1260 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

Did you just equate the Boston Tea Party with terror bombing civilian targets? 

 

If you didn't notice LOLandStuff did that, I'm glad he was jesting though. The whole point is being a revolutionary does not mean one is insane.

[Chari]

Eh, Lulupab, I was making fun of Anders. It was, eh, sarcasm

I definitely do not support his act of terror and killing hundrerds of civilians just because he dislikes churches and the chantry

[Lulupab]

Eh, Lulupab, I was making fun of Anders. It was, eh, sarcasm
I definitely do not support his act of terror and killing hundrerds of civilians just because he dislikes churches and the chantry

 
I don't support what he did, I said he doesn't need to die. I know sarcasm when I see it and I liked it.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If you didn't notice LOLandStuff did that, I'm glad he was jesting though. The whole point is being a revolutionary does not mean one is insane.

No. Targeting civilian buildings with bombs means you are insane.

[Lulupab]

No. Targeting civilian buildings with bombs means you are insane.

No it means you hate them. You need to look up the definition of insane.

[Chari]

No it means you hate them. You need to look up the definition of insane.

I'm pretty sure that if you hate defenseless civilians to the point of killing them in a massive explosion you're homicidally insane

[EmperorSahlertz]

No it means you hate them. You need to look up the definition of insane.

Insane; adjective
In a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior or social interaction; seriously mentally ill.

Anders fit perfectly into the first definition (unless of course you define normal perception, behavior and social interaction as blowing buildings up). He also fits perfectly into the second, but only on the rival path.

[Lulupab]

I'm pretty sure that if you hate defenseless civilians to the point of killing them in a massive explosion you're homicidally insane

Homicide does not necessarily mean insane because insane means seriously mentally ill and they are separated issues.

[Eudaemonium]

I'm pretty sure that if you hate defenseless civilians to the point of killing them in a massive explosion you're homicidally insane

 

Who were the civilians Anders blew up anyway? I never saw any civilians in DA2.  Is it from the 'killing 100s' retcon?

[Lulupab]

Insane; adjective
In a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior or social interaction; seriously mentally ill.
Anders fit perfectly into the first definition (unless of course you define normal perception, behavior and social interaction as blowing buildings up). He also fits perfectly into the second, but only on the rival path.

Anders doesn't question what he did was wrong. Insane is a state of mind that prevents normal behavior, Anders is not in that state, he is perfectly capable of seeing what he did was wrong and Justice is required of him for what he did. He wants to do that because he thinks the Chantry deserve it. He does not have a mentality problem, its who is.

[LOLandStuff]

If you didn't notice LOLandStuff did that, I'm glad he was jesting though. The whole point is being a revolutionary does not mean one is insane.

 

Way to throw the blame at me.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Who were the civilians Anders blew up anyway? I never saw any civilians in DA2.  Is it from the 'killing 100s' retcon?

Ever single Sister and Mother within the Chantry is a civillian. Most of the debri from the explosion of the Chantry building also rained down on Kirkwall, starting fires and probably killing dozens. All civillians most likely. Then add in the odd homeless or orphan housed in the Chantry and you can easily reach hundreds of dead civillians in Anders' little terror bombing adventure.

[Chari]

Who were the civilians Anders blew up anyway? I never saw any civilians in DA2.  Is it from the 'killing 100s' retcon?

People who were in the church, people who lived close to the church and got caught in the explosion 

And, yes, Vivienne saying that hundreds died is not a retcon, but rather a canon

[EmperorSahlertz]

Anders doesn't question what he did was wrong. Insane is a state of mind that prevents normal behavior, Anders is not in that state, he is perfectly capable of seeing what he did was wrong and Justice is required of him for what he did. He wants to do that because he thinks the Chantry deserve it. He does not have a mentality problem, its who is.

Except that the Rival path PROVES that he was actually incapable of NOT doing it. On the friendship path you simple enable his terror tendencies. But he is, in fact, quite insane.

[Lulupab]

Except that the Rival path PROVES that he was actually incapable of NOT doing it. On the friendship path you simple enable his terror tendencies. But he is, in fact, quite insane.

 

That can only be your opinion then and we have to agree to disagree. If you didn't notice I was clearly talking about friendship path. There is no sign of insanity because Anders as revolutionary plans to overthrow an organization that has tormented mages for a thousand years. He fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. What he understood is that it wasn't about right or wrong, it was about necessity . He believed that the system of imprisoning mages within Circles, under the watch of the Chantry's templars, was wrong, and would accept nothing less than overthrowing of that system. And with that, he understood that unless someone was willing to take drastic measures, then nothing ever would change. He knew that the templars would rise against mages everywhere for his action, and that therefore all the mages locked within Circle towers would be forced to rise up against the templars in order to save themselves. By his actions, no mages would be able to take, say, Wynne's position that the templars and Circles are necessary, except for those mages who hated their own magic and wanted to embrace imprisonment or even suicide. They would have to either submit to templar tyranny, or fight to save their own lives.

 

Friendship Anders has no mental problems, many real life murderers don't have any such problems as well, Vengeance is quite a strong motivator and completely eliminates any need for mental illness to do something extreme because for the truly wronged satisfaction can only come from pure forgiveness or absolute Vengeance. Anders chose the latter.

[Chari]

Anders doesn't question what he did was wrong. Insane is a state of mind that prevents normal behavior, Anders is not in that state, he is perfectly capable of seeing what he did was wrong and Justice is required of him for what he did. He wants to do that because he thinks the Chantry deserve it. He does not have a mentality problem, its who is.

Remember that insane dude from DA2 who kidnapped and killed elven kids? Well, he was insane that's the fact. He understood that what he was doing was wrong but couldn't stop himself, he even asked us to kill him to prevent him from being dangerous

This whole "if one realises they're doing sth wrong it means they're sane and mentally healthy" is bullshit. I've been to a mental house, I've seen a lot of ill people and let's just say, that just because one realises he/she is doing sth wrong, sth crazy, it doesn't make him/her actually less mentally ill

Anders suffers from depression, anxiety, paranoia, even split personality disorder of sort etc. He is not mentally healthy. That's tragic. But when he crosses every moral border by blowing up a building full of civilians. Now that's just insane

[EmperorSahlertz]

That can only be your opinion then and we have to agree to disagree. If you didn't notice I was clearly talking about friendship path. There is no sign of insanity because Anders as revolutionary plans to overthrow an organization that has tormented mages for a thousand years. He fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. What he understood is that it wasn't about right or wrong, it was about necessity . He believed that the system of imprisoning mages within Circles, under the watch of the Chantry's templars, was wrong, and would accept nothing less than overthrowing of that system. And with that, he understood that unless someone was willing to take drastic measures, then nothing ever would change. He knew that the templars would rise against mages everywhere for his action, and that therefore all the mages locked within Circle towers would be forced to rise up against the templars in order to save themselves. By his actions, no mages would be able to take, say, Wynne's position that the templars and Circles are necessary, except for those mages who hated their own magic and wanted to embrace imprisonment or even suicide. They would have to either submit to templar tyranny, or fight to save their own lives.

 

Friendship Anders has no mental problems, many real life murderers don't have any such problems as well, Vengeance is quite a strong motivator and completely eliminates any need for mental illness to do something extreme because for the truly wronged satisfaction can only come from pure forgiveness or absolute Vengeance. Anders chose the latter.

And be that as it may, my opinion is actually based on empirical evidence, whereas yours is based on the fact you agree with Anders' end goal. You look at the friendship path in a vacuum, and that warps your perception. Sadly if you actually look at the character Anders, you see that he is indeed FORCED to do what he does, by impulses from Vengeance. However, he does not realize this himself on the friendship path, because Hawke is too busy enabling his mentally ill friend, to actually realize something is wrong. On the rivalry path, it however dawns on Anders that he does in fact not want to do it, yet he is forced to do so by Vengeance.

And Vengeance IS a mental problem of the highest order.

[LOLandStuff]

It's ok to love insane people, nobody's judging you. But ignoring their insanity because you can't deal with it is rather...let's just say strange.

[Dermain]

No it means you hate them. You need to look up the definition of insane.

 

It depends on your definition. If you use the one provided by ES then you are definitely insane.

 

If you use the one by Einstein, Einstein may be a genius in the realm of physics however he is not in the realm of defining words.

 

If you are using the one defined by the American legal system I again have to ask, why are you using horrible definitions?

 

I'll also add in that most respectable clinical psychology textbooks make no mention of the word "insane". It is a term used by the general public.

 

Insane; adjective
In a state of mind that prevents normal perception, behavior or social interaction; seriously mentally ill.

Anders fit perfectly into the first definition (unless of course you define normal perception, behavior and social interaction as blowing buildings up). He also fits perfectly into the second, but only on the rival path.

 

He's also possessed, and no longer has full control of any of his facilities.

 

That can only be your opinion then and we have to agree to disagree. If you didn't notice I was clearly talking about friendship path. There is no sign of insanity because Anders as revolutionary plans to overthrow an organization that has tormented mages for a thousand years. He fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. What he understood is that it wasn't about right or wrong, it was about necessity . He believed that the system of imprisoning mages within Circles, under the watch of the Chantry's templars, was wrong, and would accept nothing less than overthrowing of that system. And with that, he understood that unless someone was willing to take drastic measures, then nothing ever would change. He knew that the templars would rise against mages everywhere for his action, and that therefore all the mages locked within Circle towers would be forced to rise up against the templars in order to save themselves. By his actions, no mages would be able to take, say, Wynne's position that the templars and Circles are necessary, except for those mages who hated their own magic and wanted to embrace imprisonment or even suicide. They would have to either submit to templar tyranny, or fight to save their own lives.

 

Friendship Anders has no mental problems, many real life murderers don't have any such problems as well, Vengeance is quite a strong motivator and completely eliminates any need for mental illness to do something extreme because for the truly wronged satisfaction can only come from pure forgiveness or absolute Vengeance. Anders chose the latter.

 

Yes they do...

 

The very act of even contemplating murdering someone, not to mention possibly torturing them before killing them, kind of indicates that there is something wrong in a person's brain. The American legal system defines insanity as "Not knowing the difference between right and wrong" when the perpetrator was performing the crime. It is one of the hardest defenses to prove because if the perpetrator tries to hide any evidence of the crime then it shows that they knew the difference between right and wrong. That is the only reason the vast majority of murders are found to not be insane by a jury.

 

Vengeance is never an acceptable reason for murder.

 

Remember that insane dude from DA2 who kidnapped and killed elven kids? Well, he was insane that's the fact. He understood that what he was doing was wrong but couldn't stop himself, he even asked us to kill him to prevent him from being dangerous

This whole "if one realises they're doing sth wrong it means they're sane and mentally healthy" is bullshit. I've been to a mental house, I've seen a lot of ill people and let's just say, that just because one realises he/she is doing sth wrong, sth crazy, it doesn't make him/her actually less mentally ill

Anders suffers from depression, anxiety, paranoia, even split personality disorder of sort etc. He is not mentally healthy. That's tragic. But when he crosses every moral border by blowing up a building full of civilians. Now that's just insane 

 

As mentioned before, that's the American legal systems definition of insanity. It's completely silly, but it does stop people from using it unless they are really suffering from a clear break from reality.

 

Ander's suffers from depression and possibly anxiety. I question paranoia simply because as a mage he has to be paranoid, but I will add that he does go too far.

 

Having a split personality is a different issue entirely, mostly because we do not know how exactly possession works in Thedas. At times we see that Justice is able to appear on his own, and he definitely has a separate personality (at least at the beginning of the game). By the end of the game we either get "I had no choice, he made me do it" or "We are one now, there is no separation" which makes it hard to really determine the state actual state of his personality.

 

Getting back to the serial killer he is more of a media interpretation of schizophrenia, and it's interesting to see that at least that disorder is present in Thedas without the influence of spirits/demons.

[Chari]

Having a split personality is a different issue entirely, mostly because we do not know how exactly possession works in Thedas. At times we see that Justice is able to appear on his own, and he definitely has a separate personality (at least at the beginning of the game). By the end of the game we either get "I had no choice, he made me do it" or "We are one now, there is no separation" which makes it hard to really determine the state actual state of his personality.

 

Well, that's why I siad he "kind of" does

It's not psychological split personality disorder, but a literal case of two minds, two personalities in one body

[Sports72Xtrm]

No. Targeting civilian buildings with bombs means you are insane.

That makes the Americans who bombed hiroshima insane. That makes every military who issued a drone strike or launched a mortar strike with a civilian population insane. Human kind in general are insane.

[Sports72Xtrm]

It depends on your definition. If you use the one provided by ES then you are definitely insane.

 

If you use the one by Einstein, Einstein may be a genius in the realm of physics however he is not in the realm of defining words.

 

If you are using the one defined by the American legal system I again have to ask, why are you using horrible definitions?

 

I'll also add in that most respectable clinical psychology textbooks make no mention of the word "insane". It is a term used by the general public.

 

 

He's also possessed, and no longer has full control of any of his facilities.

 

 

Yes they do...

 

The very act of even contemplating murdering someone, not to mention possibly torturing them before killing them, kind of indicates that there is something wrong in a person's brain. The American legal system defines insanity as "Not knowing the difference between right and wrong" when the perpetrator was performing the crime. It is one of the hardest defenses to prove because if the perpetrator tries to hide any evidence of the crime then it shows that they knew the difference between right and wrong. That is the only reason the vast majority of murders are found to not be insane by a jury.

 

Vengeance is never an acceptable reason for murder.

 

 

As mentioned before, that's the American legal systems definition of insanity. It's completely silly, but it does stop people from using it unless they are really suffering from a clear break from reality.

 

Ander's suffers from depression and possibly anxiety. I question paranoia simply because as a mage he has to be paranoid, but I will add that he does go too far.

 

Having a split personality is a different issue entirely, mostly because we do not know how exactly possession works in Thedas. At times we see that Justice is able to appear on his own, and he definitely has a separate personality (at least at the beginning of the game). By the end of the game we either get "I had no choice, he made me do it" or "We are one now, there is no separation" which makes it hard to really determine the state actual state of his personality.

 

Getting back to the serial killer he is more of a media interpretation of schizophrenia, and it's interesting to see that at least that disorder is present in Thedas without the influence of spirits/demons.

Anders does has control of his facilities. For example,  if Hawke romances Anders, "Justice" may disapprove but he won't interfere. What changes are his values and his compulsion to act on it. the compulsion to act and right wrongs he interprets. But we all have these compulsions, humans however just find other things to procrastinate or give up on them when when accomplishing them becomes too inconvenient. For anders, he is compelled to follow through with it. He is after all, intertwined with the spirit of justice and as he claims, he is "the cause of mages." He cannot pick and chooses what parts of Justice he likes, Justice's entire identity is the search of what is just and so that must be what anders must be as well. He cannot ignore the injustice of the circle, mages being treated like criminals while mundanes have mudane priveledge (i.e., like white priviledge but for non-mages), the lobotomization of mages and the threats of violence to force them to comply. Did Anders almost kill ella? Yes, just like Fenris "almost (or can)" kills his sister. In a fit of passion. Yet if Hawke has enough influence, Anders is able to reign himself in just like any other overly emotional being.

 

Now if we define insanity by  "Not knowing the difference between right and wrong" when the perpetrator was performing the crime, then all of society is guilty of that by perpetuating the Circle system. The systematic hunt and oppression of a discriminated sect for thousands of years some would say is wrong and evil. Though what is right and wrong is subjective to each individual's values. So this is a vague definition of insanity or perhaps not a very apt one. Anders or Justice did not orchestrate the chantry bombing out of any cruelty or malice, he did it as he said "to change the world". He wanted to provoke the templars into orchestrating the rite of annulment so that the mages would be forced to fight for their independence. It was an act of terrorism with political aims and objectives, things every nation, every clandestine spy or military agency is guilty of to try and tip an advantage to their favor in our history.

[Br3admax]

That makes the Americans who bombed hiroshima insane. That makes every military who issued a drone strike or launched a mortar strike with a civilian population insane. Human kind in general are insane.

Let's pretend we all actually agreed with any of these bombings. Realise that bombings of civilians is illegal less. That war actually has rules that we must all follow if we take up arms? Yes? 

[Br3admax]

 You mean it splashed into his mouth right? Vengeance is satisfied when he sees the blood of his enemies and ofc it tastes like honey. Its not just any blood, its Templar blood. Yummy.

I'm not the only one who read this and had to go sit somewhere and think about where humanity is going for a few hours, am I? 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Let's pretend we all actually agreed with any of these bombings. Realise that bombings of civilians is illegal less. That war actually has rules that we must all follow if we take up arms? Yes? 

Rules are just social contracts we tell each other to placate each other into a an existence of civility. But as I said in an earlier post:

 

 

Didn't work for the Circle in Kirkwall. Ideals are peaceful, but history is violent. In a quote from an anime I particaularly like...

"What does it take to end a war?

Well, if both sides wish for peace and set aside their hatred…
No. Warfare is nothing but a means of negotiation between states.
Wars break out even when there is no hatred.
Territory, resources, or interests that you are determined to own.
Ideology, religion, pride.
Wars are fought over those objectives all the time.
Meaning that when those objectives are met, the war will end.
That, or the war will end when the human cost outweighs the gains.
Anger and hatred are only tools to tilt a war in your favor."

The reason why racism and things change is that. Humanity is a stubborn, greedy, cruel, and petty creature. And I suspect the mage-templar war will only end when one side decides they've had enough.

 

If I felt that I had the short end of the negotiation then no amount of social pressure will compel me to follow those rules unless you beat me into submission. I believe this is the truth of the matter, not some pretentious political correctness told to placate you.