1260 réponses à ce sujet

[Magdalena11]

The point is that they're all spirits, so you calling Justice a spirit doesn't mean much. Imshael is a spirit. Gaxkang was a spirit. Xebenkeck was a spirit.

It sounds like there are spirits that don't fit very well into the categories of good and evil.  We haven't met many good spirits, other than Valor and Faith.  Justice as a concept is good, but when it gets turned over to frail humans it can get warped and motivate horrible acts of Vengeance.  A different, but similar, transformation could happen if Hope was turned into Expectation.  Hope would allow someone to continue despite overwhelming challenges, and Expectation might trample over everyone in its path to get its due.

 

I wonder which side of Justice we'd see if the spirit returned (I hope Anders doesn't - he's been through enough.)  Justice in the fade was pure, and in Kristoff's body was corrupted only by remembered emotion.  We all saw what happened to it when it tried existing in a human mind.  I hope Anders didn't ruin Justice the way Justice ruined Anders.

[Br3admax]

1) The wiki is made by fans, so I hesitate to trust such an assertion unless a lore or word-of-God citation is given.

 

2) I will not be surprised if we learn in Inquisiton that everything we thought we knew about the Blights and Thedosian cosmology was wrong; in fact, I will be kind of disappointed if we don't.

Nothing suggests archdemons are forced to attack Thedas. That was something Xil just made up to justify why killing them is wrong. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Justice thinks every single Templar is guilty in Awakening as well. You need to deal with the fact that mages face injustice an Justice recognizes it. Also Justice gains NOTHING from fighting Templars unlike demons who want to have more power, make more abominations, rule etc... Justice is selfless by very definition.

No he doesn't. Justice hears about Anders' story and offers his opinion on the matter. He doesn't have the whole story, and certainly not the details. Justice merely offers his opinion that Anders should fight for what he thinks is right.

 

On the other hand Justice does offer insight as to the nature of demons. Spirits that have been warped by their desires.  Just. Like. Vengeance.

[TheTurtle]

Nothing suggests archdemons are forced to attack Thedas. That was something Xil just made up to justify why killing them is wrong.

Killing anyone except Templars is wrong and you're probably an evil jerk who has messed up morals.

[Applepie_Svk]

Killing anyone except Templars is wrong and you're probably an evil jerk who has messed up morals.

 

haha, messed up morals right at start of own argument...

[Br3admax]

Killing anyone except Templars is wrong and you're probably an evil jerk who has messed up morals.

I noes. Im srry. 

[Nharia1]

Killing anyone except Templars is wrong and you're probably an evil jerk who has messed up morals.

I fail to see how killing an Archdemon means one has messed up morals. It seems to me that an Archdemon is something like a rabid dog that needs to be put down before it can harm a lot of people....

The same could be said to apply to Anders and Justice/Vengeance.

[TheTurtle]

I fail to see how killing an Archdemon means one has messed up morals. It seems to me that an Archdemon is something like a rabid dog that needs to be put down before it can harm a lot of people....
The same could be said to apply to Anders and Justice/Vengeance.

sarcasm friend.

[Nharia1]

sarcasm friend.

One can never tell with the internet.

unless there are smileys.

[TheTurtle]

One can never tell with the internet.
unless there are smileys.

Done.

[Nharia1]

Done.

much better. xD

You know.. I'm surprised I've not been jumped by the Anders fanatics yet.

[Lulupab]

No he doesn't. Justice hears about Anders' story and offers his opinion on the matter. He doesn't have the whole story, and certainly not the details. Justice merely offers his opinion that Anders should fight for what he thinks is right.
 
On the other hand Justice does offer insight as to the nature of demons. Spirits that have been warped by their desires.  Just. Like. Vengeance.

Calling it "desire" so openly and clearly shows how much this is your opinion and a biased one at that. Justice does not offer his opinion, he casts a judgement and he announces Templar oppression must stop. He is against a cat remaining in a bag, what do you think he feels about mages? Also Vengeance is a temporary form Justice takes when Anders have lost all control over himself. In other times its the same Justice, able to express himself through Anders, the fade encounter further proves this. Its pure Justice, Vengeance doesn't exist because Anders' anger doesn't exist to warp Justice in the fade as he is not in default control anymore.

Furthermore Justice talks about taking revenge a few times in Awakening like when entering woods and seeing the dead bodies. His exact words: "These people must be avenged." Comparing his conversations in awakening and the ones in DA2, its exactly the justice we know from Awakening. His warping into Vengeance is always temporary.

much better. xD
You know.. I'm surprised I've not been jumped by the Anders fanatics yet.

Your bait was spotted miles away, fanatic or no. Nice b8 m8 I r8 8/10.

[Xilizhra]

Do you think that Anders would stay low in the middle of the mage rebellion he always wanted? With Justice around in his head I would think he'd be complled to be on the front-lines doing whatever he can for his fellow mages. Heck, he probably wants to die a martyr of the battlefield since Hawke wouldn't kill him. 

Who says Anders would lose any of those battles to the point of being captured?

[Nharia1]

-snips-

Your bait was spotted miles away, fanatic or no. Nice b8 m8 I r8 8/10.

actually it wasnt bait, but if you chose to see it as such, that's your own prerogative.

[l7986]

Anders won't be in Inquisition for me because he'll be dead. On the off chance I decide to let him live, I seriously doubt he's going to be losing any sleep over bombing the Chantry and sparking a massive war.

[Lulupab]

actually it wasnt bait, but if you chose to see it as such, that's your own prerogative.

Comparing Archdemon to Anders can be only two things, either you are baiting or... you have no idea what are on about. The former is better for your own sake because its simply playful trolling and doesn't question your intelligence.

Tell me of Archdemon's romantic adventures and feelings. Tell me how good of a healer it was and how many people it saved without thought for material gain. I can go on.

Keyword: It

[Nharia1]

Comparing Archdemon to Anders can be only two things, either you are baiting or... you have no idea what are on about. The former is better for your own sake because its simply playful trolling and doesn't question your intelligence.

Tell me of Archdemon's romantic adventures and feelings. Tell me how good of a healer it was and how many people it saved without thought for material gain. I can go on.

Keyword: It

Perhaps equating him to an Archdemon is a bit of a stretch, but the principle is the same. If one thing, or person in this case, is able to bring down an established collection of peoples, by doing something as monumentally stupid as what he did, means he has lost all sense of reality and needs to be dealt with in the most efficient manner.

Just because he had feelings of empathy, doesn't mean he can retain those once Justice/Vengeance takes over. He pretty much admits to not being able to control his actions once the other side takes over.

[LOLandStuff]

I smell persecution...oh wait, it's just paranoia.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Perhaps equating him to an Archdemon is a bit of a stretch, but the principle is the same. If one thing, or person in this case, is able to bring down an established collection of peoples, by doing something as monumentally stupid as what he did, means he has lost all sense of reality and needs to be dealt with in the most efficient manner.

Just because he had feelings of empathy, doesn't mean he can retain those once Justice/Vengeance takes over. He pretty much admits to not being able to control his actions once the other side takes over.

It doesn't take an abomination to do what anders did. The Resolutionists have been planning terrorists actions against the Chantry in order to promote conflict and force the mages' hand to rebel for a while now. If it wasn't anders it would have been some other terrorist mage that would have given the mundanes their justification for their annulments and oppression.

 

Also let me remind people not to make judgments on users. This thread is about anders, and anything not constructive to that discussion is trolling.

[Lulupab]

Perhaps equating him to an Archdemon is a bit of a stretch, but the principle is the same. If one thing, or person in this case, is able to bring down an established collection of peoples, by doing something as monumentally stupid as what he did, means he has lost all sense of reality and needs to be dealt with in the most efficient manner.
Just because he had feelings of empathy, doesn't mean he can retain those once Justice/Vengeance takes over. He pretty much admits to not being able to control his actions once the other side takes over.

This thread is not really about morality of what Anders did, but the goal and his appearance in DA:I. I fully acknowledge what he did was murder, do not doubt it but he was not the only companion who did such a thing. We had a pirate who almost burned a whole city for her selfishness, an assassin who killed because he liked it etc...

The point, in any event, is that violent, murderous revolutionaries play JUST as much a role in bringing about positive changes to injustice as anyone else. Whether you like it or not, that's a fact of history. And one of the biggest ways they do it is exactly as did Anders: by giving reasonable people cause to step back and say "Hey, templars, you can't rise up and slaughter all the mages of every Circle in Thedas for the actions of one lone fanatic," which can quickly lead to "Hey, maybe part of the problem is that mages are being forced into desperate situations. We should rectify this." That's right, he has dealt with situation of the mages in the most efficient manner possible. Its abhorrent but he made it the change come as quickly as possible. I don't think Archdemon has such personality to be taking it upon himself to be the reviled murderer so others don't have to be and the consequence of it all rests on Anders' shoulders alone.

Also weren't you reading the thread? A friend Anders is quite stable for a possessed person and worthy of giving a chance to redeem himself, he has that right more than Loghain if not equally.

[MisterJB]

 

 

Wow, sacrificing innocents to achieve one's ambitions.

Why, who would do such a dastardly thing?
 

[Terodil]

I guess the difficulty, as usual, is in the fact that there are no whites and blacks here, just shades of grey (*cough*). And even that simile is problematic because it suggests a stable state, whereas the real world is dynamic. What may begin as 'mostly good with bad bits' (Justice untempered by mercy) may quite easily end up as 'mostly bad with good bits' (mass murder sparking a catastrophe which may ultimately lead to a better world state).

 

I personally detest the self-righteousness and moral absolutism that Anders/Vengeance fall into by the end of DA2, coupled with an equally absolute 'whatever it takes'. While I have utmost sympathy for the mages in 90% of my playthroughs (freeing Jowan, letting him redeem himself, saving apostates from templars in DA2 etc.), I fail to ever feel anything but hatred for Anders at the end of DA2. I suspect that even his displays of guilt are nothing but an act that serves to stylise himself into a martyr of a cause nobody but a few, equally despicable, mages share (e.g., Uldred). And that is even worse for me because I absolutely adore Anders in DA:A (and share his cause, most of the time).

 

P.S./Edit: To elaborate: Kirkwall is clearly an outlier in how mages are treated in Thedas. The situation is not good, but still quite tolerable when Hawke arrives in KW. It deteriorates at a slow pace until the red lyrium warps Meredith's perception of reality. Other numerous circles show that templars and mages can find a workable, if uneasy, balance somewhere between mage predominance and templar predominance. In fact, we are shown quite clearly in DA:O that putting mages on one side and templars on the other is not the right way to look at it; ultimately both parties share the same goals, like the two hands and two eyes a body uses to interact with an object

 

Yet this one act of "freedom fighting" (blurgh!) destroys freedom not only for most mages, but most templars and most innocent bystanders as well. It's not freedom fighting at all. It's a rash and brutal act of impulsiveness, free of any moral/ethical considerations. Like all demons, Vengeance acts on emotions alone, not on a well-thought-out analysis and consideration of alternatives. And everybody but him pays the price.

[Beerfish]

Anders will be in Inquis.  My Hawke had him stuffed and carries around his mummified body to use as a throw rug.

[MisterJB]

Didn't the Loyalists, Lucrosians and Isolationists imediatelly abandon the Aequitarians and Libertarians to return to the Chantry?

 

Boy, that must have pissed off. Almost worth it keeping him alive just for that.

[Sports72Xtrm]

I guess the difficulty, as usual, is in the fact that there are no whites and blacks here, just shades of grey (*cough*). And even that simile is problematic because it suggests a stable state, whereas the real world is dynamic. What may begin as 'mostly good with bad bits' (Justice untempered by mercy) may quite easily end up as 'mostly bad with good bits' (mass murder sparking a catastrophe which may ultimately lead to a better world state).

 

I personally detest the self-righteousness and moral absolutism that Anders/Vengeance fall into by the end of DA2, coupled with an equally absolute 'whatever it takes'. While I have utmost sympathy for the mages in 90% of my playthroughs (freeing Jowan, letting him redeem himself, saving apostates from templars in DA2 etc.), I fail to ever feel anything but hatred for Anders at the end of DA2. I suspect that even his displays of guilt are nothing but an act that serves to stylise himself into a martyr of a cause nobody but a few, equally despicable, mages share (e.g., Uldred). And that is even worse for me because I absolutely adore Anders in DA:A (and share his cause, most of the time).

You think Justice or anders are egoists? I disagree. He never sought fame, power, or fortune. He spent his life healing people like Ferelden reguees for free or helping apostates be free of the Circle  with no expectation of thanks or reward and was content with being annonymous. If people praise him, its not what motivates him. It's just their nature to seek out justice for the downtrodden.