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[Andraste Take the Wheel]

Meh. I believe in The Stone myself. 

[Drasanil]

Spoiler

 

Ha! You used an Ultramarine?

 

[Xilizhra]

The Old Gods can be killed with a sword.

Strangely, despite being allegedly dead, Dumat apparently responds to the proper prayers far more readily than the Maker.

 

Also, the Old Gods can only have their physical bodies killed with a sword; destroying one permanently (allegedly) requires a Grey Warden's soul to be set up as a trap, with a long and complicated process to actually make the Warden, and even that only works when the Old God is tainted by darkspawn to have become an archdemon.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Tell me where is your Maker now? Call him. Call down his wrath upon me. You cannot. For he does not exist.


 

[Keroko]

...Where did you even get that notion?

 

Converts to the Qun are repeatedly noted to be incredibly hard to convert back to the Andrastian faith, yet we see very few examples of qunari converting to Andrastian faith. Not even the Tal-Vashoth show much in the way of motivation to convert to the Chantry.

 

Heck, do we even have an example of a qunari converting to the Chantry?

[Master Warder Z_]

Converts to the Qun are repeatedly noted to be incredibly hard to convert back to the Andrastian faith

 

And that hasn't been much of an issue for what four centuries give or take in Thedas?

 

Point being, you indicating the Qun to overtake the worship of the Maker seems to be a flimsy leap based upon information gleamed during the aftermath of the Qunari wars.

 

The Qunari influence isn't what it was then, they have one settlement in the entirety of Thedas.

 

Outside of that, there is no presence period.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

The Qunari influence isn't what it was then, they have one settlement in the entirety of Thedas.

 

Outside of that, there is no presence period.

 

I'm not big fan of the Qun, but *cough* there are a Qunari's settlements in both Rivain and Anderfels *cough*

[Drasanil]

I'm not big fan of the Qun, but *cough* there are a Qunari's settlements in both Rivain and Anderfels *cough*

 

There cows in the Anderfels? I knew there some at the tip of Rivain because of the accords, but never heard of no Andercows 

[Keroko]

And that hasn't been much of an issue for what four centuries give or take in Thedas?

 

Point being, you indicating the Qun to overtake the worship of the Maker seems to be a flimsy leap based upon information gleamed during the aftermath of the Qunari wars.

 

The Qunari influence isn't what it was then, they have one settlement in the entirety of Thedas.

 

Outside of that, there is no presence period.

 

I did say slowly, didn't I? Religious shifts move in varying speeds. The qunari (mostly) honor their treaty and stay out of Thedas, which limits their conversion rate, but the moment even a small contingent of qunari landed in Kirkwall, the Chantry started pissing its pants because people started to convert. Right up to the viscount's son.

 

Yet, how many stories do we have of a qunari converting to the Andrastian faith?

 

The Chantry loses more people to the Qun than the Qun does to the Chantry.

[MisterJB]

Strangely, despite being allegedly dead, Dumat apparently responds to the proper prayers far more readily than the Maker.

 

Also, the Old Gods can only have their physical bodies killed with a sword; destroying one permanently (allegedly) requires a Grey Warden's soul to be set up as a trap, with a long and complicated process to actually make the Warden, and even that only works when the Old God is tainted by darkspawn to have become an archdemon.

 

1-Corypheus was absorbing mana from statues full of magic; it wasn't divine intervention.

 

2-Hawke is not praying to Dumat, he is just following the steps of a ritual. If Dumat was listening, that makes him a gullible god. And if the best he can send for profaning his altar is a couple of shades...

It's far more likely a magic-obssessed culture like Tevinter "programmed" the altar to react in certain way to certain actions.

 

3-If we accept that the Archdemons are the Old Gods, then we must also accept the Darkspawn were the result of invading the Golden City because it is the Chantry who makes both claims. Therefore, it follows that whatever ressurection abilities the Old Gods possess, they stem directly from a curse created by the Maker. So, even their powers would be a Maker-given gift.
 

[Master Warder Z_]

The Chantry loses more people to the Qun than the Qun does to the Chantry.

 

If this is anything like the Qunari wars?

 

It ultimately won't matter much.

 

There are a hell of a lot more Andrastians then there are Qunari.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

There cows in the Anderfels? I knew there some at the tip of Rivain because of the accords, but never heard of no Andercows 

 

Never mind it. I'm not even sure if Qundalon still exist since the settlement is located in northern Anderfels and likely before the First Blight even began. I guess that's where the Ogre come from. You Imperial may not like this, but the Qunari still have presence and influence on many parts of Thedas.

Spoiler

[Xilizhra]

1-Corypheus was absorbing mana from statues full of magic; it wasn't divine intervention.

Only applies to the flame jets.

 

 

2-Hawke is not praying to Dumat, he is just following the steps of a ritual. If Dumat was listening, that makes him a gullible god. And if the best he can send for profaning his altar is a couple of shades...

It's far more likely a magic-obssessed culture like Tevinter "programmed" the altar to react in certain way to certain actions.

That seems improbable, given that the highest magisters were themselves devout. Why program the altar you yourself were worshiping at?

 

 

3-If we accept that the Archdemons are the Old Gods, then we must also accept the Darkspawn were the result of invading the Golden City because it is the Chantry who makes both claims. Therefore, it follows that whatever ressurection abilities the Old Gods possess, they stem directly from a curse created by the Maker. So, even their powers would be a Maker-given gift.

Er, what? The Imperium made the connection between Dumat and the First Blight centuries before Andraste. And if the Maker did create the darkspawn curse, than he's a figure of horrendous evil who must be destroyed at all costs.

[X Equestris]

I did say slowly, didn't I? Religious shifts move in varying speeds. The qunari (mostly) honor their treaty and stay out of Thedas, which limits their conversion rate, but the moment even a small contingent of qunari landed in Kirkwall, the Chantry started pissing its pants because people started to convert. Right up to the viscount's son.
 
Yet, how many stories do we have of a qunari converting to the Andrastian faith?
 
The Chantry loses more people to the Qun than the Qun does to the Chantry.

The Rivaini Qunari's presence on the continent is a violation of that treaty. Plenty of people converted from the Qun when the Chantry and Tevinter began to roll back the tide, some voluntarily, some not. The only group in Kirkwall we see anything resembling large scale conversion to the Qun in is amongst the city elves, who occupy the bottom of society. The only people in the Chantry who were extremely concerned over the Qunari in Kirkwall were people like Petrice.

[X Equestris]

Never mind it. I'm not even sure if Qundalon still exist since the settlement is locate in northern Anderfels and likely before the First Blight even began. I guess that's where the Ogre come from. You Imperial may not like this, but the Qunari still have presence and influence on many parts of Thedas.

Spoiler

The ogres come from a Kossith colony in the Korcari Wilds that was overrun in the early stages of the First Blight.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

The ogres come from a Kossith colony in the Korcari Wilds that was overrun in the early stages of the First Blight.

Indeed, but it just my assumption that Qundalon fall during the First Blight and that settlement never survives till this day.

[Keroko]

If this is anything like the Qunari wars?

 

It ultimately won't matter much.

 

There are a hell of a lot more Andrastians then there are Qunari.

 

...Given that we have only seen the tip of the continent where the Qunari live, I find this an incredibly optimistic sentiment.

 

Mind you, the Qunari only agreed to stop fighting in the last war because the war was killing all their converted civilians. The third Exalted March ended, and I'm quoting the Llomeryn Accord codex entry here, "without even chipping the Qunari occupying force."

 

 

The Rivaini Qunari's presence on the continent is a violation of that treaty. Plenty of people converted from the Qun when the Chantry and Tevinter began to roll back the tide, some voluntarily, some not. The only group in Kirkwall we see anything resembling large scale conversion to the Qun in is amongst the city elves, who occupy the bottom of society. The only people in the Chantry who were extremely concerned over the Qunari in Kirkwall were people like Petrice.

 

You say plenty converted away from the Qun, but reading the codex entries on the Qunari wars says otherwise.

 

"The Qunari armies lacked the sheer numbers of humanity. So many were slain at Marnas Pell, on both sides, that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses. But each year, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines, although local converts to the Qun proved difficult to return to Andraste's teachings."

 

On elves, that's another thing the Chantry should strive to change: the treatment of elves as second-rank citizens. It accomplishes nothing and only leads to elves becoming easy converts for other faiths that promise a better life.

 

Quite a lot like how Andraste gained the aid of a slave army.

[Drasanil]

And if the Maker did create the darkspawn curse, than he's a figure of horrendous evil who must be destroyed at all costs.

 

If the Maker is real he's the ultimate arbiter of morality in Thedas and therefor can only be good. He would also be impossible to destroy. Omnipotence is funny like that. 

[Xilizhra]

If the Maker is real he's the ultimate arbiter of morality in Thedas and therefor can only be good. He would also be impossible to destroy. Omnipotence is funny like that. 

That's assuming that the Maker is both real and follows all of the Chantry's doctrine.

 

Not that we'll ever need to worry, because the Maker will never show up, so we may as well just say that the Maker doesn't exist, as no conclusive proof will ever be shown that he does.

[Icy Magebane]

Hm... while I support the Chantry both as an institution and a religion, I cannot deny that they have been involved in some shady behavior over the centuries.  However, no group that is run by mortal men is infallible, and they have done a great deal to benefit humanity as a whole.  Because their actions generally promote the common good, I'm willing to cut them some slack on a few of their more questionable policies... While I would be in favor of some reforms, I am not so naive that I think corruption can ever be fully eliminated from any powerful governing body.  So long as they continue to do more good than harm, I will give them the benefit of the doubt in most cases.  They haven't yet cross the line in my eyes, although they seem to be coming pretty close.

[X Equestris]

...Given that we have only seen the tip of the continent where the Qunari live, I find this an incredibly optimistic sentiment.
 
Mind you, the Qunari only agreed to stop fighting in the last war because the war was killing all their converted civilians. The third Exalted March ended, and I'm quoting the Llomeryn Accord codex entry here, "without even chipping the Qunari occupying force."
 
 

 
You say plenty converted away from the Qun, but reading the codex entries on the Qunari wars says otherwise.
 
"The Qunari armies lacked the sheer numbers of humanity. So many were slain at Marnas Pell, on both sides, that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses. But each year, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines, although local converts to the Qun proved difficult to return to Andraste's teachings."
 
On elves, that's another thing the Chantry should strive to change: the treatment of elves as second-rank citizens. It accomplishes nothing and only leads to elves becoming easy converts for other faiths that promise a better life.
 
Quite a lot like how Andraste gained the aid of a slave army.

There was initial difficulty in in converting them, but those efforts were ultimately successful, since the only place the Qunari really have any influence on the mainland is in Rivain.

Agreed about the elves. Unfortunately, discrimination against the elves has gone on all the way back to Ancient Tevinter. It won't be something that will be easy to change.

[Juneside]

I've always been under the notion that Andraste was a super badass mage who made up the whole notion of a maker to gain popularity and take down Tavinter.

 

That said i'm in full support for the current Chantry, you cant say that they don't do a lot of good. I mean they take in orphans (though they admittedly turn them to Templars or women of faith, that doesn't always happen as seen with some companions) and help the poor. I know a lot of people are against it from an anti-religious standpoint but if it brings peace of mind and sanctuary to a lot of people in Thedas I cant fault them. 

 

I also hold the current Templar order as separate from theChantry, though again not every Templar wants to shank a mage. (as seen with Ser Thrask)

 

All in all, they're a hell of a lot better than they could be and for a mass following of an entire continent, there will always be a few bad apples.

[The Baconer]

The great Templar Order and the holy Chantry must be one again, but some things have to change.

 

I agree.

 

Obviously there needs to be a tighter leash on the incompetent rabble.

[herkles]

here is something I been wondering about. 

 

Sebastian is a brother of the faith however I thought that women were the only gender that could join the priesthood of the Chantry. Or are there fraternal orders of monks for men? just curious about this.

[Master Warder Z_]

Mind you, the Qunari only agreed to stop fighting in the last war because the war was

Because their front had completely collapsed.

Their gamble in the free marches failed, the island their dreadnoughts launched from was captured. All the progress they had made into inland thedas was pushed back into Rivain.

One fortress was left to them at the time of the armistice.

The Qunari stopped fighting because they were losing.