1260 réponses à ce sujet

[Milan92]

That makes him good, right?

 

As much as I disliked the clan, I didn't think they deserved that.

[Sable Rhapsody]

But its not a permanent part of Justice, he only comes out when Anders has lost all control over himself likely cause of anger. Normally he is the Justice we know from Awakening, able to express himself through Anders and this is further proved in the fade, that's pure Justice in the fade, Vengeance doesn't exist because Anders is not in default control therefore he cannot lose himself and warp Justice into Vengeance with his anger. It has its good and the bad and is neither as an absolute therefore its grey.

 

Mmm...I wouldn't necessarily take Anders' word for this.  They're not two separate entities, him and Justice/Vengeance.  They're one being, and spirit possession is not well understood outside Tevinter since the default approach is just "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!"  I'll bet he doesn't even know exactly how he and Justice interact as a being.  I'm not saying Anders is deliberately lying or anything, I just don't think anyone can say for sure which part is Anders and which part is Justice/Vengeance.

 

Also, the Justice we know from Awakening was horrified at the idea of possessing a living host.  By DA2...clearly not so much.

[Hellion Rex]

I didn't use "bad" or "good". Justice is still fundamentally a spirit, I'm not talking about morality issues here.

The point is that they're all spirits, so you calling Justice a spirit doesn't mean much. Imshael is a spirit. Gaxkang was a spirit. Xebenkeck was a spirit.

[Lulupab]

You're evading the question. Just because Torpor called Justice a spirit, it doesn't automatically make him one since even one of the Forbidden Ones called itself a spirit before deciding to purge an entire clan.

I answered this, you didn't see it.

Justice we know of is not any different than any other spirits of Justice, if you want to call all of them demons then fine, I couldn't care less. It was revealed in an interview that spirits of Justice will do EVERYTHING in their power to uphold their name and Justice to them is a quite different approach. its like "the guilty must die now, no questions asked no strings attached".

Spirits do not really fit well in the waking world, if a spirit thinks all Templars are guilty no one can change its mind because spirits are all about absolutes, you are either guilty or you are not, there is no middle ground in the eyes of spirits of Justice. There is no reason for calling Justice a demon when he is simply existing the way he was meant to be. He is the first creation of maker and by very definition he is an angel, have you seen how many movies and TV series include Angers who are not as holy as you think they would? Fundamentally Justice is still a spirit, but his ideals doesn't match the waking world.

[Lulupab]

The point is that they're all spirits, so you calling Justice a spirit doesn't mean much. Imshael is a spirit. Gaxkang was a spirit. Xebenkeck was a spirit.

If you claim what I already said which is all spirits of Justice are like that then yes. They will do anything to uphold their name and their idea of Justice is quite different than the one in the waking world.

[whanzephruseke]

DA: Awakenings Anders would never have blown up a chantry, claiming the lives of hundreds of people, and putting the mages in even greater danger than they were in before.

 

If what you mean is that Awakening Anders would not have had the balls to go through with it without Justice, then I agree with you in that regard, but the potential was always there.

 

I agree with him not being sane if he survives, considering the injustices both sides are inflicting during the war. He would be in constant Avatander State. 

 

I think I love you.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Does it really matter if Justice was or is a demon or not?

 

He along with Anders murdered hundreds of innocent people for a nonsensically reason that only doomed the people they were trying to save in the first place. When it comes to him being either a spirit or demon, who honestly cares. Regardless, that spirit/demon/whatever is a mass murderer, and chances are their going to be hunted down and executed by just about every faction in Inquisition for their crime if they survive in your game. 

[Sports72Xtrm]

Does it really matter if Justice was or is a demon or not?

 

He along with Anders murdered hundreds of innocent people for a nonsensically reason that only doomed the people they were trying to save in the first place. When it comes to him being either a spirit or demon, who honestly cares. Regardless, that spirit/demon/whatever is a mass murderer, and chances are their going to be hunted down and executed by just about every faction in Inquisition for their crime if they survive in your game. 

History is written by the victors. If the inquisition sides with the rebel mages, Anders will either be remembered as the martyr for their revolution at best or the "boom" heard around the world at least. What too soon? At anycase, I'm sure Varric's books about the Champion's interactions with him will allow mages and non-mages alike to decide for themselves.

[Zarro-Morningstar]

I hope Anders is in Inquisition, not because I want to kill him...like I saw some people post, lol! I loved his character in DA:A and while he did change..I mean Justice/Vengeance pretty much took over or at least brought out his more radical side, I still like and enjoy his character. I can understand how/why people would feel betrayed by him, but I personally saw that outcome coming way back in Act II. Besides I want to see if my Hawke was able to level him out, that would be really cool to see. Long story short I simply want to see Anders as a changed mage/man or at least more in control. So I think I added my little tidbit, thanks for reading my little rambles!    

[AresKeith]

History is written by the victors. If the inquisition sides with the rebel mages, Anders will either be remembered as the martyr for their revolution at best or the "boom" heard around the world at least. What too soon? At anycase, I'm sure Varric's books about the Champion's interactions with him will allow mages and non-mages alike to decide for themselves.

 

That wasn't even the case in Asunder

[enson8502]

My female mage Hawke agreed with Ander's actions and they stayed in loved until the end of times. I hope in inquisition they'll be together and have a baby (ok... I know... It's a little too much...) but that's my dream ok!!! lol

[Sports72Xtrm]

That wasn't even the case in Asunder

can't exactly high five about the chantry church blowing up in Kirkwall when the Circles were still being supervised by the templars and Chantry and the White Tower was in lock down due to ghost of the White Spire. Political correctness was paramount to placate the already paranoid mundanes. But I do seem to recall the Circles calling for a vote of secession more than once due to the outrage of an annulment caused by an apostate. I'm sure the Resolutionists and the Libertarians were happy about it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

"Good"
"Bad"

None of this absolutes apply to ANYONE in Dragon Age because dragon age by very definition of its genre is a made based on grey morality. I'm sorry you didn't realize this.

Pretty sure The Elder One or the Archdemons can be considered as solidly "bad". 

 

 

I think I love you.

Glad you like it. Whenever I saw him glow blue, I immediately think that.

[Xilizhra]

Does it really matter if Justice was or is a demon or not?

 

He along with Anders murdered hundreds of innocent people for a nonsensically reason that only doomed the people they were trying to save in the first place. When it comes to him being either a spirit or demon, who honestly cares. Regardless, that spirit/demon/whatever is a mass murderer, and chances are their going to be hunted down and executed by just about every faction in Inquisition for their crime if they survive in your game. 

Hunted, sure. Executed? I recommend not counting on it.

 

 

Pretty sure The Elder One or the Archdemons can be considered as solidly "bad". 

The archdemons are ghouls, thus taint-maddened. I don't know if they could be truly considered evil.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Hunted, sure. Executed? I recommend not counting on it.

 

 

The archdemons are ghouls, thus taint-maddened. I don't know if they could be truly considered evil.

 

1. Really? I know that he might not appear in Inquisition but if he were to do you actually believe that he won't be executed for murdering hundreds of people. I know that the Warden and Hawke can get away with some terrible acts of murder, but from my knowledge they were never able to outright kill defenseless civilians in such quantity like Anders. 

 

2. The Archdemons seemingly just want to kill all life on Thedas. You can't negotiate, bargain, debate or even seriously talk with them. They just want to see everything that's not darkspawn die. They're omnicidal monsters, and if that isn't flat Evil with a capital E then nothing is. 

[Xilizhra]

1. Really? I know that he might not appear in Inquisition but if he were to do you actually believe that he won't be executed for murdering hundreds of people. I know that the Warden and Hawke can get away with some terrible acts of murder, but from my knowledge they were never able to outright kill defenseless civilians in such quantity like Anders.

To be executed, you have to be caught.

 

 

2. The Archdemons seemingly just want to kill all life on Thedas. You can't negotiate, bargain, debate or even seriously talk with them. They just want to see everything that's not darkspawn die. They're omnicidal monsters, and if that isn't flat Evil with a capital E then nothing is. 

In my opinion, you can't be evil if you don't have the choice to not be, and archdemons don't have that choice. They're fundamentally driven to cause destruction, they don't choose it.

[Br3admax]

Source? 

[ComedicSociopathy]

To be executed, you have to be caught.

 

Do you think that Anders would stay low in the middle of the mage rebellion he always wanted? With Justice around in his head I would think he'd be complled to be on the front-lines doing whatever he can for his fellow mages. Heck, he probably wants to die a martyr of the battlefield since Hawke wouldn't kill him. 

 

 

In my opinion, you can't be evil if you don't have the choice to not be, and archdemons don't have that choice. They're fundamentally driven to cause destruction, they don't choose it.

 

Where does it that the Archdemon doesn't have a choice in causing destruction and death? Yes, the darkspawn taint them but it is the Archdemon that controls the horde and it makes the decision to invade the surface. 

 

The DA wiki even outright states their pure evil.    http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Archdemon

[whanzephruseke]

Where does it that the Archdemon doesn't have a choice in causing destruction and death? Yes, the darkspawn taint them but it is the Archdemon that controls the horde and it makes the decision to invade the surface. 

 

The DA wiki even outright states their pure evil.    http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Archdemon

 

1) The wiki is made by fans, so I hesitate to trust such an assertion unless a lore or word-of-God citation is given.

 

2) I will not be surprised if we learn in Inquisiton that everything we thought we knew about the Blights and Thedosian cosmology was wrong; in fact, I will be kind of disappointed if we don't.

[Lulupab]

Pretty sure The Elder One or the Archdemons can be considered as solidly "bad". 

Pretty sure I said "anyone" meaning people. They are not people.

[LightningPoodle]

I've just completed DA2 again. Anders has successfully taken a dagger to the back.

[LightningPoodle]

Double post... my first one 

[Lulupab]

That wasn't even the case in Asunder

can't exactly high five about the chantry church blowing up in Kirkwall when the Circles were still being supervised by the templars and Chantry and the White Tower was in lock down due to ghost of the White Spire. Political correctness was paramount to placate the already paranoid mundanes. But I do seem to recall the Circles calling for a vote of secession more than once due to the outrage of an annulment caused by an apostate. I'm sure the Resolutionists and the Libertarians were happy about it.

In this, Anders was a tragic figure, taking it upon himself to be the reviled murderer so that other people would have the freedom to condemn his actions. Like it or not, that is a very realistic, real-world scenario. For every Martin Luther King or Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi you see in the world, there are people with blood on their hands who give these leaders and rest of the world the opportunity to take the moral high road. Their actions ARE despicable, but that doesn't make them any less necessary. Fiona can take the moral high ground and lead mages because of actions of Anders and Adrian and similar people. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous freedom fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I answered this, you didn't see it.

Justice we know of is not any different than any other spirits of Justice, if you want to call all of them demons then fine, I couldn't care less. It was revealed in an interview that spirits of Justice will do EVERYTHING in their power to uphold their name and Justice to them is a quite different approach. its like "the guilty must die now, no questions asked no strings attached".

Spirits do not really fit well in the waking world, if a spirit thinks all Templars are guilty no one can change its mind because spirits are all about absolutes, you are either guilty or you are not, there is no middle ground in the eyes of spirits of Justice. There is no reason for calling Justice a demon when he is simply existing the way he was meant to be. He is the first creation of maker and by very definition he is an angel, have you seen how many movies and TV series include Angers who are not as holy as you think they would? Fundamentally Justice is still a spirit, but his ideals doesn't match the waking world.

Except that we know that Vengeance is NOT just like any other spirit of Justice, since it merged with Anders, which changed it fundamentally. It is now motivated by vestiges of Anders' personality, which warped its sense of justice from objectivity into something strongly subjective.

 

Justice is an objective term. Vengeance is subjective.

 

All entities from the Fade are spirits. Demons are also spirits, they are just spirits which act on selfish desires, just like Vengeance.

[Lulupab]

Except that we know that Vengeance is NOT just like any other spirit of Justice, since it merged with Anders, which changed it fundamentally. It is now motivated by vestiges of Anders' personality, which warped its sense of justice from objectivity into something strongly subjective.
 
Justice is an objective term. Vengeance is subjective.
 
All entities from the Fade are spirits. Demons are also spirits, they are just spirits which act on selfish desires, just like Vengeance.

Justice thinks every single Templar is guilty in Awakening as well. You need to deal with the fact that mages face injustice an Justice recognizes it. Also Justice gains NOTHING from fighting Templars unlike demons who want to have more power, make more abominations, rule etc... Justice is selfless by very definition.