1260 réponses à ce sujet

[SmilesJA]

*cough*Freedom fighter*cough* 

 

That is correct. 

[Hazegurl]

Anders isn't guileless, but I don't think he's very good at lying, or at subtle manipulation; he's much too open-hearted and zealous for it. He can use brute-force emotional blackmail, but I seriously don't think that he has the inclination or ability to lead Hawke on to that extent.

Yet he pretty much does. He lies about the potion, if you press him he deflects with jokes so he at least can manipulate Hawke into helping him gather the ingredients. He further tries to manipulate Hawke unless your Hawke begins to seriously question him, it's only then that he turns to outright blackmail because he has no other options. If we step back even further, he tries to manipulate Hawke into making him believe he is in danger of both the Templars and Grey Wardens, both claims are false. If you romance him he immediately tries to move in, mind you after constantly reminding Hawke during earlier talks that he has to eventually leave his shop.  Yes, Anders does know how to be subtle when he needs to be.  But we'll never see eye to eye about this character. I hate him more than Liara so that says something. lol!

[Eudaemonium]

Yet he pretty much does. He lies about the potion, if you press him he deflects with jokes so he at least can manipulate Hawke into helping him gather the ingredients. He further tries to manipulate Hawke unless your Hawke begins to seriously question him, it's only then that he turns to outright blackmail because he has no other options. If we step back even further, he tries to manipulate Hawke into making him believe he is in danger of both the Templars and Grey Wardens, both claims are false. If you romance him he immediately tries to move in, mind you after constantly reminding Hawke during earlier talks that he has to eventually leave his shop.  Yes, Anders does know how to be subtle when he needs to be.  But we'll never see eye to eye about this character. I hate him more than Liara so that says something. lol!

 

 

Xil's point wasn't that Anders doesn't lie, it was that he's really, really bad at it. It was obvious throughout all of 'Justice' that something was severely amiss. You might not know why or what about, but it's clear that Anders is not telling you the truth.

[Terodil]

Well, that would come when he says "This is worse than I imagined" after The Last Straw starts.

 

Anders isn't guileless, but I don't think he's very good at lying, or at subtle manipulation; he's much too open-hearted and zealous for it. He can use brute-force emotional blackmail, but I seriously don't think that he has the inclination or ability to lead Hawke on to that extent.

 

1. "This is worse than I imagined" -- that's not remorse at all. That's him shocked at the totally predictable -- and may I say so, intended -- outcome of his mass-murder, i.e. civil war. It's what every glorious revolutionary leader goes through when they put their shiny theories into practice and suddenly realise that the price is paid in copious amounts of blood. It's also the turning point that leads most of them to their personal conviction that life is cheap and that sacrifices are required.

 

2. Anders may not be, Vengeance is. The Anders of DA:A would not have been capable of it, I agree there, but the abomination that Anders has become by Act 3 demonstrably has no qualms about misleading, lying, and killing at all. (Edit: Okay, Eudaemonium's clarification makes sense -- you may have a point about him being bad at it, but eh... practice makes perfect, right?)

 

@Hazegurl: I hate Anders, but I reasonably like Liara in ME (besides minor issues, such as character development off-screen). What's the issue?

[Elite Midget]

I don't care if he shows up in some saves as he did start the whole conflict, or at least gave the conflict a reason to "explode".

 

Personally, I killed him in my canon file and that's the file that I'll be importing, via keep, into DA:I.

[SmilesJA]

1. "This is worse than I imagined" -- that's not remorse at all. That's him shocked at the totally predictable -- and may I say so, intended -- outcome of his mass-murder, i.e. civil war. It's what every glorious revolutionary leader goes through when they put their shiny theories into practice and suddenly realise that the price is paid in copious amounts of blood. It's also the turning point that leads most of them to their personal conviction that life is cheap and that sacrifices are required.

 

 

 

Anders never saw himself as revolutionary leader, he just wanted to instigate a war. Personally I felt Anders was more compelling than Liara but that's just me. 

[Lulupab]

A. Anders so blatantly and clearly says that he should die for what he has done and Justice is required of him. If they wanted to make an example for remorse in dictionary this would be it. He claims he fights for Justice but doesn't discriminate or be a hypocrite when its his turn to face it. So yes he does feel remorse and keeping him alive is sort of a poetic Justice, kinda confirmed by his writer. Just because he talks about battle in heat of disaster doesn't mean he doesn't have remorse.

 

B. The Templars are all over Anders in act I and II. He is protected by Varric and refugees of Darktown and possibly Hawke as well. Grey Wardens are probably looking for him too the thing is there is no Grey Warden camp in Kirkwall.

 

C. People like Haze are talking about what Anders says when he is either rival or his approval is in the middle. Friend Anders is much better when we are talking about "road to recovery".

[Eudaemonium]

Anders never saw himself as revolutionary leader, he just wanted to instigate a war. Personally I felt Anders was more compelling than Liara but that's just me. 

 

Well, Anders was designed to be deliberately polarising. Liara is just a character type people can dislike or not.

[Terodil]

A. Anders so blatantly and clearly says that he should die for what he has done and Justice is required of him. If they wanted to make an example for remorse in dictionary this would be it. He claims he fights for Justice but doesn't discriminate or be a hypocrite when its his turn to face it. So yes he does feel remorse and keeping him alive is sort of a poetic Justice, kinda confirmed by his writer. Just because he talks about battle in heat of disaster doesn't mean he doesn't have remorse.

 

B. The Templars are all over Anders in act I and II. He is protected by Varric and refugees of Darktown and possibly Hawke as well. Grey Wardens are probably looking for him too the thing is there is no Grey Warden camp in Kirkwall.

 

C. People like Haze are talking about what Anders says when he is either rival or his approval is in the middle. Friend Anders is much better when we are talking about "road to recovery".

 

A. You keep saying that his willingness to "pay the price" is remorse. It's not, it's 100% in Vengeance's playing field. An eye for an eye, a death for a death, Vengeance gets a kick out of Anders being executed on the spot (what's worse, without a trial). It would be a prime example of Vengeance, and corroborate his claim that mages are only ever victims, never perpetrators.

 

B. So what? He is an apostate that has fled at least 8 times from being apprehended by templars, killing most of them in the process. I don't know where you want to go with this.

 

C. No he isn't. He is just "nicer" about killing everybody. As I said above, he loses his humanity at a slower speed on the friendship path than on the rivalry path, but he ends up a demon with a sprinkling of Anders in any case.

[Eudaemonium]

As I said above, he loses his humanity at a slower speed on the friendship path than on the rivalry path...

 

I'd almost argue that it's the opposite. On the rivalry path the differences between Justice/Vengeance and Anders become highlighted more and more—there is a greater display of the differences between his still-present humanity and the entity that lives inside him. On the friendship path you could argue that he actually loses his humanity faster in that the two entities essentially combine to the point at which Anders' individual humanity becomes effaced entirely. Or at least substantively indistinguishable from his inhumanity.

[Lulupab]

A. You keep saying that his willingness to "pay the price" is remorse. It's not, it's 100% in Vengeance's playing field. An eye for an eye, a death for a death, Vengeance gets a kick out of Anders being executed on the spot (what's worse, without a trial). It would be a prime example of Vengeance, and corroborate his claim that mages are only ever victims, never perpetrators.
 
B. So what? He is an apostate that has fled at least 8 times from being apprehended by templars, killing most of them in the process. I don't know where you want to go with this.
 
C. No he isn't. He is just "nicer" about killing everybody. As I said above, he loses his humanity at a slower speed on the friendship path than on the rivalry path, but he ends up a demon with a sprinkling of Anders in any case.

A. HA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! A trial for a mage? In Kirkwall? Tell me you are joking please because I did have a good laugh. There really is no "Justice" system in Thedas, specially when it comes to mages. Its literally "systematical Vengeance" when it comes to mages. You harmed someone? Branded malificatum, death sentence. No questions asked. So Anders wants Thedosian Justice which isn't really any different from Vengeance.

B. It was mostly an Answer to Haze and no Anders hasn't killed any Templars before merging with Justice. He just got superbly lucky and had friends in right places.

C. So you claim. Anders' decisions is not affected by Justice other than the fact that they have merged and their ideals have become as no side resisted. He has planned the chantry incident himself and ultimately Anders and his deeds are all a part of him like any human. Ultimately his mistakes and deeds does not make him any less human than the next person. He is not the most stable person yes but he is still fine compared to Kirkwall. But "he is not slowing losing his humanity", he has changed but that's about it. Are you sure you know what "humanity" means? Anders is perfect example of complicated humanity but claiming he is losings is just plain wrong.

[Hazegurl]

@Terodil, My issue with her character is what BW tends to do with characters they themselves view as wonderful. They sort of take away player choice and you're almost forced to be their friend, have feelings for them et al. I like to rp however I like within the game not the way BW says I should. So, that's why I've never taken to Liara or Garrus and in some ways Varric. I also didn't care for Tallis for the same reason.  But I don't hate any of them as much as I hate Anders and I hate him purely based on his own character and nothing BW did.

 

@lulu, Right, I had him rivaled at 100% so I don't know if he says anything differently on the friend path but I agree with Terodil, he's simply nicer about what he does on the friend path.

[Lulupab]

@lulu, Right, I had him rivaled at 100% so I don't know if he says anything differently on the friend path but I agree with Terodil, he's simply nicer about what he does on the friend path.

I don't know what that means, "nicer"?. In friendship he isn't any less human though and he is much more in control. As codex states a friend Anders is in full control and losing himself only when fighting Templars. Like any person his deeds and mistakes makes him a human and since he is not enforced to do all that by Justice and its his own will it simply makes his humanity grey and complicated.

[Hazegurl]

So it means that Anders is a mass murdering a** whether he's in Justice mode or as himself....Not seeing how that's different. Oh yeah, it isn't.

[Eudaemonium]

@Terodil, My issue with her character is what BW tends to do with characters they themselves view as wonderful. They sort of take away player choice and you're almost forced to be their friend, have feelings for them et al. I like to rp however I like within the game not the way BW says I should. So, that's why I've never taken to Liara or Garrus and in some ways Varric. I also didn't care for Tallis for the same reason.  But I don't hate any of them as much as I hate Anders and I hate him purely based on his own character and nothing BW did.

 

@lulu, Right, I had him rivaled at 100% so I don't know if he says anything differently on the friend path but I agree with Terodil, he's simply nicer about what he does on the friend path.

 

Anders is a pretty radically different character on the rival path than on the friend path. The very fact that you can get rival!Anders to side with the Templars kinda says a lot about it. I guess if you boil it down it's kinda like this (re: Chantry):

 

Friend: "I have done a terrible deed for a good cause that I believe in." No dissonance with Justice. Thanks to Hawke's support, Anders is now committed both to himself and to his cause. This is kind of the 'for the greater good' path.

 

Rival: Anders made a mistake in merging with Justice, and Hawke's antagonism makes him doubt himself and his cause, leading to greater and greater conflict with Justice as the two's goals begin to diverge more and more. Ultimately Justice begins forcibly seizing control of his body, and destroys the Chantry.

 

Another difference comes in Anders' reasoning for asking you to kill him, or at least the implications of it. As a friend, he asks you to do it because he believes it will give some justice to those he just killed. It's very lex talons, "eye for an eye" stuff. If read unfavourably, you could say that he's trying to become a martyr, but I doubt it's his primary goal (it would be much better if he were struck down by Meredith to the Templars, and not by the close friend or lover he potentially betrayed). As a rival, Anders doesn't believe in the justice or necessity of the deed, and asks you to kill him because he's become a dangerous abomination who cannot control his own actions.

 

I think this difference is important, because by both sparing Anders and fighting for the mages, the friendship path (regardless of Hawke's intentions) would make Anders comprehend it as belief in/justification of his action. His psychological integrity has essentially been built through his relationship with Hawke. Thus it makes sense that he'd focus on Hawke being a leader rather than on his remorse once the conflict is underway.

[Lulupab]

So it means that Anders is a mass murdering a** whether he's in Justice mode or as himself....Not seeing how that's different. Oh yeah, it isn't.

You are free to call him those things but as I said it doesn't make him any less human, the friendship path anyway. He is a human who have killed those people. I was challenging the idea of him not being human anymore in friendship path, I was not saying its different. However for this very reason after sparing him he seems more remorseful in friendship path also he is hopeful of victory and Hawke's leadership with outgrows the remorse. Hope is something he never feels for the entire game. Those are nice signs, while they don't excuse his action it shows that a spared Anders is not a lost cause, on the contrary if anyone wants the slight chance to help him making him a friend and sparing him is the only way. And no "mercy killing" is not helping.

Also whatever Anders is he has proven himself useful and I rather use him like I did Loghain. He turned out perfectly after sparing him in Awakening.

[Terodil]

I'd almost argue that it's the opposite. On the rivalry path the differences between Justice/Vengeance and Anders become highlighted more and more—there is a greater display of the differences between his still-present humanity and the entity that lives inside him. On the friendship path you could argue that he actually loses his humanity faster in that the two entities essentially combine to the point at which Anders' individual humanity becomes effaced entirely. Or at least substantively indistinguishable from his inhumanity.

That is a very good point. Considering that "friendship path" with Anders means that you enable his terrorist tendencies, whereas the "rivalry path" means that you call him out for his behaviour, your interpretation makes a lot of sense. Ho-hum, I'll ponder this some more.
 

A. HA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! A trial for a mage? In Kirkwall? Tell me you are joking please because I did have a good laugh.

I was not joking, and neither is Vengeance. You missed my point that Vengeance would LOVE for Hawke to execute Anders/Vengeance, even more so because there would be no trial.

 

C. So you claim. Anders' decisions is not affected by Justice other than the fact that they have merged and their ideals have become as no side resisted. He has planned the chantry incident himself and ultimately Anders and his deeds are all a part of him like any human. Ultimately his mistakes and deeds does not make him any less human than the next person. He is not the most stable person yes but he is still fine compared to Kirkwall. But "he is not slowing losing his humanity", he has changed but that's about it. Are you sure you know what "humanity" means? Anders is perfect example of complicated humanity but claiming he is losings is just plain wrong.

Eh... are we playing the same game? Are you telling me that glowy angry demon thing is HUMAN? Seriously? Anders is no longer human, inject "only" if you wish, but to say that he is just a complicated example of humanity goes against everything established in DA so far regarding demons, possession, and abominations. Unless, of course, you consider everything allegorical, in which case we can stop having this discussion right now.
 

You are free to call him those things but as I said it doesn't make him any less human, the friendship path anyway. He is a human who have killed those people. I was challenging the idea of him not being human anymore in friendship path, I was not saying its different. However for this very reason after sparing him he seems more remorseful in friendship path also he is hopeful of victory and Hawke's leadership with outgrows the remorse. Hope is something he never feels for the entire game. Those are nice signs, while they don't excuse his action it shows that a spared Anders is not a lost cause, on the contrary if anyone wants the slight chance to help him making him a friend and sparing him is the only way. And no "mercy killing" is not helping.

We can debate if it's "less human" or "more than human", but it's definitely not human.

Also, I think we'll have to disagree on the assessment of his bombing. I cannot see how hope replacing alleged remorse over killing thousands of innocents, is "a nice sign". And considering that he neither wants, nor can (supposedly) be split from Vengeance, he is a lost cause. Also... "mercy killing is not helping"... the question is: helping who? Anders? maybe, maybe not, depending on Anders even being in a position to decide (remember him saying that he would want to be killed if he lost everything due to being made tranquil? I'd argue that his current state is not much different). But I think a responsible Hawke would have to worry about helping everybody else. Letting Anders run around loose is as far of an opposite of "helping" as it gets.

Also, for the record, you are simply wrong about Anders not killing any templars before being possessed. He is already standing over a smoking heap of templar corpses at the start of DA:A.



I don't want to make too much of it, but I did just stumble over his apparent delight over "the funny gurgling sound" the templars made as they died. Considering what happens later what I originally thought an attempt at humorously deflecting the horror of the situation suddenly takes on a very dark (read: sour yellow) note.

[Lulupab]

That is a very good point. Considering that "friendship path" with Anders means that you enable his terrorist tendencies, whereas the "rivalry path" means that you call him out for his behaviour, your interpretation makes a lot of sense. Ho-hum, I'll ponder this some more.
 
I was not joking, and neither is Vengeance. You missed my point that Vengeance would LOVE for Hawke to execute Anders/Vengeance, even more so because there would be no trial.

 
Eh... are we playing the same game? Are you telling me that glowy angry demon thing is HUMAN? Seriously? Anders is no longer human, inject "only" if you wish, but to say that he is just a complicated example of humanity goes against everything established in DA so far regarding demons, possession, and abominations. Unless, of course, you consider everything allegorical, in which case we can stop having this discussion right now.
 
We can debate if it's "less human" or "more than human", but it's definitely not human.

Also, I think we'll have to disagree on the assessment of his bombing. I cannot see how hope replacing alleged remorse over killing thousands of innocents, is "a nice sign". And considering that he neither wants, nor can (supposedly) be split from Vengeance, he is a lost cause. Also... "mercy killing is not helping"... the question is: helping who? Anders? maybe, maybe not, depending on Anders even being in a position to decide (remember him saying that he would want to be killed if he lost everything due to being made tranquil? I'd argue that his current state is not much different). But I think a responsible Hawke would have to worry about helping everybody else. Letting Anders run around loose is as far of an opposite of "helping" as it gets.

Also, for the record, you are simply wrong about Anders not killing any templars before being possessed. He is already standing over a smoking heap of templar corpses at the start of DA:A

How many examples of spirits possession do we know of? Your conclusion of calling Anders just an abomination and nothing more is very wrong. He is only a technical abomination, retaining most of his humanity unlike normal abominations. He has feelings like any human and many other things like a human.

Also Vengeance is not a permanent state. Justice is affected by Anders' anger, more so when Anders is furious. That glowing Anders who is absolutely enraged is only a temporary state which always requires Anders to be so much angry that he loses himself to it. If not in that state, Justice is not different than his awakening form. Able to express himself though Anders such as telling him not to get drunk anymore or not to get obsessed with Hawke if romanced, that is Justice talking. In the fade that spirit is Justice and he is not in his Vengeance form. He is exactly the Justice we know from Awakening, doing everything in its power to uphold his name.

What is established in DA? It is established if the host retains his humanity and not driven by malice and hunger for power and similar motives like all the other abominations then its still human, be it complicated or no. Anders does the things he does because he wants to do them, like any human. And we are talking about a friend Anders here since earlier I was talking about sparing a friend Anders.

 

He is not any less human than Loghain, Anders himself never questioned that what he did was wrong. He fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. What he understood is that it wasn't about right or wrong, it was about necessity ( in his view). He believed that the system of imprisoning mages within Circles, under the watch of the Chantry's templars, was wrong, and would accept nothing less than overthrowing that system. And with that, he understood that unless someone was willing to take drastic measures, then nothing ever would change. He knew that the templars would rise against mages everywhere for his action, and that therefore all the mages locked within Circle towers would be forced to rise up against the templars in order to save themselves. By his actions, no mages would be able to take, say, Wynne's position that the templars and Circles are necessary, except for those mages who hated their own magic and wanted to embrace imprisonment or even suicide. They would have to either submit to templar tyranny, or fight to save their own lives. By extension, he removed any stalemate--"there can be no compromise"--in the name of ending an indisputably broken system that served no one.

 

 

Oh and its never proven Anders killed those Templars, according to his codex Anders hasn't killed anyone and harmed anyone and added by First Enchanter's good word, Anders is never branded a Maleficar. It could be darkspawn. You could argue Anders didn't help until the darkspawn killed the Templars then he killed the Darkspawn but that would b a theory not a fact.

 

[Terodil]

He is not any less human than Loghain

Sorry, but I think I'm done with this discussion. Equating Anders, a human possessed and in no small part influenced by a demon, to Loghain, a human, arguably with bad decision making, just shows that you are denying the most basic of facts.

Anders is no longer Anders the human. Anders is now an abomination (= a synthesis of a human and a demon), and you never know where Anders ends and Justice/Vengeance begins.

[Lulupab]

Sorry, but I think I'm done with this discussion. Equating Anders, a human possessed and in no small part influenced by a demon, to Loghain, a human, arguably with bad decision making, just shows that you are denying the most basic of facts.

Anders is no longer Anders the human. Anders is now an abomination (= a synthesis of a human and a demon), and you never know where Anders ends and Justice/Vengeance begins.

 

Retaining one's humanity has nothing to with actually being a human. Elves and Dwarves can have "humanity" too. You are looking at it in a technical way. I look at the way he acts while you blindly look at him as an abomination which is oversimplification at best. Technically Anders was is no more abomination than Wynne.

 

Anders was meant to be complicated, I'm sorry you never understood this and you probably never will.

[Terodil]

Retaining one's humanity has nothing to with actually being a human. Elves and Dwarves can have "humanity" too. You are looking at it in a technical way. I look at the way he acts while you blindly look at him as an abomination which is oversimplification at best. Technically Anders was is no more abomination than Wynne.

 

Anders was meant to be complicated, I'm sorry you never understood this and you probably never will.

 

Did you really just imply I was too stupid to understand Anders in his complexity? Well played.

 

Nobody, least of all me, claimed that elves or dwarves are any less "human" (in the ethical sense of the concept of humanity) than humans. Your contributions to this thread are not only degenerating into ad hominem insults now but also silly strawman arguments. I never equated Anders and Wynne, precisely because I never considered possession a technicality only. There's a huge difference between blind Vengeance and Faith (as would be between Faith and Zealotry, if that is the corresponding counterpart that Vengeance is to Justice).

 

I really am done arguing with you.

[Lulupab]

Did you really just imply I was too stupid to understand Anders in his complexity? Well played.
 
Nobody, least of all me, claimed that elves or dwarves are any less "human" (in the ethical sense of the concept of humanity) than humans. Your contributions to this thread are not only degenerating into ad hominem insults now but also silly strawman arguments. I never equated Anders and Wynne, particularly because I never considered possession it a technicality only. There's a huge difference between Vengeance and Hope.
 
I really am done arguing with you.

 
You ignored my whole elaboration of Anders' problem and nitpicked at Loghain, it was your fault to begin with.
 
You base your argument on Anders being half spirit so he cannot be human and its wrong based on your conclusion of what Abomination and spirits means which again comes back to that being your opinion, not a fact. If you said I think, guess. speculate etc... I would have understood but this is argument and you cannot shove it as a fact. If you want to challenge it then answer my main post instead of nitpicking
 

How many examples of spirits possession do we know of? Your conclusion of calling Anders just an abomination and nothing more is very wrong. He is only a technical abomination, retaining most of his humanity unlike normal abominations. He has feelings like any human and many other things like a human.
Also Vengeance is not a permanent state. Justice is affected by Anders' anger, more so when Anders is furious. That glowing Anders who is absolutely enraged is only a temporary state which always requires Anders to be so much angry that he loses himself to it. If not in that state, Justice is not different than his awakening form. Able to express himself though Anders such as telling him not to get drunk anymore or not to get obsessed with Hawke if romanced, that is Justice talking. In the fade that spirit is Justice and he is not in his Vengeance form. He is exactly the Justice we know from Awakening, doing everything in its power to uphold his name.
What is established in DA? It is established if the host retains his humanity and not driven by malice and hunger for power and similar motives like all the other abominations then its still human, be it complicated or no. Anders does the things he does because he wants to do them, like any human. And we are talking about a friend Anders here since earlier I was talking about sparing a friend Anders.
 
He is not any less human than Loghain, Anders himself never questioned that what he did was wrong. He fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. What he understood is that it wasn't about right or wrong, it was about necessity ( in his view). He believed that the system of imprisoning mages within Circles, under the watch of the Chantry's templars, was wrong, and would accept nothing less than overthrowing that system. And with that, he understood that unless someone was willing to take drastic measures, then nothing ever would change. He knew that the templars would rise against mages everywhere for his action, and that therefore all the mages locked within Circle towers would be forced to rise up against the templars in order to save themselves. By his actions, no mages would be able to take, say, Wynne's position that the templars and Circles are necessary, except for those mages who hated their own magic and wanted to embrace imprisonment or even suicide. They would have to either submit to templar tyranny, or fight to save their own lives. By extension, he removed any stalemate--"there can be no compromise"--in the name of ending an indisputably broken system that served no one.
 
 
Oh and its never proven Anders killed those Templars, according to his codex Anders hasn't killed anyone and harmed anyone and added by First Enchanter's good word, Anders is never branded a Maleficar. It could be darkspawn. You could argue Anders didn't help until the darkspawn killed the Templars then he killed the Darkspawn but that would b a theory not a fact.

Anders has his lost himself moments but for the most part, specially in friendship path he retains his humanity. By very definition of the word an Abomination cannot fall in love, heal others or care for anything else but its personal gains, its simply its very nature. On the contrary what Anders did was singing his own death song and even if it was self righteous it was ultimately selfless. Your trivializing of Anders condition as mere abomination and oversimplification of his personality is a fallacy because it gives you a high horse riding personality that casts judgement on what is white and what is black. FYI Wynne fully slips when she gets angry at the end so that means she was fully an abomination of pride in disguise because she slipped once, based on your argument anyway.

[Br3admax]

We're saying a lot of things that have no fact bases. The only thing I remotely remember even agreeing with this is an offhanded comment from the Warden. And Wynne obviously isn't an abomination if she can separate the spirit she had from her body. Anders can't. 

[Lumix19]

We're saying a lot of things that have no fact bases. The only thing I remotely remember even agreeing with this is an offhanded comment from the Warden. And Wynne obviously isn't an abomination if she can separate the spirit she had from her body. Anders can't. 

I would suggest that for precisely that reason Wynne is an abomination. Abominations are spirits possessing bodies but as with Connor and Pharamond they can be separated. Anders is not an abomination because Justice/Vengeance can't be separated from him, indeed I believe at the end of DA2 Anders states that he invited Justice into his soul and merged with him. That goes far beyond being an abomination but rather suggests that Anders was some sort of new hybrid entity.

[Lulupab]

We're saying a lot of things that have no fact bases. The only thing I remotely remember even agreeing with this is an offhanded comment from the Warden. And Wynne obviously isn't an abomination if she can separate the spirit she had from her body. Anders can't.

Gaider have said Anders' merger with Justice was a very rare condition because Justice was trapped outside of the fade therefore Anders' merger is the truest merger possible on Thedas where a fade entity fully becomes one with a human host as he doesn't exist in the fade like other entities. That is why there is a complication. Justice is only Vengeance when Anders is furious. Just like Anders is no longer himself when angry, same applies to Justice as well. Its Justice who tells Anders to stop drinking or not get obsessed with Hawke if romanced, he can express himself through Anders. He becomes Vengeance on occasions when Anders' anger which is what affected Justice in the first place consumes him. We know for a fact the relationship between magic and emotion and how it affects spirits. I think there was some paragraph about Rivaini seers who always remain calm and in harmony with themselves for this very reason.

 

And in case of Wynne, she was kept alive by the spirit and once the host dies the spirit is free which is what happened with Wynne. Its also one of the signs that faith is quite powerful as such magic is impossible without the aid of a powerful spirit no matter how much blood sacrifices you make. They may extend a life but once dead its over. You can only come back as an undead.

 

Also Wynne was a normal abomination, meaning faith was still in the fade while manifesting inside Wynne as well.