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[Gothfather]

The townspeople are literally property of the king and he controls the Templars now. No sane mind would come to your conclusion. Their lands, their wives, their children, EVERYTHING is controlled by the feudal lords of Thedas and rising against mages is now treason to the throne.

 

err really? No sane mind? Seems to me that the protestant witch killings in Germany and England were very much fueled by peasants and townspeople fearing the unknown very different from the American salem witch trails. Peasant upraisings are very common in fuedal society. Its not uncommon for people who are afraid and ignorant to lashout at what they fear. Killing mages is very much a real posability in response to the war.

 

The dangers and evils that mages represent is real. It isn't representative of all mages but it is not imaginary. People who are afraid and who are ignorant will lash out if they think this is the only way to protect their loved ones regardless if it is considered treason.

 

 

You make too much comparison to the real world and it simply doesn't work. Only one rebellion by common people has ever worked in Thedas and that was Andraste, the common people are always at the mercy of nobles and royalty, this has always been the case in Thedas. If you steal grain from a person you will probably get lashed or something but stealing from royalty is punished by death by hanging.

The people have their rights as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of nobility. Mind you the king of Ferelden almost ordered the burning of all chantries and abandoning the belief when the divine openly approved of Orlais' conquest. Just reminding you that the king has such power and the people or at least the majority will follow the king in such matters. Its better for Templars to serve the state rather than the Chantry.

So the one rebeliion that work which started because of the fear and oppression of magic upon the non gifted and you can't see these people raising up again, in the spirit of how their very religion was foundeed, to stop this latest war which at its heart has to do with the precieved threat of magic?

[Hellion Rex]

We know for a fact that mages there are allowed to leave, own property and have family. They might be obligated to return on a specific timeline but still you don't hear about Abomination outrages in tevinter nor before the time of Andraste. This certainly tells us something.

But Tevinter also has a class system that would eat most Southern mages alive. You have to fight, tooth and nail, to gain any ground in Tevinter. There is no free lunch. They fought like hell to make that empire. It's not as pretty as you make it out to be. And I say this as person who finds Tevinter culture captivating.

[Lulupab]

Using Tevinter as support in an argument to let mages be free is actually really foolish.

 

I think its quite safe to use mages without political power to support the argument. 99% of mages are not magisters in tevinter. The point is Tevinter seems to have so much lesser abomination incidents, they are either very rare or handled perfectly and swiftly. 

 

I've still got pretty mixed feelings about saying a system that lasted around a thousand years a failure.  It certainly lasted much longer than many other systems.

 

The system of educating mages and protection was right, giving too much power to templars with too less supervision was wrong. Oh and autonomy in the circles would be interesting to see as well.

 

But Tevinter also has a class system that would eat most Southern mages alive. You have to fight, tooth and nail, to gain any ground in Tevinter. There is no free lunch. They fought like hell to make that empire. It's not as pretty as you make it out to be. And I say this as person who finds Tevinter culture captivating.

 

Not every mage is a magister who fought for the titles. The majority are lesser mages who are content with their life.

[Br3admax]

Not as prisoners. Make it a Chantry sanctioned research center staffed by Templars. Have your brightest Aequitarian or Loyalist mages go there to study and create better defenses against blood magic and other such research.

And what is supposed to happen to the dissidents?   

[MisterJB]

The game and other lore have shown us many recruits are joined for the money, after all the only requirement for becoming a templar is wanting to become one.

 

And even so, they are still making a sacrifice so people can be protected.

 

Every single Templar suffers from the addiction, same cannot be said about the mages.

And every single mages is susceptible to the temptation of their own power and that of demons.

 

That depends on what you mean by "violence". There are many examples I can make but you will simply say that was one Templar. I can start from the Templar who were after Anders in awakening, Ser Karras and his men, Templars attacking the Dalish and potentially killing them.

Without a doubt Templars would ruthlessly kill a mother if she doesn't let them take her son or they will take the mother even if it means her children will be left without a guardian. Unlike the mage scenario there is no risk that these might happen, they do happen.

Do you realize that you are applying a tremendous double standard here?

You have one group of Templars attacking without provocation and hold it as evidence that there is no risk of death but certainty when dealing with Templars.

But on the other hand, you mantain that there is only a risk when in the "mage scenario" and this despite the fact many blood mages and Abominations have harmed many, many, many people.

Or are you going to tell me those don't "happen"?

 

Also, the Templars after Anders is Awakening were pursuing him for the seventh time. Clearly, they didn't "kill first and ask question later" or Anders would have been dead a long time ago.

Karras is a terrible Templar but Thrask does stand up to him in Act 1.

 

So, you have two fair examples. Any more?

 

Also, I will require any example of Templars "killing mothers". Finally, children without guardians are sent to the Chantry to be looked after.

[Bigdoser]

err really? No sane mind? Seems to me that the protestant witch killings in Germany and England were very much fueled by peasants and townspeople fearing the unknown very different from the American salem witch trails. Peasant upraisings are very common in fuedal society. Its not uncommon for people who are afraid and ignorant to lashout at what they fear. Killing mages is very much a real posability in response to the war.

 

The dangers and evils that mages represent is real. It isn't representative of all mages but it is not imaginary. People who are afraid and who are ignorant will lash out if they think this is the only way to protect their loved ones regardless if it is considered treason.

 

Problem is these witches and warlocks can actually throw fireballs and use a host of other abilities to murder/stop a group of people. 

 

I would like to see normal towns folk try taking on a group of mages considering for Ostagar they sent 8-10? Even Irving says after the issues of the tower we still have enough mages to contend with a blight. When you are a mage he even states that you should know what we are capable of if you say its too few. 

[Br3admax]

I think its quite safe to use mages without political power to support the argument. 99% of mages are not magisters in tevinter. The point is Tevinter seems to have so much lesser abomination incidents, they are either very rare or handled perfectly and swiftly. 

That's because the death rate is higher among mages. Do you actually know what life is like in Tevinter? 

[Hellion Rex]

Not every mage is a magister who fought for the titles. The majority are lesser mages who are content with their life.

They don't have to be magisters. You think Northern Circle mages aren't subject to that heavy level of competition either? And most of those mages are content for their lives and freedom because they have fought so hard to maintain it all, something the Southerners have never had to do.

[HiroVoid]

I think its quite safe to use mages without political power to support the argument. 99% of mages are not magisters in tevinter. The point is Tevinter seems to have so much lesser abomination incidents, they are either very rare or handled perfectly and swiftly.

Oh cool.  Where was this mentioned?  I haven't picked up World of Thedas.

[Hellion Rex]

And what is supposed to happen to the dissidents?   

The ones who were already imprisoned in Aeonar? Kill them or make them Tranquil.

[Hellion Rex]

Oh cool.  Where was this mentioned?  I haven't picked up World of Thedas.

She pulled that percentage out of nowhere.

 

And Tevinter has done better with abominations because they both use blood magic and are well more versed in magic than the South.

[MisterJB]

It will be an endless cycle of war and hatred

Welcome to the human species. We hope you'll enjoy your stay.

Periods of wars broken by peaces where we fight with words and coins and resources rather than weapons.

[Gothfather]

It is related to that and your previous post. Mages are born that way, nothing much they can do about it. Templars choose to be drug addict maniacs. Excuse us if we protect the former from latter. Templars have shown many times over that they kill first and ask questions later. I don't see how you can deal with them if not killing them. Trust me when I say I never kill any if they give me no reason. Karras was Meredith's favorite btw.

Mages have shown many times over and over that they will merge with demons or use blood magic to control people. DA time and time agains shows us the horrors mages will commit. And likewise DA has shown us time and time again the horrors that Templars will commit.

 

Whats your point? Because some templars are evil that means mages can't be evil? Its more than possible for their to be two BAD factions in a war. There doesn't have to be a good side and a bad side. Proving the templars are bad doesn't actually prove the mage faction is good.

[Br3admax]

The ones who were already imprisoned in Aeonar? Kill them or make them Tranquil.

Tranquil. They still have a use then. 

[Bigdoser]

Welcome to the human species. We hope you'll enjoy your stay.

Periods of wars broken by peaces where we fight with words and coins and resources rather than weapons.

Yup as a human I would prefer to stop the cycle of hatred or making the first step towards ending it than causing it to go on for longer there needs to be change. 

[Gothfather]

Problem is these witches and warlocks can actually throw fireballs and use a host of other abilities to murder/stop a group of people. 

 

I would like to see normal towns folk try taking on a group of mages considering for Ostagar they sent 8-10? Even Irving says after the issues of the tower we still have enough mages to contend with a blight. When you are a mage he even states that you should know what we are capable of if you say its too few. 

What you can't defeat in the open you defeat with guile or  with numbers.

 

The history of Thedas already has a popular uprising of peasants defeating mages. Mages are powerful but they lack numbers and in the end they can be defeated full stop you can't argue otherwise because Bioware wrote it into their history that they were already defeated once.

[HiroVoid]

I say we go Shin Megami Tensei Law faction to end this cycle of hatred.

[Br3admax]

Ending hatred means the end of human nature. I saw we keep that Qun-esque thinking as far away from Thedas as possible. 

[Hellion Rex]

Tranquil. They still have a use then. 

Have them assist the mages doing the research.

[Nohvarr]

That system has utterly failed and Thedas will burn for it. 

 

Pretty much all mages were free from circles before Andrate and many still are in Tevinter. We know for a fact that mages there are allowed to leave, own property and have family. They might be obligated to return on a specific timeline but still you don't hear about Abomination outrages in tevinter nor before the time of Andraste. This certainly tells us something.

......you're kidding right? Your using the absence of a detailed account of pre Andraste outrage against blood magic as proof their were no abominations? That march against the old Tevinter imperium wasn't started because people one day woke up and said "Boy I hate mages!" and then went to war. The Blights alone are proof of that the ancient MAgisters made terrible mistakes that people are still paying for.

 

As for the Modern Imperium:

 

Tevinter society is notoriously decadent.^[5] Ambition and magical ability are the hallmarks of its ruling elite, the magisters. The ancient magister lords ruled the Imperium in the Circles of Magi (before their modern incarnation), maintaining a tight hold over its people through the power to infiltrate their dreams using blood magic. Though blood magic is now banned in the Imperium, mages who practice it are quietly acknowledged as the most proficient dreamers and diviners.^[6] The ban is really only paid lip service to; even the most devout mages in Tevinter know at least the basics. This circumvention is often necessary in order to simply survive the deadly rivalries and competitions for power and influence amongst the Tevinter noble families, who only ever put aside their constant bickering to unify in the event of a major crisis such as acts of sedition amongst the indentured populace.

 

This is the society you claim proves mages are not dangerous? A society that produced Fenris and his hatred of mages along with Dorian who feels the need to redeem his people.....

[Grieving Natashina]

One of the funny things about the way I feel about Anders is that it really depends upon who I'm roleplaying at the time.  

 

My rogues just want to leave Anders in Kirkwall, grab Isabela and Varric (can't leave without her lover and best bud) get their sister and run.  She didn't care about Anders at that point, and was too numb to react at first.  Don't get me wrong, that character (my first in DA2) loathed him for what he did, and now was caught in a no-win situation.   She was perfectly content to let Meredith or Sebastian kill him.  It would've bought her time to get her sister and the rest out of the city.

 

Change out the lover (for my rogues, it's usually Isabela or Fenris) and that's what every rogue I've played feels about Anders, as well as the city-state of Kirkwall as a whole.  She wants out and far far away from that nuthouse, Anders included.

 

My two warriors (especially my pro-Templar one) kill him, without hesitation, for the reasons that the pro-Templar/anti-Anders folk have mentioned.  It also wasn't just the lives that Janders had taken.  They/him/it had put Hawke's baby sister in danger.  For those characters, her sister was everything to her after Leandra's death.  He likes to talk a good game about justice for the mages, so I gave him a nice dose of Chantry-brand justice for putting Bethany in danger.

 

My mages, which I've played several, really vary in alignment towards Anders.  I've played extremely fanatical blood mages that would have helped Anders every step of the way, and was only pissed that she couldn't help him.  I've played mages that felt the exact opposite, feeling that the Circles were the best path and that Anders simply endangered everyone with his warped sense of right and wrong.  

 

I've also played mages that felt pity for Anders, spared his life to give him a chance of redemption, and yet told him that after he helps save the mages, he'd better stay far away from her.

 

As a person, I can never in my heart condone the killing dozens of citizens directly (I doubt there was much more than about 100 people in the church itself,) and the indirect killing of possibly thousands the day that Kirkwall rioted.  

 

I also can understand where the folks that hate Anders are coming from.  He was greedy in his goals, waaay too invested in his sense of the greater good, at times astonishingly cruel (I never let him murder the young mage) and is a flat out liar to the two people (Varric and Hawke) that could (potentially) be the only friends he has left by Act 3.  His acts were despictable, short-sighted, and destructive.

 

 

The level of frustration, anger and self-destruction is something I can roleplay and even relate to a tiny bit.   I've never ever thought what Anders did was right, but I could appreciate the story of a man/demon/spirit losing themselves and seeing only the one final judgement.

 

As a result of these views, in both agreeing and disagreeing with Anders, it has allowed me to roleplay from different perspectives, and I feel I've the most from his story.  Good, bad, or otherwise.

 

Now, I know that the devs said that if you kill Anders, he stays dead.  He will not appear in DA:I.  They did say that Justice might show up.  I doubt they mean the actual person or body of Anders.  Since we do have a resident Fade expert, and since we've seen a lot of screenshots of the Fade, even players that set their world state to have a dead Anders might run into Justice in the Fade.

 

I'm going to make a few world states, one of which will have Anders dead and gone.  I'd like to see what Justice is like without Anders merged with him.  I'd also like to keep him alive, just to see what happens.  For the record, I'm not sure if the devs would allow players to kill Anders.  I could see some smartass players setting their world state for Anders to be alive, just so they could try to kill him again.

[Bigdoser]

What you can't defeat in the open you defeat with guile or  with numbers.

 

The history of Thedas already has a popular uprising of peasants defeating mages. Mages are powerful but they lack numbers and in the end they can be defeated full stop you can't argue otherwise because Bioware wrote it into their history that they were already defeated once.

Problem is that the numbers mean nothing considering the number of mages they sent to ostagar and the blight that discredits that argument. Why do you think duncan desperately wanted more mages? Since he knew they can easily turn the tide of the battles he says so himself. As duncan said its why gregoir refused since he knew that mages can unleash their full power on enemy and Duncan was counting on that hence why he wanted them.

 

The reason why chantries exalted marches are so successful is because of mages. The reason why Tevinter can keep pushing back the Qunari is again mages considering they are not large in number compared to normal warriors and normal people numbers is not a good argument I think plus towns folk don't have formal training or templar abilities what are they going to do? Plus towns folk using Guile? 

 

Heck in asunder a whole tavern had problems with three mages being there and was looking to fight them? I put my money on the mages considering the spells they are busting out in the same book.

 

I recall a rebelling peasant uprising in awakening was not difficult to put down at all. Actually it was rather easy. I say good luck to what ever group of people want to take on an army of mages if you are not a templar. 

[Bigdoser]

Ending hatred means the end of human nature. I saw we keep that Qun-esque thinking as far away from Thedas as possible. 

So trying to end a war through peaceful means through compromise and negotiation? Is a qun-esque form of thinking? Also trying to stop the spread of hatred? Is qun-esque? I recall the Arishok being a very hateful person to the Bas of the city and only shows respect to Hawke depending on your choices the only person worthy of respect. Since you are honest and deal with him straightly even if something wrong occurs. 

 

Anders fell into despair and blew up the temple because his manifesto did not work or trying to do things peacefully since none of it worked he believed there was no compromise and went to his final option I want to prove him wrong. 

[Gothfather]

 

The killing like Isabela's not returning if approval is not high enough doesn't count. The devs just want to give you more control over the story.

I've seen you raging around that Anders' short story is not canon while wiki and wot consider it as such. Regardless he doesn't drink blood, it splashes into his mouth, there is a difference. Not to mention that particular Templar who bled deserved so much worse.

Friend Anders has no blackouts.

Anything else? I'm sure you have more stretching in your sleeves so spill them out.

 

Sorry but Anders killing Ella does count you are trying to make a distiction because hawke can effct the outcome but narratively speaking hawke isn't responsible for the choice Anders or Isabela make as i clearly show in my post below.

Isabella Stole something but the Qunari are masters of their own actions. Isabella doesn't cause the Qunari to act as they do. Anders doesn't steal a book which cause other people to kill Ella in search of a book.

 

I think there is a vast differenace between isabela's actions and Anders actions. And isabela either helps or doesn't help based on her own motivations. Does she like you enough to try and resolve the issue? This shows that in the writing her character can grow, Anders doesn't grow as a character he devolves. Even with high friendship/romance all you can do give Anders comfort as he devolves which is required for the plot.

 

So while I take actions that have ripple effects on the world because of the mechanics of the game that still doesn't mean storywise all the actions anders takes make him inculpable. This allows me with consistancy to agree with the poster who says "At least Isabela.." because storywise Isabela did try to mediate a crisis. Anders idea of trying to resolve a crisis of his actions is to Blame it on the templars.

 

Just because events unfold based on a series of choices you made doesn't mean the characters doing said actions/events are not responsible for their actions storywise. For example...

 

Lets say In Inquisiton (Talking hypotheticals here not actual real game events) i have a choice to help save a carravan from bandits or a village and i pick the village because of X. The reason is not important. And lets say a young mage surivives and hears i saved a village over the carravan and he decides to Kill a  camp of Inquisition soldiers in vengence. Yes mechanically I caused the camp to be destroyed because of the choice I made BUT storywise it is perfectly acceptable for me to blame the mage because the mage made the choice.  If you don't view the events in the game from a story perspective than most of the game loses impact because everything that happens is your fault so you are better off turning the game off that way nothing bad happens because you set the mechanics in motion. I much rather view a story based RPG on the actions the characters make then view them through the lens of well me the player did x which means y character did Z. So i caused Z.

[Edit] It not a very engaging story if I view every event based on which mechanics i triggered to cause said event and it doesn't actually change the intent of the story. The intent of the story is for Anders to kill Ella it is why the mechanics that stop it are much higher than Isabela's. Granted if you stop the event its a valid result to the story but that result doesn't negate other results people get.

 

Anders is a tragically flawed human who we watch slide into evil that is the whole point of his story. To watch a person fighting for a cause become so twisted by hatred that he becomes the evil he claims is found in his enemy, Or if you are pro mage... To watch a person fighting for a just cause become so twisted by hatred that he becomes the evil he hates.

[Br3admax]

So trying to end a war through peaceful means through compromise and negotiation? Is a qun-esque form of thinking? Also trying to stop the spread of hatred? Is qun-esque? I recall the Arishok being a very hateful person to the Bas of the city and only shows respect to Hawke depending on your choices the only person worthy of respect. Since you are honest and deal with him straightly even if something wrong occurs. 

 

Anders fell into despair and blew up the temple because his manifesto did not work or trying to do things peacefully since none of it worked he believed there was no compromise and went to his final option I want to prove him wrong. 

You know, after thousands of years of recorded history and millions of years of existing, I think if such a thing were possible, it would have happened by now. Thedas is no different.