1260 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

Wow, sacrificing innocents to achieve one's ambitions.
Why, who would do such a dastardly thing?

The keywords:
"One's ambition"
"Innocent"

[MisterJB]

The keywords:
"One's ambition"
"Innocent"

First of all, Anders bomb killed hundreds of people, confirmed by Vivienne. This war is killing thousands.

"Free mages" is still an ambition.

[Terodil]

You think Justice or anders are egoists? I disagree. He never sought fame, power, or fortune. He spent his life healing people like Ferelden reguees for free or helping apostates be free of the Circle  with no expectation of thanks or reward and was content with being annonymous. If people praise him, its not what motivates him. It's just their nature to seek out justice for the downtrodden.

 

Yes I do. Egoism is not solely the pursuit of fame, power, or fortune; it is the pursuit of whatever yields gratification without taking into account the negative effects on others. In this case: Vengeance. Vengeance is a goal unto itself. Vengance is gratified by seeing hundreds, if not thousands of people die for what he perceives as injustice. He is not called the 'spirit of freedom', or 'spirit of justice for the downtrodden'. By the end of DA2, when the decision to blow up the Chantry is made, he is Vengeance.

 

I'd also like to point out that Anders being the selfless healer in the Undercity is probably the last remainder of what's left of Anders (and Justice pre-devolution into Vengeance).

[Lulupab]

First of all, Anders bomb killed hundreds of people, confirmed by Vivienne. This war is killing thousands.
"Free mages" is still an ambition.

Its not the ambition of "one person", clearly Vivienne is part of minority who support the circle. The existence of chantry is made possible by mass genocide, rape and other horrendous crimes done in a global war led by Andraste and her barbarians. And I have to repeat that Justice gains nothing from freeing mages, he is not even a person, he is like a force in the Universe, doing what it thinks is right.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Yes I do. Egoism is not solely the pursuit of fame, power, or fortune; it is the pursuit of whatever yields gratification without taking into account the negative effects on others. In this case: Vengeance. Vengeance is a goal unto itself. Vengance is gratified by seeing hundreds, if not thousands of people die for what he perceives as injustice. He is not called the 'spirit of freedom', or 'spirit of justice for the downtrodden'. By the end of DA2, when the decision to blow up the Chantry is made, he is Vengeance.

 

I'd also like to point out that Anders being the selfless healer in the Undercity is probably the last remainder of what's left of Anders (and Justice pre-devolution into Vengeance).

Consideration of the negative effects for others is subjective. The circle system was not chosen by everyone, it was imposed upon them. Do the other apostates' feelings about the Circle system not warrant consideration or the negative effects on them? Because if you say no you are being just as insensitive to their views on the matter. Kirkwall has been a tinderbox for a long time but codexes such as the spiral eye, and apostate's courage shows that there have been  a lot of mage unrest and discontent with the system for a long time. Not just in Kirkwall, the circle is an injustice in many places beyond Kirikwall. Starkhaven burned down, Rivain's Circle was annuled. The Circle system is broken and perhaps it is Ferelden that is an outlier. And even in Ferelden, the Circle and templars uses its apprentices and mundanes as pawns in their petty game of their own version of the Grand Game. The Circle system is distasteful in my opinion. Even the Champion of Kirkwall has magic in his blood. Hawke's father is an apostate who rebeled against the system to be with his true love. Just as in war, you cannot plan change with out risk taking. There is no way to act that catalyzes change with out risk taking. And the Circle as evidence by the heavy amount of mage unrest, needed change.

[Terodil]

Consideration of the negative effects for others is subjective. [...] Do the other apostates' feelings about the Circle system not warrant consideration or the negative effects on them?

 

Yes, they do! So, let's see, what do they get out of Vengeance's mass-murder? They'll most probably lose their homes, and quite probably their lives as well.

 

I stand by my claim that Vengeance is just like any other demon, selfish, purely emotional, and utterly destructive.

 

(That said, you do make good points, and I sympathize with the view that the Circle system is broken. But would it be entirely unfair to say that on a scale from "Tevinter Imperium" to "Qun-like mage enslavement", the circle system is somewhere in the middle and therefore not the worst? besides, what would be better?)

 

P.S. "risk taking" in this context is so overly euphemistic that it almost makes me sick. It's not taking a risk, at all! He is deliberately killing hundreds, if not thousands, on the basis of a purely emotional impulse!! If you want to use a term remotely positive, maybe "sacrifice" comes close. But that is one HELL of a sacrifice that I doubt any sane person / non-demon would make, ESPECIALLY since it does not include him (as above: Vengeance is a goal unto himself, so if Vengeance gets killed out of vengeance for what he has done, he is DOUBLY gratified).

[Sports72Xtrm]

Yes, they do! So, let's see, what do they get out of Vengeance's mass-murder? They'll most probably lose their homes, and quite probably their lives as well.

 

I stand by my claim that Vengeance is just like any other demon, selfish, purely emotional, and utterly destructive.

 

(That said, you do make good points, and I sympathize with the view that the Circle system is broken. But would it be entirely unfair to say that on a scale from "Tevinter Imperium" to "Qun-like mage enslavement", the circle system is somewhere in the middle and therefore not the worst? besides, what would be better?)

 

P.S. "risk taking" in this context is so overly euphemistic that it almost makes me sick. It's not taking a risk, at all! He is fully deliberately killing hundreds, if not thousands, on the basis of a purely emotional impulse!!

What would be better? In my opinion, this is an excerpt of how things before the chantry took over.

Prior to the Chantry Circle’s formation, magic was either practiced by the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium or in remote areas, knowledge handed down from one generation of practitioners to the next. “Hedge mages,” as Enchanters of the Circle refer to them, or “witches” as legend would name them, do not always employ forbidden magic. Quite often their talents lie in the creation of charms, the use of curses and the ability to change their own forms. And long before the Chantry there was a Circle of Magi: the society of mages in each city. Circles still existed but they were boarding schools for mages to learn magic, not prisons guarded by jailors. And the way they fought against corruption is that  the Inquisition was formed with the goal of protecting the people from the tyranny of magic in whatever form it might takes. They weren't jailors, they were vigilantes who conducted nvestigations and even applications of justice, protecting both mages and common people impartially.

 

If I were to rate the circle system now, I say it is oppression that should not be tolerated just like Tevinter's or Qunari's treatment of mages. Because all oppression is bad, no matter its benefits.

[Br3admax]

Its not the ambition of "one person", clearly Vivienne is part of minority who support the circle. The existence of chantry is made possible by mass genocide, rape and other horrendous crimes done in a global war led by Andraste and her barbarians. And I have to repeat that Justice gains nothing from freeing mages, he is not even a person, he is like a force in the Universe, doing what it thinks is right.

The Inquisitor was a part of the Circle as well and didn't say she was wrong. You really need to calm down. Anders killed hundreds of people, and there's no way around that. 

[Lulupab]

The Inquisitor was a part of the Circle as well and didn't say she was wrong. You really need to calm down. Anders killed hundreds of people, and there's no way around that.

So? Did you see me denying that anywhere in my post? why did you even quote me. The majority of mages want to be rid of leash of chantry and Templars.

The bottom line is that what Anders did was reprehensible. It was murder, without question, and the murder of innocents is NEVER justified. Having said that, it is also completely and utterly true that the kind of change he was advocating for would NEVER have happened otherwise. You can see the groundwork for this being laid in various dialogues in Origins. The one that sticks in my mind most strongly is the blood mage in the Circle Tower: "We thought, someone always has to take the first step--force a change."

There's just no getting around it: in the real world you see example after example of drastic, permanent changes being made in the world for the GOOD. What nobody ever likes to talk about is that good people, innocent people, can and DO die in the process. The point was also made fictitiously with Andraste: she challenged the Imperium and freed the slaves and southern Thedas, and created the Chantry. But she was also a conquering warlord. People DIED or worse because of her, and not all of those people were servants of the Imperium.

[HiroVoid]

Has a sample size been taken on what mages think?  If I remember right, most were Aeguitarians or whatever instead of Libertarians.

[Nohvarr]

the kind of change he was advocating for would NEVER have happened otherwise.

 

Ah the classic refuge of people unwilling or unable to think of a better way to accomplish their goals.

[Br3admax]

So? Did you see me denying that anywhere in my post? why did you even quote me. The majority of mages want to be rid of leash of chantry and Templars.

The bottom line is that what Anders did was reprehensible. It was murder, without question, and the murder of innocents is NEVER justified. Having said that, it is also completely and utterly true that the kind of change he was advocating for would NEVER have happened otherwise. 

Except reform was happening. The only thing he has ever advocated for was mage dominance. And that's never going to happen period. All he did was thin the number of mages and make the rest be persecuted. He wanted a war, and I guess you can say he got that. He didn't give mages anymore freedoms however, and it's delusional to pretend otherwise. 

[Lulupab]

Has a sample size been taken on what mages think?  If I remember right, most were Aeguitarians or whatever instead of Libertarians.

Thousands of mages gather at Andorhal's reach to fight Templars, this is canon. Libertarians were starting to grow very quickly by the events of asunder, by the time they close to Aequitarians who were still the dominant fraternity the rebellion happened. Aequitarians are neutral in their views however they valuie their life therefore they sided with Libertarians instead of Loyalists who were at a very great decline in numbers.

[MisterJB]

Its not the ambition of "one person", clearly Vivienne is part of minority who support the circle. The existence of chantry is made possible by mass genocide, rape and other horrendous crimes done in a global war led by Andraste and her barbarians. And I have to repeat that Justice gains nothing from freeing mages, he is not even a person, he is like a force in the Universe, doing what it thinks is right.

 

It's his ambition, it's something that he wants; just because someone else may want something similar, that doesn't change the fact it's Anders and Vengeance's ambition.

Also, the number of mages supporting the Circle doesn't alter the fact Anders killed hundreds of his people with his bomb.

And the vote to go to war won by like one vote, that's the bare minimum of a majority. Never mind, of course, that the choice presented to them wasn't "Should we be free or should we be in the Circles." but "Should we surrender to the incredibly pissed off Templars or fight" which probably affected their votes.

 

Whether Justice gains something or not is irrelevant but, in fact, if all that he gains is feeling that everything is "right" with the world, that is still something he gains.

 

It's his ambition all the same and to fulfill it, he sacrificed hundreds if not thousands of people. Justice is an hypocrite.
 

[Nohvarr]

Thousands of mages gather at Andorhal's reach to fight Templars, this is canon. Libertarians were starting to grow very quickly by the events of asunder, by the time they close to Aequitarians who were still the dominant fraternity the rebellion happened. Aequitarians are neutral in their views however they valuie their life therefore they sided with Libertarians instead of Loyalists who were at a very great decline in numbers.

And how many mages chose not to fight?

[Sports72Xtrm]

And how many mages chose not to fight?

All they have to do is lay down and beg for the templars to not kill them. If the templars kill them, they chose poorly. You act like the mages are drafting them instead of a call to arms. Some mages became grey wardens in the new book. They have more choices now then they did in the circle.

[Lulupab]

Except reform was happening. The only thing he has ever advocated for was mage dominance. And that's never going to happen period. All he did was thin the number of mages and make the rest be persecuted. He wanted a war, and I guess you can say he got that. He didn't give mages anymore freedoms however, and it's delusional to pretend otherwise.

The delusions are yours when you think its a fairly tale and when people like Lambert exist reforms can happen. He disbanded the college of enchanters at the mere idea of more freedom. The only time a reform happened for mages was a happy time after mages greatly aided in the blights. Again I have to repeat myself that for every Martin Luther King or Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi you see in the world, there are people with blood on their hands who give those leasers and the rest of the world the opportunity to take the moral high road. Fiona can take the moral high ground and lead the mages because of actions of Anders and Adrian and similar people. Their actions ARE despicable, but that doesn't make them any less necessary. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous freedom fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around.

The point, in any event, is that violent, murderous revolutionaries play JUST as much a role in bringing about positive changes to injustice as anyone else. Whether you like it or not, that's a fact of history. And one of the biggest ways they do it is exactly as did Anders: by giving reasonable people cause to step back and say "Hey, templars, you can't rise up and slaughter all the mages of every Circle in Thedas for the actions of one lone fanatic," which can quickly lead to "Hey, maybe part of the problem is that mages are being forced into desperate situations. We should rectify this." This is EXACTLY what Fiona used to rally mages and it worked. So in the end whether alive or dead Anders achieved his goal which was mages realizing those very sentences in quotation marks.

[Lulupab]

And how many mages chose not to fight?

Given that mages are already minority of the people and thousands gathered at the reach, I suspect very few chose not to fight.

[Nohvarr]

Given that mages are already minority of the people and thousands gathered at the reach, I suspect very few chose not to fight.

So you have no actual numbers...for all you know an equal amount of mages stayed out of the conflict all together....noted.

 

[MisterJB]

Also, since we're talking about Vivienne being part of a minority of mages who want to remain in the Circle (allegedly), then we could even expand that and simply include all citizens of Thedosian nations in which case, the overwhelming majority wants mages to be in the Circles.

[HiroVoid]

Given that mages are already minority of the people and thousands gathered at the reach, I suspect very few chose not to fight.

[Lulupab]

It's his ambition, it's something that he wants; just because someone else may want something similar, that doesn't change the fact it's Anders and Vengeance's ambition.
Also, the number of mages supporting the Circle doesn't alter the fact Anders killed hundreds of his people with his bomb.
And the vote to go to war won by like one vote, that's the bare minimum of a majority. Never mind, of course, that the choice presented to them wasn't "Should we be free or should we be in the Circles." but "Should we surrender to the incredibly pissed off Templars or fight" which probably affected their votes.
 
Whether Justice gains something or not is irrelevant but, in fact, if all that he gains is feeling that everything is "right" with the world, that is still something he gains.
 
It's his ambition all the same and to fulfill it, he sacrificed hundreds if not thousands of people. Justice is an hypocrite.

No as of now the majority of mages have joined Fiona in fight for gaining autonomy. I'd its the ambition of almost all mages since the loyalist were already in great decline and are probably very few right now. Also you should read what I wrote in answer to Br3admax.

[Nohvarr]

No as of now the majority of mages have joined Fiona in fight for gaining autonomy. I'd its the ambition of almost all mages since the loyalist were already in great decline and are probably very few right now. Also you should read what I wrote in answer to Br3admax.

Another guess based off wishful thinking. Especially since we know the mages were at the peace conclave in numbers, and even the Inquisitors own mage backstory as a human implies they were forced to defend themselves in the war and were not necessarily fighting to achieve Fiona's goal. More likely most mages wanted to simply survive the conflict people like Fiona started.

[Lulupab]

So you have no actual numbers...for all you know an equal amount of mages stayed out of the conflict all together....noted.

Sure, provided thousands of mages popped out of nowhere.

The largest mage fraternity officially joined the second largest fraternity to oppose templars. Given that loyalists (mages who don't want to fight) were already in decline, even though there are no actuals numbers a large majority of mages are fighting.

[Nohvarr]

Sure, provided thousands of mages popped out of nowhere.

The largest mage fraternity officially joined the second largest fraternity to oppose templars. Given that loyalists (mages who don't want to fight) were already in decline, even though there are no actuals numbers a large majority of mages are fighting.

But you have no idea how many mages in total exist.....you've just assumed it's a low number and that most are willingly fighting for freedom when for all you know most are just fighting to survive a conflict they wanted no part in.