a slave pen.

If you wish to, I can procure you a quote from David Gaider himself claiming that the Circle is not slavery.

 

 

They cannot chose to leave the circle at any given time. Some might find the circle comfortable, but what about the ones that don't? Where is the choice there? Where is freedom?

Of course they aren't allowed to simply leave the Circle whenever they please. We are talking about people capable of destroying small villages when they're freaking children (Connor).

However, working with the Templars and proving you're relatively harmless will merit you greater freedoms and it doesn't even take your whole live. We have plenty of examples of mages being allowed to leave the Circle if the Templars feel they are safe to do so.

Wynne, Gregoir, Finn, Rhys, Adrian, Ines, Bethany, Mharen, etc.

 

So, yes, they have restrictions. As they should. You and I have restrictions upon our freedoms as well. They just aren't as harsh because we can't skin people alive with our minds.

 

What about templar mistreatment?

 

What about mage mistreatment? Templar mistreatment is no different from mistreatment from any other person with power.

It's a problem and it should be dealt with but it doesn't automatically discount the Circle and the good it has done. For both normal people and mages.
 

[Darkly Tranquil]

And so it begins...

[heretica]

I'm having a bit of difficulty with the format of these new forums, so please bear with me. I'll highlight the parts you wrote and give my opinion. 

 

 

 

Well, right out of the top of my head, the freedom of association. 

 

Freedom of association is not freedom of choice. I feel we are talking about two different things here. First of all, there is freedom understood as freedom of will. One cannot be a free indivual under such circumstances. Simply because freedom is just not there. So if we take slavery as the deprivation of one’s freedom, then this IS slavery. Sure, they can choose to form fraternities, but that’s a whole different story we can discuss if you like.  I’d assume it goes under “Circle politics”. 

 

They are working to provide for themselves and their community just like everyone else in the world does.

If the mages want to starve, be my guest.

 

 

 

The circle is a chantry creation, therefore they rely on them. I assume the Circle is funded by the Chantry, just as any public school is funded by the government. So one could think the enchanting and the trading of goods done there is a side activity that doesn’t even benefit the Tranquil itself because, can they be considered as persons? But you make a point there. I’d imagine the money goes into the Circle under the form of food and supplies etc.

 

 

Ok, slavery has a defining set of characteristics that can be attributed to it. You can't just pick something you don't like and suddenly call it slavery.

Quite frankly, most of what you claimed as evidence they are slaves as nothing to do with slavery. Slaves are allowed to have children or find love, for instance. It's called breeding. And mages are not denied love. Didn't you hear Anders? In Ferelden's Circle, everyone was kissing everyone.

 

I am not picking something I dislike and suddenly I am calling it slavery. I got an argument here based on the deprivation of freedom, which is one of the characteristics that define slavery. That’s the main issue. That there is no freedom to choose if they want to be put in a Circle and isolated from everyone else as if they had an infectious disease. You can’t just cage human beings in a tower, whatever your reason might be, it’s just not right.

 

Maybe I am being totally anachronic here and not contextualizing properly the situation. But seeing how the rest of the world (Fenris, as an example) react towards slavery, I assume there is some degree of human rights sense in Thedas.

 

 

The most commonly accepted characteristics are to consider a person to be an object, property. However, mages have rights and freedoms like I said previously; mobiliary does not.

 

Mobiliary is not considered human. It’s a thing. Mages ARE considered property of the Circle. Even the offspring of two mages is considered a property of the Chantry. It is to be taken from their parents and raised separately. (This idea you can read it under the Circle article written in the DA Wiki)

 

 

Even the Templars themselves won't claim that they command the Circle, they simply police it. Of course, said freedoms and rights aren't always respected but City Guards can also abuse their power.

 

Yeah, but two wrongs don’t make a right. That’s just not valid.

 

 

Another characteristic is to force the slave to work for its owner. However, mages work only to provide for themselves.

 

Therefore, the Circle is not slavery. It can be a prison, a refuge, even a seat of power depending where you live but it's not a slave pen.

If you wish to, I can procure you a quote from David Gaider himself claiming that the Circle is not slavery.

 

Here you make a valid point. The Circle could be understood as many things: refuge, seat of power etc. IF the mages were free to choose if they want to be put there.

It would be interesting to read that quote, since David Gaider IS one of the intellectual creators of this land we love called Thedas

 

 

(...) We have plenty of examples of mages being allowed to leave the Circle if the Templars feel they are safe to do so.

Wynne, Gregoir, Finn, Rhys, Adrian, Ines, Bethany, Mharen, etc.

 

But then again, why does anyone else have to decide for you? 

 

 

What about mage mistreatment? Templar mistreatment is no different from mistreatment from any other person with power. (...)

 

Still, it’s as if you said “it’s valid” because other people do it. Not a very good example. I do agree with you that the Circle, as institution, has done good because they teach mages about magic or provide aid when there are problems involving demons or magic.

 

PD. Why does it seem people get mad at people discussing things regarding Dragon Age, in the official  Dragon Age forum ? It baffles me. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@GreyvsGray:  I'm almost exclusively a mage player and will be playing one in DA:I - an analysis of magic must be without personal bias. 

 

@Catt128:  Spirit, with a capital, is what both spirits and demons are.  They're entities based on an entirely different set of natural laws than anything Thedas could produce.  They are blank slates who encounter dynamic human emotions and start mimicking them.  

 

@Nobody in general: 

It has nothing to do with whether or not the Fade, Magic and Spirits are "evil" or "good" - it is whether they are hostile to Thedas that is of any real concern.  

In the same way that an asteroid slamming into our planet is not "evil" - but it IS hostile to our existence.  

 

However - the Fade is an entirely different dimension with entirely different laws.  It is a hostile reality - not just some natural piece of space debris.  

 

Mages could easily be considered a natural defense mechanism by Thedas.

 

One might wonder if magic would even exist on Thedas were it not for sapient creatures - as the Spirits in the Fade would have no inspiration to interact with this reality because there would be no thought or imagination.  

[Muspade]

Magic is like learning to fight with a sword except in this case, the sword might attempt to spontaneously murder you if you're being too reckless.

[lil yonce]

One might wonder if magic would even exist on Thedas were it not for sapient creatures - as the Spirits in the Fade would have no inspiration to interact with this reality because there would be no thought or imagination.  

Magic should still exist because lyrium would and its raw magic. The presence of lyrium on Thedas also suggests IMO that the Veil didn't always exist.

[Medhia_Nox]

Magic, from lyrium, would exist as a natural non-renewable resource like oil then - but, and especially with the magic devouring presence of red lyrium - it wouldn't be long (centuries perhaps).  That Thedas solidifies magic into lyrium deposits also supports my claim that Thedas tries to "deal" with magic by containing it.

 

And when was this mysterious "no Veil"  - was it during the 8000 years of elven civilization?  Or the 2000 years of human civilization after that?  And how would Yavana know for certain what the world was like 10,000 years ago.

 

If the separation of Fade and Thedas is the same as "no Veil" - then the catastrophic events of Inquisition cement my claims.  The Fade is totally hostile to sapient life and Thedas.  Any idea of harmony with the Fade is fan-based headcanon.  The only way a mortal could survive in such a place is to become consumed by a Fade entity and exist as an abomination.  The Fade and its inhabitants aren't interested in form pacts with their food. 

[MisterJB]

Freedom of association is not freedom of choice. I feel we are talking about two different things here. First of all, there is freedom understood as freedom of will. One cannot be a free indivual under such circumstances. Simply because freedom is just not there. So if we take slavery as the deprivation of one’s freedom, then this IS slavery. Sure, they can choose to form fraternities, but that’s a whole different story we can discuss if you like.  I’d assume it goes under “Circle politics”. 

Freedom of association is a freedom. Mages have freedom of association, therefore they have freedoms.

They have others as well. Freedom is not something that you either have it all or you have nothing. You can be free and still have freedoms restricted. In fact, every person who is free also has their freedoms restricted because that is how society and the judicial system works.

 

The circle is a chantry creation, therefore they rely on them. I assume the Circle is funded by the Chantry, just as any public school is funded by the government. So one could think the enchanting and the trading of goods done there is a side activity that doesn’t even benefit the Tranquil itself because, can they be considered as persons? But you make a

point there. I’d imagine the money goes into the Circle under the form of food and supplies etc.

The Circle is actually as much of a Mage creation as a Chantry one. They agreed to separate themselves from society and the Chantry agreed to allow them to use magic.

It was an agreement the mages are trying to break now.

Regardless, there isn't much info on how the Circles or Templars are mantained but we do know every money made by Tranquils reverts to the Circle. If the Chantry also funds them, that's just too much.

 

And of course the Tranquil are people. Some people feel emotions strongly, others not so much.

 

 

I am not picking something I dislike and suddenly I am calling it slavery. I got an argument here based on the deprivation of freedom, which is one of the characteristics that define slavery. That’s the main issue. That there is no freedom to choose if they want to be put in a Circle and isolated from everyone else as if they had an infectious disease. You can’t just cage human beings in a tower, whatever your reason might be, it’s just not right.

 

Maybe I am being totally anachronic here and not contextualizing properly the situation. But seeing how the rest of the world (Fenris, as an example) react towards slavery, I assume there is some degree of human rights sense in Thedas.

Deprivation of freedoms is not, by itself, sufficient to make something slavery.

As I said before, we are being deprived of freedoms every day. It's why we have a legal system that tells us what is and isn't alright to do.

And there are, of course, situations where people can be deprived of their freedoms even further and more than other people. For instance, like you said, if they are or we simply fear they have a contagious disease; if we feel they are mentally unsound; if they have commited a crime, etc.

 

In the World of Thedas, the people have decided the dangers mage pose merit isolation.

 

 

Mobiliary is not considered human. It’s a thing. Mages ARE considered property of the Circle. Even the offspring of two mages is considered a property of the Chantry. It is to be taken from their parents and raised separately. (This idea you can read it under the Circle article written in the DA Wiki)

The mages form the Circle and they belong to it, that is all.

As for their children, the Chantry cares for them because the Circle is no plase to raise someone. However, there is nothing that indicates they aren't free.

 

 

Yeah, but two wrongs don’t make a right. That’s just not valid.

I'm not saying Templar abuses are right. Only that they aren't unique in Thedas and that mages are not that special.

 

 

Here you make a valid point. The Circle could be understood as many things: refuge, seat of power etc. IF the mages were free to choose if they want to be put there.

Why? Even if you don't choose to go there, it doesn't mean it can't become your home.

Let us not forget that the Circle is quite luxurious (Orlais' is located in Drakon's former palace) and provides an education most Thedosians can only dream of.

If anything, chances are the quality of life of mages is vastly superior to that of peasants.

 

It would be interesting to read that quote, since David Gaider IS one of the intellectual creators of this land we love called Thedas

Very well.

 

http://forum.bioware...ntended/page-10

"The mages aren't slaves.

Some people might refer to them as such-- Anders, for one, though I don't know if he's the sort of supporting argument you want to use-- but I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that not being free and being a slave are different things.

They are definitely not free. In Kirkwall, they are tantamount to prisoners. According to the law of the Circle of Magi, they have a certain amount of rights if very limited personal freedom. How much those laws are respected will vary from tower to tower. Either way, however, they are not owned by the Chantry, nor are they forced into servitude (meaning they are not forced to perform work or any other service on the Chantry's behalf).

If someone wishes to see the Chantry as heartless oppressors, by all means-- there are many ways to interpret the situation, and that's intentional. If someone tries to argue that there are absolutes involved, or that anything we've written suggests there are, they're quite simply deluded-- not to put too fine a point on it."

 

But then again, why does anyone else have to decide for you? 

Because mages are extremely dangerous. It seems rather reasonable to have people with the best interests of non-magical people in mind to be able to determine whether a mage is secure enough to be out amongst the normal folk.

 

 

PD. Why does it seem people get mad at people discussing things regarding Dragon Age, in the official  Dragon Age forum ? It baffles me. 

It's just that some of us have been around since before DA2 was out and we've had these discussions literally hundreds of times in the past and we never reach any conclusion. Often it ends with person attacks and the users storming off to plan genocide.

The arguments I've used in this post, are the same I've used against  dozens of other pro-mages. All it changes is the wording.

[lil yonce]

That Thedas solidifies magic into lyrium deposits also supports my claim that Thedas tries to "deal" with magic by containing it. [snip]

Or maybe something immaterial like magic just clumps together into something physical in the mundane world naturally?

 

Anyway, why do you say red lyrium devours magic?

 

And if Yavana knew those details, Flemeth told her, and I would trust Flemeth because she isn't exactly human and has lived for centuries at least, likely longer. Also, Yavana hints that to destroy magic is to destroy the world w/ something like "the blood of dragons is the blood of the world", and that her job was to "preserve". The dragon eggs in the Hall of Sleepers look like lyrium crystals. The Veil may be necessary to protect mundane life, I haven't even argued that it isn't, but everything points to magic being natural and fundamental to all life on Thedas, veil or no veil.

[the inquisitor94]

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him. I believe that magic is one of the deadliest weapons and gifts in Thedas but that doesnt make it evil. Only the practitioners can define it. Can you blame the murderer or the gun? You can destroy whole cities with a small movement of your hand. But magic is one of the biggest gifts as you can use it to alter the world for the better, you are able to heal and save lives, help the needy (remember Anders before growing vengeful).

 

Also the magic in the Fade it holds both benevolent and malevolent spirits. So everything isnt black and white but grey. Magic is neutral and maybe vital for the life in Thedas.

 

Finally i am conflicted between the oppression and the free practice of magic. I don't know what the result would come if magic was all again free. Maybe a new tyranny would emerge or the world would never  to this apocalyptic phase with the Breach and the torn Veil. Maybe there should be a better compromise between mages and the templars/ chantry. 

[Pierce Miller]

Magic is.....the most awesome thing in all of Thedas, honestly it's the one thing my characters are ever interested in.

[DangerousLiasin]

I think of mages kind of like Marines. You train them to use their power and they should be able to go about their lives. But if they use that training to harm an innocent, then you throw the book at them.

[DangerousLiasin]

[quote name="MisterJB" post="17541169" timestamp="1413714962"

Also, the Circle is not slavery is any way or shape. Mages have rights and freedoms which means they are't considered to be objects and they aren't forced to work or do anything beyond remain at the Circle and study. It is no more slavery than a mental institute or a prison are.[/quote]

Uh, you go to prison because you're a criminal and a mental institute because you are crazy and a danger to yourself or others. So tell a 5 year-old that shows signs of magic that he's going to a prison/circle because he is born the way he is. How is that not slavery? Your a child mage, let's lock you in a tower and if you do anything wrong we are going to give you a lobotomy. No difference, really.