1260 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

Another guess based off wishful thinking. Especially since we know the mages were at the peace conclave in numbers, and even the Inquisitors own mage backstory as a human implies they were forced to defend themselves in the war and were not necessarily fighting to achieve Fiona's goal. More likely most mages wanted to simply survive the conflict people like Fiona started.

Now THAT is wishful thinking, no sane mage would do nothing when all of his brethren went through ethnic cleansing for a crime they had absolutely nothing to do with. Its simple really, they realized the same thing could happen to them. What's stopping them from getting the blame if an apostate nearby does such a thing? The answer to this question was NOTHING.

[Br3admax]

The delusions are yours when you think its a fairly tale and when people like Lambert exist reforms can happen. He disbanded the college of enchanters at the mere idea of more freedom. The only time a reform happened for mages was a happy time after mages greatly aided in the blights. Again I have to repeat myself that for every Martin Luther King or Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi you see in the world, there are people with blood on their hands who give those leasers and the rest of the world the opportunity to take the moral high road. Fiona can take the moral high ground and lead the mages because of actions of Anders and Adrian and similar people. Their actions ARE despicable, but that doesn't make them any less necessary. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous freedom fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around.

This is actually one of the absolute most ridiculous things I've ever read you say. These "freedom fighters" you keep trying to tout without naming a single one that caused successive reform, have no bearing on Thedas. A common argument I've seen is, "Mandela was a "freedom fighter" so yeah that's needed to find reform." in case you're looking for one in the future. Back to what you said, Anders blowing up the Chantry didn't have any bearing on Fiona leading an organization she already lead. As to Lambert standing in the way to reform when he himself has no power over Chantry policy, is just to lulzworthy for me to even respond to. 

 

 

The point, in any event, is that violent, murderous revolutionaries play JUST as much a role in bringing about positive changes to injustice as anyone else. 

Of course. Murdering hundreds of people to prove mages aren't dangerous makes a lot of sense. 

 

 

Whether you like it or not, that's a fact of history. 

 I'll wait for your example of how people proved they could be trusted by killing people. Either way, mages can't be compared to real world. 

And one of the biggest ways they do it is exactly as did Anders: by giving reasonable people cause to step back and say "Hey, templars, you can't rise up and slaughter all the mages of every Circle in Thedas for the actions of one lone fanatic," which can quickly lead to "Hey, maybe part of the problem is that mages are being forced into desperate situations. We should rectify this." This is EXACTLY what Fiona used to rally mages and it worked. So in the end whether alive or dead Anders achieved his goal which was mages realizing those very sentences in quotation marks.

That argument makes absolutely no sense, as Anders has only been in one of the most mage friendly Circles seen so far in Thedas. Anders was never put in a desperate situation where he had to blow up someone to make a point. The only thing anyone is thinking, "Hey, every time a mage goes free, they destroy everything around them. Oh, and they tore a hole into the Fade. Let's kill them all and problems like this will never happen again,"

[Nohvarr]

Now THAT is wishful thinking, no sane mage would do nothing when all of his brethren went through ethnic cleansing for a crime they had absolutely nothing to do with. Its simple really, they realized the same thing could happen to them. What's stopping them from getting the blame if an apostate nearby does such a thing? The answer to this question was NOTHING.

Wrong, the book last flight shows Mages and Templars are seeking saftey away from the conflict between the rogue mages and Rogue Templars.

[Terodil]

The point, in any event, is that violent, murderous revolutionaries play JUST as much a role in bringing about positive changes to injustice as anyone else. Whether you like it or not, that's a fact of history. And one of the biggest ways they do it is exactly as did Anders: by giving reasonable people cause to step back and say "Hey, templars, you can't rise up and slaughter all the mages of every Circle in Thedas for the actions of one lone fanatic," [...]

 

This would be sound reasoning if there were no backlash. The way Anders/Vengeance handled it, he simply poured oil into the fire, inciting both the mages AND the templars (and all the respective supporters) to a bloody civil war -- just as the mages and their supporters could say the above, the templars and their supporters would reason that this was proof that mages needed to be put under even closer control. Therefore Anders's act was in no way productive or liberating, like you claim, but purely destructive.

[Sports72Xtrm]

This would be sound reasoning if there were no backlash. The way Anders/Vengeance handled it, he simply poured oil into the fire, inciting both the mages AND the templars (and all the respective supporters) to a bloody civil war -- just as the mages and their supporters could say the above, the templars and their supporters would reason that this was proof that mages needed to be put under even closer control. Therefore Anders's act was in no way productive or liberating, like you claim, but purely destructive.

Yet in inquistition, how the mages turn out depends on player choice. If the inquisitor makes the right alliances, at least in Ferelden in Orlais, relations with the rebel mages will be a lot friendlier or the inquisition will cow them enough that they'll be too afraid to do anything about it. So in one possible future, mages do come out whole at the end of the tunnel. Yay for freedom of choice.

[Lulupab]

This is actually one of the absolute most ridiculous things I've ever read you say. These "freedom fighters" you keep trying to tout without naming a single one that caused successive reform, have no bearing on Thedas. A common argument I've seen is, "Mandela was a "freedom fighter" so yeah that's needed to find reform." in case you're looking for one in the future. Back to what you said, Anders blowing up the Chantry didn't have any bearing on Fiona leading an organization she already lead. As to Lambert standing in the way to reform when he himself has no power over Chantry policy, is just to lulzworthy for me to even respond to.

I'm not gonna discuss real life figures, if you don't know of any that's your problem, maybe its time you looked up Netherlands independence war or similar events to know what sort of disgusting acts were committed to free a nation from tyranny. Also Lambert had every power he needed, The chantry is in shambles after the Templars went rogue, bot even the chantries around the world are united anymore.

Of course. Murdering hundreds of people to prove mages aren't dangerous makes a lot of sense.

I'm sorry but that's not what Anders tried to prove. He proved mages are never safe and if he goes on and does something like all mages were pay for it because they are not treated like people. This is also what mages realized before joining Fiona, what's stopping them from getting ethnic cleansing when an apostate close to them does such a thing? Nothing is stopping it.

I'll wait for your example of how people proved they could be trusted by killing people. Either way, mages can't be compared to real world.

That's not what I said, people doing the abhorrent acts provide opportunity for great leaders to take the moral high ground and lead people without repeating the act. Its not even about their magical abilities. For example in order for X to rise as great leader who will bring positive changes, Y must die so a person kills Y and bears responsibility for that action without any connection to X. X now has the opportunity to rise. In Anders' case it was a wake up call for mages.

That argument makes absolutely no sense, as Anders has only been in one of the most mage friendly Circles seen so far in Thedas. Anders was never put in a desperate situation where he had to blow up someone to make a point. The only thing anyone is thinking, "Hey, every time a mage goes free, they destroy everything around them. Oh, and they tore a hole into the Fade. Let's kill them all and problems like this will never happen again,"

Some might but some will ask the question I told you and hence we have a rebellion now. There is no "We" in Anders' case and that is where you are wrong. Its solely "I'. he and he alone is responsible and all of mages get the blame and this blaming is what Anders is trying to prove alongside how blindly templars follow orders like the drug addicts they are so the corruption of their leader is no excuse. Templars done an unjust ethnic cleansing and there is no way around it

[MisterJB]

There is only one this that you need to do in order to get through DA2 which is:

 

 

Whenever Anders starts talking, you:

 

If he insists, then you:

[herkles]

That argument makes absolutely no sense, as Anders has only been in one of the most mage friendly Circles seen so far in Thedas. Anders was never put in a desperate situation where he had to blow up someone to make a point. The only thing anyone is thinking, "Hey, every time a mage goes free, they destroy everything around them. Oh, and they tore a hole into the Fade. Let's kill them all and problems like this will never happen again,"

 

Heck didn't anders say in awekening that he escaped the circle like six or seven times as if it was a game to him?

[Nohvarr]

This would be sound reasoning if there were no backlash. The way Anders/Vengeance handled it, he simply poured oil into the fire, inciting both the mages AND the templars (and all the respective supporters) to a bloody civil war -- just as the mages and their supporters could say the above, the Templars and their supporters would reason that this was proof that mages needed to be put under even closer control. Therefore Anders's act was in no way productive or liberating, like you claim, but purely destructive.

What makes this even more interesting to me, is that we now know something is manipulating events behind the scene to engineer chaos....so at best Anders and Meredith were both made to dance for the amusement of their Puppet Master, and this Rebellion is just another way to drain prevent anyone from opposint the real villains.

 

So to all those Mages and Templars too stupid to realize how they've been used....

 

[Lulupab]

What makes this even more interesting to me, is that we now know something is manipulating events behind the scene to engineer chaos....so at best Anders and Meredith were both made to dance for the amusement of their Puppet Master, and this Rebellion is just another way to drain prevent anyone from opposint the real villains.
 
So to all those Mages and Templars too stupid to realize how they've been used....

 

[ComedicSociopathy]

What makes this even more interesting to me, is that we now know something is manipulating events behind the scene to engineer chaos....so at best Anders and Meredith were both made to dance for the amusement of their Puppet Master, and this Rebellion is just another way to drain prevent anyone from opposint the real villains.

 

So to all those Mages and Templars too stupid to realize how they've been used....

 

So, instead of this war being about ideology, freedom and equal rights, it all turns out to be part of the nefarious plan of some demonic super-villain we haven't even encountered yet.

 

Well that's all kinds of lame. 

[LOLandStuff]

Is that snot? And are those X's for eyes?

[AresKeith]

What makes this even more interesting to me, is that we now know something is manipulating events behind the scene to engineer chaos....so at best Anders and Meredith were both made to dance for the amusement of their Puppet Master, and this Rebellion is just another way to drain prevent anyone from opposint the real villains.

 

So to all those Mages and Templars too stupid to realize how they've been used....

 

 

"There are.... no strings on me"

 

[Nohvarr]

So, instead of this war being about ideology, freedom and equal rights, it all turns out to be part of the nefarious plan of some demonic super-villain we haven't even encountered yet.

 

Well that's all kinds of lame. 

Oh they think it's about all that...but isn't it funny that Meredith get's her hands on Red lyrium just as more and more blood mages begin showing up in Kirkwall? Isn't it odd that a woman who rejected ser Alrik's tranquil solution would suddenly be so keen to kill all mages?

 

To Her Excellency, Divine Justinia,

 

I am well aware both you and Knight-Commander Meredith have rejected my proposal, but I beg you to reconsider. The mages in the Free Marches are past controlling, their numbers have doubled in three years, and they have found a way to plant their abominations in our ranks. They cannot be contained!

The Tranquil Solution is our answer. All mages at the age of majority must be made Tranquil. They'll coexist peacefully, retain their usefulness—a perfect strategy! It's simply the best way to ensure mages obey the laws of men and Maker.

 

I remain, as always, your obedient servant,

Ser Otto Alrik

 

Curious indeed.

[Nohvarr]

"There are.... no strings on me"

 

You're just tangled in strings you don't even see....

[Br3admax]

I'm not gonna discuss real life figures, if you don't know of any that's your problem, maybe its time you looked up Netherlands independence war or similar events to know what sort of disgusting acts were committed to free a nation from tyranny. Also Lambert had every power he needed, The chantry is in shambles after the Templars went rogue, bot even the chantries around the world are united anymore.

"I'm not going to support my argument, but I'll keep that Mandela comparison for future reference. My opinion alone is steel. It needs no support" 

 

 

I'm sorry but that's not what Anders tried to prove. He proved mages are never safe and if he goes on and does something like all mages were pay for it because they are not treated like people. This is also what mages realized before joining Fiona, what's stopping them from getting ethnic cleansing when an apostate close to them does such a thing? Nothing is stopping it.

LOL. Let's assume your argument is correct for a second even though Anders said nothing of the sort, how does that help mages? If anything, he just encouraged their extinction. 

 

 

That's not what I said, people doing the abhorrent acts provide opportunity for great leaders to take the moral high ground and lead people without repeating the act. Its not even about their magical abilities. For example in order for X to rise as great leader who will bring positive changes, Y must die so a person kills Y and bears responsibility for that action without any connection to X. X now has the opportunity to rise. In Anders' case it was a wake up call for mages.

That type of extremist talk is disgusting. That's not how reform works, that's how cycles of death and destruction work. Anders gave a wake up call to the rest of Thedas and mages were persecuted because he did it in their name with the tool they are feared for. 

 

 

Some might but some will ask the question I told you and hence we have a rebellion now. There is no "We" in Anders' case and that is where you are wrong. Its solely "I'. he and he alone is responsible and all of mages get the blame and this blaming is what Anders is trying to prove alongside how blindly templars follow orders like the drug addicts they are so the corruption of their leader is no excuse. Templars done an unjust ethnic cleansing and there is no way around it

You're right. Even though Anders said the complete opposite and forced all of the mages issues on to himself even though he was not related to their situations in the slightest, this is what he was really doing. He wasn't trying to instigate a war that would lead to mage supremacy. He was just pretending in all of his other dialogue since Awakening that said as much. 

[Lulupab]

The divine is an abomination. Confirmed.

[Nohvarr]

The divine is an abomination. Confirmed.

How did you reach that conclusion?

[ComedicSociopathy]

The divine is an abomination. Confirmed.

 

By Insane Troll Logic as far as I can tell. 

[Mr.House]

The divine is an abomination. Confirmed.

Seeing as she's the one who helped the mages thus forcing the seekers and templars to annul their contract....

 

You should be thanking the Divine for being a traitor.

[Lulupab]

"I'm not going to support my argument, but I'll keep that Mandela comparison for future reference. My opinion alone is steel. It needs no support"

So have nothing to say when you discover (perhaps in shock) that history of all free countries are filled with murderous freedom fighters with more than blood on their hands. Good to know you have absolutely nothing to counter this argument.

Not gonna quote anymore as my post will be long enough. In rest of your post you made a crucial logical mistake. You try to apply the norms of a post merchantile democratic society in a pre-merchantile feudal society. Truly nowadays such an act of terrorism is abhorrent, inexcusable and not an effective carrier of change. People react to exercises of strength or violence in a different manner and a non agressive approach is much more plausible because most of our societies have democratic regimes or even before those at least in the past 3 centuries there was a diffusion of authority because of merchantile strength and the rise of the burgeois against the feudal system. Dragon Age is clearly a feudal society and not a particularly enlightened one politically. The common people have no electoral power and very minor purchasing power. The feudal lords have very limited electoral power which is under the constant censure of military and religious power centers. Ferelden is perhaps further advanced because its existence is in opposition to Orlais; their nationalism is defined in opposition to Orlesian norms and it is well likely that the Orlesians could attack it at any moment. Kirkwall is much different. Its viscounts are presented to have ruled under the approval of the chantry and templars. If the common people rebelled against Meredith, she would simply put them down; in fact Leliana makes it pretty clear that the Divine might well put the entire city to the torch.

In this balance, one should consider the choice made by Anders. Perhaps change could be accomplished with a moderate approach but it would not take decades, but rather centuries. Not until the economic and political structures could support rights movements would the Mages be able to tap to the concordance of the collective to force political reforms. In this time we are weighing a likely short though violent war against the current situation. Templars do not simply incarcerate mages. There are extensive instances of molestation and rape, constant psychological violence, and the right of tranquility which is exploitation and murder of soul; the skills of the Tranquil are abused and they get pretty much nothing in return, plus the debatable morality behind it. All I am saying is, do not compare what Anders did with examples of social reforms in the past century cause there is no analogy. Rather consider any instances of actual social reform taking place peacefully in the Dark Ages.

And do not forget that the purpose of this thread is not the morality behind Anders' actions but about sparing him afterwards.

[Lulupab]

Seeing as she's the one who helped the mages thus forcing the seekers and templars to annul their contract....
 
You should be thanking the Divine for being a traitor.

You do realize I was jesting? It was a response to Nohvarr's conspiracy theory that someone is pulling all strings.

[Mr.House]

You do realize I was jesting? It was a response to Nohvarr's conspiracy theory that someone is pulling all strings.

Which is most likley the case anyways, then again, DA2 was so poorly written that it'd not strange trying to make DA2 sound better then it really was.

[AresKeith]

You do realize I was jesting? It was a response to Nohvarr's conspiracy theory that someone is pulling all strings.

 

That's not much of a conspiracy theory, Bioware even hinted at all of this being more than a coincidence

[Hair Serious Business]

My sister can't stand both Anders and Fenris...she says they whine too much for her taste...well I agree on that,still guy that annoyed hell out of me is Sebastian he is main reason why I always let Anders live just to ****** him off.