209 réponses à ce sujet

[Revan Reborn]

That's exactly what I want from combat.  I never want to do anything in real time.

 

 

I found Oblivion really amusing on this, because of how levelling worked.

 

I planned a character at the start who was a merchant.  He was imprisoned for some underhanded business dealing, but all of his starting skills were non-combative.

 

But the way levelling works in Oblivion, that meant that my character only gained levels if he increased those non-combat skills, and that pretty much didn't happen.  So I managed, on my first playthrough, to accidentally break the game's scaling system.  I levelled up exactly once in the whole game.  But since my other skills could increase freely, I gained powerful magic without having the world scale with me.  I'd summon Atronachs who'd clear whole dungeons for me.  It was hilarious.

 

Also, though, Oblivion was also the first TES game that wasn't truly open world.  You weren't allowed to enter the cities by climbing the walls anymore.  And I miss the early TES spells like Slow Fall and Levitate.

Ah, fair enough. I personally feel more immersed and engaged in real time combat as that's how TES has always been and just having a long history of playing shooters. Admittedly, Fallout 3 was much different from its Interplay/Black Isle predecessors. Perhaps if they gave us the option of doing both styles, much like Dragon Age Inquisition with real time and tactical view, that might be an ideal compromise.

 

Yeah, while it's not necessarily great from a game play standpoint, there are always hilarious stories of how people either broke or exploited TES games for unintended consequences. I do not miss levitate really at all lol. It was so incredibly broken. You could beat Morrowind in less than five minutes if you used levitate. Now, if BioWare were to place restrictions on it and build their maps to be more vertical in scale and not just horizontal, it could work. However, the unhindered, overpowered levitation in Morrowind was too much. Magic in general has always been broken. Don't even get me started on spell-crafting in Oblivion.

 

There is a difference to being powerful and then just being game breaking lol. BGS has crossed the line more than once, especially when it comes to schools of magic. I would love to see climbing make a return though. It would have made traversing Skyrim so much easier, and that much immersive if you had to pull out a couple of picks and start climbing the side of a mountain.

[Revan Reborn]

I can't speak for anyone else, but it find exploring type games pretty boring. The lack of a directed plot was probably my biggest issue with Skyrim - I just didn't know where I was supposed to go, and just wandering around fighting things and talking to people seemed fairly uninteresting when I have been given no reason to care about any of them.

I know a lot of people complain about "on-rails" game design, but I honestly prefer a directed game and narrative design than open world where you wander around trying to find things to do. The Last of Us, which I regard as the best written game I have ever played (25+ years as a gamer) was entirely on-rails game design, but I never felt more invested in a game and it's characters than in it.

Hopefully DAI will have a decent amount of exploring (but not too much), while giving us narrative reasons to want to go exploring.

It's something you either have an interest in or you don't. When I first played Morrowind, I was very much the same way. I grew up playing Nintendo titles such as Legend of Zelda where you had a clear goal and objective. You didn't have that in Morrowind, and for many weeks I just wandered aimlessly trying to figure out what the point of the game was. Eventually I realized, the game is what I make it. I don't need to do the main quest. I don't really need to do anything at all. I can go where I want and I can do what I want. If I wanted to kill Fargoth and take his house because he was incredibly obnoxious, I could do that.

 

If I wanted to become a vampire, yet deal with the consequences of being shunned and hated by everyone, that was a choice I needed to make. TES games are just those experiences where you really get to build the game the way you want. There is no direction, and for some they either don't like it or find it intimidating. I personally find it absolutely spectacular, and while I enjoy linear experiences, something about me defining my own path just never gets old.

 

Hopefully DAI will be a nice, healthy mix. I've just found most games that generally go big usually don't add a lot to that experience and generally just waste a lot of space.

[LostInReverie19]

I'm the complete opposite to you, OP. I generally can't stand open world games because of that lack of story and characterization. It's why I've never been able to get into games like Oblivion and Skyrim no matter how hard I try. I own both of those Elder Scrolls games, and I always get bored with them relatively quickly.

 

Exploring the mostly empty spaces of Skyrim is not my idea of fun. Quests are so boring, because they have little to no story. It's just fetch this for me or go kill that thing for me. I can see how you'd like it, because the lack of story in-game allows you to create your own story for your character, but if I wanted to do that, I'd just sit down and actually write. When I'm playing a game, I want to experience it like it's a movie or a really good book. That's why I love BioWare games so much. They are some of the only games out there that can really compete with the best movies and books. If any video games can be considered art, I'd put BioWare's games in that category. The Witcher games are also really great in this regard, probably because the developers are such big fans of BioWare. CDProjektRed can pretty much be considered BioWare's protege.

 

I agree that if BioWare tries to go too far down the open world route, they will have to compromise their awesome storytelling ability, and that is the last thing I want to see. If they do that, BioWare's games will just be like any other developer's, with nothing to make them stand out. It is BioWare's great stories that make the games so great. Other games have better combat. Other games have open world. But BioWare, imo, has the best stories and characters of all game developers.

 

DA:I looks like it's not too open world that it would sacrifice the good story telling. Another aspect of open world games that bother me is the lack of direction. I prefer linear games, because I'm a control-freak and a completionist. Now imagine putting a diehard completionist into a game like Skyrim with absolutely no idea where to start and how to go about getting all the damn quests. Yeah, it's not pretty. lol. Skyrim is almost enough to give a control-freak completionist like me a damn panic attack. Ha.

[Darkly Tranquil]

I think choice here is between width or depth of design; you can have a huge open world, with a plot an inch deep, or you can have a smaller, more narrowly defined world, with a much deeper plot. It seems to be beyond the limitations of present day game design to have both at the same time, so something invariably has to give. DA trying to ape the open world design of Skyrim will most likely only result in diluting the story and character elements that are their great strength.

[SolNebula]

I'm certain BW is able to find a middle ground between skyrim style of open world which lacks a good story and mass effect 3 style which lacks any exploration thus taking away any replay value. I like the direction they took with DAI a semi open world with a strong story. Exploration frames the way we are continuing our adventure

[Revan Reborn]

I'm the complete opposite to you, OP. I generally can't stand open world games because of that lack of story and characterization. It's why I've never been able to get into games like Oblivion and Skyrim no matter how hard I try. I own both of those Elder Scrolls games, and I always get bored with them relatively quickly.

 

Exploring the mostly empty spaces of Skyrim is not my idea of fun. Quests are so boring, because they have little to no story. It's just fetch this for me or go kill that thing for me. I can see how you'd like it, because the lack of story in-game allows you to create your own story for your character, but if I wanted to do that, I'd just sit down and actually write. When I'm playing a game, I want to experience it like it's a movie or a really good book. That's why I love BioWare games so much. They are some of the only games out there that can really compete with the best movies and books. If any video games can be considered art, I'd put BioWare's games in that category. The Witcher games are also really great in this regard, probably because the developers are such big fans of BioWare. CDProjektRed can pretty much be considered BioWare's protege.

 

I agree that if BioWare tries to go too far down the open world route, they will have to compromise their awesome storytelling ability, and that is the last thing I want to see. If they do that, BioWare's games will just be like any other developer's, with nothing to make them stand out. It is BioWare's great stories that make the games so great. Other games have better combat. Other games have open world. But BioWare, imo, has the best stories and characters of all game developers.

 

DA:I looks like it's not too open world that it would sacrifice the good story telling. Another aspect of open world games that bother me is the lack of direction. I prefer linear games, because I'm a control-freak and a completionist. Now imagine putting a diehard completionist into a game like Skyrim with absolutely no idea where to start and how to go about getting all the damn quests. Yeah, it's not pretty. lol. Skyrim is almost enough to give a control-freak completionist like me a damn panic attack. Ha.

I could see why you find Skyrim incredibly frustrating. You would absolutely despise Morrowind lol.

 

I'm not much of a completionist myself, as I really like to determine what is of value to me or not. I have completed most of the content in Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, but certainly it's no easy task and it would take a very long time versus other RPGs.

 

I certainly understand your appeal to BioWare and CDPR. Their games really are more like movies and they appreciate storytelling and character development above all else. I love their games for that, but when it comes to a game, I like to have control and determine my own experience. Like you said earlier, If I wanted to see a movie or read a book, I could just do that. A video game, in my opinion, is allowing me to actually be the main character in a book or a movie, without the plot or script dictating how I advance in the experience.

 

I think choice here is between width or depth of design; you can have a huge open world, with a plot an inch deep, or you can have a smaller, more narrowly defined world, with a much deeper plot. It seems to be beyond the limitations of present day game design to have both at the same time, so something invariably has to give. DA trying to ape the open world design of Skyrim will most likely only result in diluting the story and character elements that are their great strength.

BioWare is definitely going to play it safe and take baby steps. Right now, they are just expanding the size of zones rather than going full-blown open world. I think they are really trying to test the waters and get some feedback on what people love or hate about their approach to a large world. I think it's quite possible going forward that their titles will become more open world in nature.

[Revan Reborn]

I'm certain BW is able to find a middle ground between skyrim style of open world which lacks a good story and mass effect 3 style which lacks any exploration thus taking away any replay value. I like the direction they took with DAI a semi open world with a strong story. Exploration frames the way we are continuing our adventure

At the very least we can agree it adds more variety and content to the experience. I still personally prefer a non-linear experience myself, but DAI is certainly offering more to do and explore, which I'm also a fan of.

[In Exile]

I can't speak for anyone else, but it find exploring type games pretty boring. The lack of a directed plot was probably my biggest issue with Skyrim - I just didn't know where I was supposed to go, and just wandering around fighting things and talking to people seemed fairly uninteresting when I have been given no reason to care about any of them.

I know a lot of people complain about "on-rails" game design, but I honestly prefer a directed game and narrative design than open world where you wander around trying to find things to do. The Last of Us, which I regard as the best written game I have ever played (25+ years as a gamer) was entirely on-rails game design, but I never felt more invested in a game and it's characters than in it.

Hopefully DAI will have a decent amount of exploring (but not too much), while giving us narrative reasons to want to go exploring.

I don't think this was a flaw - rather, I would see it as a feature. This is the kind of thing that can create an exmergent experience that is valuable. To use a superior game as an example, in FN:NV you can have a very different experience by pursuing the powder gangers to their home and just exterminating them to the last, versus going on to Primm and looping back to the gang to pick up a sherrif for them, even with a very goody-goody character.

The issue in Skyrim is that the world - for all its seanlessness - is just a bunch of unrelated sandboxes that don't ever interact with one another. There are changes that happen because of monster raids etc., but they're all superficial.

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

We'll see about that.  Hopefully you are right, but I haven't seen anything that would suggest this.

did you not watch the E3 demo? It showed Redcliffe Village before going to the castle I think that qualifies as a town since its also a returning one from Origins 

[A.Kazama]

No, they do not need to go open world. It is great the way its done now. (or as far as shown anyways) 

 

And if they do elder scrolls fanboys will be all over that complaining about how terrible it is and its a cheap rip off blah blah blah...

[PillarBiter]

I'm not much of a fan of open world RPGs, precisely BECAUSE they lack focus. I like a bit of liberty, don't get me wrong, but I don't mind a linear story. 

 

I think Bioware will have hit the sweet spot with DAI.

[Navasha]

It all comes down to how its implemented to be honest.    There is nothing inherently wrong with open world games.    I love TES games.   They build the best worlds BY FAR.   However, game resources are ultimately limited.    Their large open world comes at the significant cost of lack of story, characters with little to no depth, etc.

 

Bioware generally does just the opposite.   Focus on great story and characters at the cost of having a limited world to navigate.   

 

I always said, the best game of all time would be a TES world filled with Bioware characters and story.    Sadly, that is probably beyond the scope of what a developer could (or be allowed) to create.  

 

If Bioware has managed to take a couple steps toward a "TES-like" open world without sacrificing the quality of its characters and story, its going to be a good thing.

[Ieldra]

There isn't the one and true open-world design. "Open-world-ness" is a sliding scale, proportional to how much of the world is locked by the main plot when the game starts, how piecemeal it is unlocked as you proceed through the story, and how much of it is re-locked after its main plot events are past. At one end of the scale we have the TES games, where the world is almost completely open at any time, and games like ME3 on the other, where no content exists which isn't part of the main plot and most locations are only accessible once. 

 

DAI will fall somewhere in the middle, with a significant part of the world locked by the main plot at the start but with considerable freedom to do things apart from the main plot within the unlocked areas at any time after they've been unlocked. For me personally, this looks like a "best of both worlds" scenario. I like to have a good storyline which represents a significant part of the game, but I also like free exploration.

 

I can't be the only one who gets a "back to the roots, only better" vibe from this setup. The BG games were somewhat similar.

[Almostfaceman]

I can't be the only one who gets a "back to the roots, only better" vibe from this setup. The BG games were somewhat similar.

 

[viperidae]

There isn't the one and true open-world design. "Open-world-ness" is a sliding scale, proportional to how much of the world is locked by the main plot when the game starts, how piecemeal it is unlocked as you proceed through the story, and how much of it is re-locked after its main plot events are past. At one end of the scale we have the TES games, where the world is almost completely open at any time, and games like ME3 on the other, where no content exists which isn't part of the main plot and most locations are only accessible once. 

 

DAI will fall somewhere in the middle, with a significant part of the world locked by the main plot at the start but with considerable freedom to do things apart from the main plot within the unlocked areas at any time after they've been unlocked. For me personally, this looks like a "best of both worlds" scenario. I like to have a good storyline which represents a significant part of the game, but I also like free exploration.

 

I can't be the only one who gets a "back to the roots, only better" vibe from this setup. The BG games were somewhat similar.

 

This is exactly what i'm hoping for. Exactly best of both worlds. If they did a "true" Open world we would have one big area, maybe with luck half of ferelden. now we are traveling all over ferelden and orlais. I really am excited at the prospect.

[Revan Reborn]

did you not watch the E3 demo? It showed Redcliffe Village before going to the castle I think that qualifies as a town since its also a returning one from Origins 

I thought about mentioning this previously. I'm under the impression the poster means much larger towns such as Denerim, Kirkwall, or Amaranthine. There certainly are more urban centers in the game than I believe BioWare has shown us.

 

No, they do not need to go open world. It is great the way its done now. (or as far as shown anyways) 

 

And if they do elder scrolls fanboys will be all over that complaining about how terrible it is and its a cheap rip off blah blah blah...

I'd probably count as an "elder scrolls fanboy" since they are my favorite developer. That being said, I'm also a huge fan of BioWare, and I don't believe the two necessarily mixed because they are opposite design philosophies. If you could mix the best of both worlds, everybody would ideally benefit.

 

I'm not much of a fan of open world RPGs, precisely BECAUSE they lack focus. I like a bit of liberty, don't get me wrong, but I don't mind a linear story. 

 

I think Bioware will have hit the sweet spot with DAI.

More than likely you'll be satisfied. Essentially DAI is just a larger DAO with respect to the various bigger zones. It's not really open world, but at the same time I question how effectively BioWare can handle much larger environments effectively.

 

It all comes down to how its implemented to be honest.    There is nothing inherently wrong with open world games.    I love TES games.   They build the best worlds BY FAR.   However, game resources are ultimately limited.    Their large open world comes at the significant cost of lack of story, characters with little to no depth, etc.

 

Bioware generally does just the opposite.   Focus on great story and characters at the cost of having a limited world to navigate.   

 

I always said, the best game of all time would be a TES world filled with Bioware characters and story.    Sadly, that is probably beyond the scope of what a developer could (or be allowed) to create.  

 

If Bioware has managed to take a couple steps toward a "TES-like" open world without sacrificing the quality of its characters and story, its going to be a good thing.

Mixing the best aspects of BGS and BioWare would be an incredible game. I think the only developer who is somewhat really tackling this more seriously currently would be CDPR with TW3. It's a seamless open world with some restrictions still in place for the sake of the story. TW series also has a long history of choice-driven storytelling, as CDPR has taken a lot of cues from BioWare.

 

I would prefer it to be more linear. I don't mind open-world games and a few games I like are open-world but not in every game though. I feel like being open-world just because is one of the current trends with some games at the moment.

I certainly believe "open world" is one of those phrases a lot of major games want to be associated with currently. Whether we are talking about Skyrim or GTA V, both vastly different but also outselling and outperforming any competition by a mile. I'm all for BioWare attempting to innovate and try new things. I'm just curious if they can actually fill a world that much larger in a way that makes sense.

[Revan Reborn]

There isn't the one and true open-world design. "Open-world-ness" is a sliding scale, proportional to how much of the world is locked by the main plot when the game starts, how piecemeal it is unlocked as you proceed through the story, and how much of it is re-locked after its main plot events are past. At one end of the scale we have the TES games, where the world is almost completely open at any time, and games like ME3 on the other, where no content exists which isn't part of the main plot and most locations are only accessible once. 

 

DAI will fall somewhere in the middle, with a significant part of the world locked by the main plot at the start but with considerable freedom to do things apart from the main plot within the unlocked areas at any time after they've been unlocked. For me personally, this looks like a "best of both worlds" scenario. I like to have a good storyline which represents a significant part of the game, but I also like free exploration.

 

I can't be the only one who gets a "back to the roots, only better" vibe from this setup. The BG games were somewhat similar.

I only disagree with this in the sense that going more open world isn't necessarily better, especially if you don't have a tradition of doing it. BioWare in modern times, since KotOR I, has made strictly linear experiences. We could argue ME1 was more open world due to Mako exploration, but that largely was a disappointment.

 

What will be the judge of DAI is not necessarily what we can initially do in these large zones, but rather if there will be a reason to return. The reason TES is so successful is because of the re-playability of their open world and the emergent game play. This is an approach few studios have been able to replicate, and it most frequently fails in MMORPGs.

 

I'm sure going through the Hinterlands the first time will be all fine and dandy. However, if it's nothing more than an SWTOR clone, in the sense I go through it once and never have a reason to return, we are just playing an over-bloated DAO at that point. If you are going to make your environment bigger, you need to do more than just add more quests and content to fill the space.

 

You need to make the world seem worth living in, rather than exploring it once and never coming back.

 

This is exactly what i'm hoping for. Exactly best of both worlds. If they did a "true" Open world we would have one big area, maybe with luck half of ferelden. now we are traveling all over ferelden and orlais. I really am excited at the prospect.

In that sense I guess you could make that argument. I personally wouldn't mind being confined to one country if it makes sense and the world is large, open, and has emergent game play. For me, at least, anytime I see barriers of any kind preventing me from going somewhere, that's always a disconnect and a immersion killer. DAI will thankfully be bigger than previous BioWare games, but again we'll see if it's actually better or not.

[Annarl]

i'm hoping for something akin to the witcher 2, with larger and more areas and not such a set structure for where you go.

 

I guess this would be the best compromise. Only larger, I would like the scale to much bigger.  Those zones were a too small.

 

I certainly don't want to see Bioware's storytelling suffer because they are trying to make an open world game.

[Revan Reborn]

I guess this would be the best compromise. Only larger, I would like the scale to much bigger.  Those zones were a too small.

 

I certainly don't want to see Bioware's storytelling suffer because they are trying to make an open world game.

It's a delicate balance. Considering BioWare is still new to Frostbite, I'm under the impression they'll continue to push what they do because they can build so much more now. Their own in-house engines could never support these large, detailed worlds. With Frostbite 3, it was already made because of DICE and BioWare just needs to add their own look and flare to the engine for their purposes.

[Lux]

I agree that this has a modern Baldur's Gate feel with open areas for exploration, but bigger, better, more beautiful.

 

Given the storyline and companions that BioWare can produce, the open areas will be more of an enhancement rather than detrimental to gameplay. And if you don't want to explore, just focus on the storyline.

[Sylentmana]

As long as I have a fair amount of places to poke my nose into, I'll be happy. What they are doing for DA:I seems to be making large open areas and not true open world. Its kind of like what Fable 2 and 3 did...except better.

[dlux]

I agree that this has a modern Baldur's Gate feel with open areas for exploration, but bigger, better, more beautiful.

Yep, it has a modern Baldur's Gate open world feeling to it from what I have seen, which is great. 

[viperidae]

In that sense I guess you could make that argument. I personally wouldn't mind being confined to one country if it makes sense and the world is large, open, and has emergent game play. For me, at least, anytime I see barriers of any kind preventing me from going somewhere, that's always a disconnect and a immersion killer. DAI will thankfully be bigger than previous BioWare games, but again we'll see if it's actually better or not.

 

Yeah i can agree with that. If it's something realistic like a freaking mountain in the way i'm good, but at least now that we have jumping they can't do the whole "small stream or log blocking a path" thing. The reason i am still excited is to be visiting many different kinds of places.

[Joe-Poe]

I love open world rpgs like skyrim....I just find them lacking in the story/character department. I would be all for a Bioware fully open world game like skyrim as long as they put the same amount of story and character in to it as they have with other games otherwise no.