Ah, this is very interesting, I didn't know about Justice and Anders being a true merge.
But then, I am not sure that confirms Anders is Anders anymore. If anything, he seems way more far gone even in his "normal" state than Wynne who pretty much was completely Wynne all the time. Though one could argue that we never knew who was Wynne before, so we cannot make any comparison.
Merge does seem to imply that his body and mind changed too though, and that he is a new entity.
Ah, this is very interesting, I didn't know about Justice and Anders being a true merge.
But then, I am not sure that confirms Anders is Anders anymore. If anything, he seems way more far gone even in his "normal" state than Wynne who pretty much was completely Wynne all the time. Though one could argue that we never knew who was Wynne before, so we cannot make any comparison.
Merge does seem to imply that his body and mind changed too though, and that he is a new entity.
Again the "change" is drastically different in rivalry and friendship path. Anders resists change on rivalry and things get out of hand. On friendship however he accepts the merger and he is changed, that much is certain as he himself says I can no more ignore the condition of mages than he (Justice) could. But even so he can still joke about stuff even in act 3 or doing other humany things. Its definitely a healthier personality compared to rivalry because at least as codex states Anders is able to pretty much control the spirit within. These are all what makes him interesting and complicated and a good character in an RPG based on dark fantasy and characters.
Ah, this is very interesting, I didn't know about Justice and Anders being a true merge.
But then, I am not sure that confirms Anders is Anders anymore. If anything, he seems way more far gone even in his "normal" state than Wynne who pretty much was completely Wynne all the time. Though one could argue that we never knew who was Wynne before, so we cannot make any comparison.
Merge does seem to imply that his body and mind changed too though, and that he is a new entity.
That does seem to be the implication. The merger may have pushed Anders' drive for justice to the extreme. Indeed in Awakenings there some suggestions that Justice was already thinking about the plight of the mages and encouraging Anders to actually do something about it:
Again the "change" is drastically different in rivalry and friendship path. Anders resists change on rivalry and things get out of hand. On friendship however he accepts the merger and he is changed, that much is certain as he himself says I can no more ignore the condition of mages than he (Justice) could. But even so he can still joke about stuff even in act 3 or doing other humany things. Its definitely a healthier personality compared to rivalry because at least as codex states Anders is able to pretty much control the spirit within. These are all what makes him interesting and complicated and a good character in an RPG based on dark fantasy and characters.
I am not sure the merge is really different, I get the feeling that his own view on the merge is different. Both in friendship and rivalry, he starts his clinic, he stops drinking, he fights for mages, etc. The difference is more about his selfdoubt. I think Eudaemonium's analysis in the precedent page is spot on. In a way, he is more lost to Justice/Vengeance because he's being told by the person he loves that it's somewhat ok.
I would have to disagree on the friendship path being healthier. Enabling his obsession does not make him healthier, it just makes him happier.
@Lumix: Argh, that was the Anders I loved haha. And it really shows how Justice, like any other fade spirit, does not comprehend the mortal world. Both spirits and demons seem to deal in absolute and nuance is lost on them.
That is a very good point. Considering that "friendship path" with Anders means that you enable his terrorist tendencies, whereas the "rivalry path" means that you call him out for his behaviour, your interpretation makes a lot of sense. Ho-hum, I'll ponder this some more.
It's not as though Anders does anything terroristic until The Last Straw itself, and it's never brought up before then. Saying that you enable him as a friend is simply inaccurate.
It's not as though Anders does anything terroristic until The Last Straw itself, and it's never brought up before then. Saying that you enable him as a friend is simply inaccurate.
Well, he does plant the bomb itself in the Chantry during Justice. But yes.
I am not sure the merge is really different, I get the feeling that his own view on the merge is different. Both in friendship and rivalry, he starts his clinic, he stops drinking, he fights for mages, etc. The difference is more about his selfdoubt. I think Eudaemonium's analysis in the precedent page is spot on. In a way, he is more lost to Justice/Vengeance because he's being told by the person he loves that it's somewhat ok.
I would have to disagree on the friendship path being healthier. Enabling his obsession does not make him healthier, it just makes him happier.
@Lumix: Argh, that was the Anders I loved haha. And it really shows how Justice, like any other fade spirit, does not comprehend the mortal world. Both spirits and demons seem to deal in absolute and nuance is lost on them.
I fully agree with this. Anders for all his rebelliousness doesn't seem to understand that, he's trapped by the Circle's perspective seeing demons as the embodiments of "sins" and spirits as some angel-like figure. As Merill aptly puts:
I am not sure the merge is really different, I get the feeling that his own view on the merge is different. Both in friendship and rivalry, he starts his clinic, he stops drinking, he fights for mages, etc. The difference is more about his selfdoubt. I think Eudaemonium's analysis in the precedent page is spot on. In a way, he is more lost to Justice/Vengeance because he's being told by the person he loves that it's somewhat ok.
I would have to disagree on the friendship path being healthier. Enabling his obsession does not make him healthier, it just makes him happier.
@Lumix: Argh, that was the Anders I loved haha. And it really shows how Justice, like any other fade spirit, does not comprehend the mortal world. Both spirits and demons seem to deal in absolute and nuance is lost on them.
I think "lost" is too harsh, he is merely synced with Justice, rather quickly but healthier than rivalry. Which is why its safer to spare a friend Anders as he is already undertaken all the change possible and won't deteriorate. For better or worse he is in harmony with Justice.
It's not as though Anders does anything terroristic until The Last Straw itself, and it's never brought up before then. Saying that you enable him as a friend is simply inaccurate.
Fixed.I think "lost" is too harsh, he is merely synced with Justice and Vengeance [...] Which is why its safer to spare a friend Anders as he is already undertaken all the change possible and won't deteriorate any more than he already has. For better or worse he is in harmony with Justice and Vengeance.
Interesting, you are right. I just (quickly) checked the wiki-Anders-Approval page and my memory differs from what's listed there. Very few conversation points that support his world view actually yield approval rating.
(Reading that page again I just find it ironic how vindictive and condemning Anders behaves towards Merril while at the same time failing to see how he himself is sliding down a far worse ramp. I want an option to "<Star> <Slap him> Wake up Anders, just for a moment, THINK!")
Fixed.
How letting a loose cannon run around who sees everything in black and white (i.e., has an inhuman world view that leads to ludicrous conclusions) and has no qualms about sacrificing hundreds on the altar of his beliefs is safer for the rest of the world... I will never understand. Your continued attempts to whitewash him by reducing the spirit cohabitating him to "Justice" and by conveniently throwing "Vengeance" out of the window speaks volumes and never fails to amaze me.
Because Vengeance's very existence requires an angry Anders. That entity in the fade who wants to help Feynriel is not Vengeance, its Justice. I will have to repeat the paragraph again but you have the annoying habit of ignoring previous posts which elaborate the ones you are arguing over.
Gaider have said Anders' merger with Justice was a very rare condition because Justice was trapped outside of the fade therefore Anders' merger is the truest merger possible on Thedas where a fade entity fully becomes one with a human host as he doesn't exist in the fade like other entities. That is why there is a complication. Justice is only Vengeance when Anders is furious. Just like Anders is no longer himself when angry, same applies to Justice as well. Its Justice who tells Anders to stop drinking or not get obsessed with Hawke if romanced, he can express himself through Anders. He becomes Vengeance on occasions when Anders' anger which is what affected Justice in the first place consumes him. We know for a fact the relationship between magic and emotion and how it affects spirits. I think there was some paragraph about Rivaini seers who always remain calm and in harmony with themselves for this very reason.
Many other characters did horrible stuff too, Loghian sold elves to slavery, promised freedom for circles which started the Uldred mess, sent Jowan to poison the arl etc... no matter how inhuman you think his actions were he was as human as the next person. It doesn't take a spirit to do something like that and by default Anders syncing with a spirit doesn't make him any more inhuman. I'm not questioning what Anders did, I'm questioning your futile attempt to show him as less human while he is humanity and its complication at its peak. FYI pride demons are made in a way to resemble humanity and its faults and can always outsmart humans because they are made in man's image. Don't think even for a second that humanity in Thedas is some sort of sainthood and Anders is just a small part of a huge grey and complicated moralities and human ideals.
I would suggest that for precisely that reason Wynne is an abomination. Abominations are spirits possessing bodies but as with Connor and Pharamond they can be separated. Anders is not an abomination because Justice/Vengeance can't be separated from him, indeed I believe at the end of DA2 Anders states that he invited Justice into his soul and merged with him. That goes far beyond being an abomination but rather suggests that Anders was some sort of new hybrid entity.
Abominations aren't spirits possessing bodies. What are you talking about? Abominations are demons/spirits taking control over a mage's body and merging their power with the mage's.
Gaider have said Anders' merger with Justice was a very rare condition because Justice was trapped outside of the fade therefore Anders' merger is the truest merger possible on Thedas where a fade entity fully becomes one with a human host as he doesn't exist in the fade like other entities. That is why there is a complication. Justice is only Vengeance when Anders is furious. Just like Anders is no longer himself when angry, same applies to Justice as well. Its Justice who tells Anders to stop drinking or not get obsessed with Hawke if romanced, he can express himself through Anders. He becomes Vengeance on occasions when Anders' anger which is what affected Justice in the first place consumes him. We know for a fact the relationship between magic and emotion and how it affects spirits. I think there was some paragraph about Rivaini seers who always remain calm and in harmony with themselves for this very reason.
That's because Anders didn't become Justice. They both became two different beings. However over the course of the story, it becomes increasingly obvious that the Anders part of of this duo is becoming significantly less apparent. You can say, "100% friendship" until you're blue in the face, but even then, Anders has trouble controlling his own body. That's an abomination. And Rivani seers become abominations all the time. They just treat it as another part of nature.
And in case of Wynne, she was kept alive by the spirit and once the host dies the spirit is free which is what happened with Wynne. Its also one of the signs that faith is quite powerful as such magic is impossible without the aid of a powerful spirit no matter how much blood sacrifices you make. They may extend a life but once dead its over. You can only come back as an undead.
Really had nothing to do with my point at all.
Also Wynne was a normal abomination, meaning faith was still in the fade while manifesting inside Wynne as well.
All the demons in the Circle tower. All the abominations in Kirkwall. Literally every abomination we've ever seen besides Connor, has the demon outside the Fade. That's clearly not the difference.
Abominations aren't spirits possessing bodies. What are you talking about? Abominations are demons/spirits taking control over a mage's body and merging their power with the mage's.
That's because Anders didn't become Justice. They both became two different beings. However over the course of the story, it becomes increasingly obvious that the Anders part of of this duo is becoming significantly less apparent. You can say, "100% friendship" until you're blue in the face, but even then, Anders has trouble controlling his own body. That's an abomination. And Rivani seers become abominations all the time. They just treat it as another part of nature.
Really had nothing to do with my point at all.
All the demons in the Circle tower. All the abominations in Kirkwall. Literally every abomination we've ever seen besides Connor, has the demon outside the Fade. That's clearly not the difference.
We have to agree to disagree then, Anders doesn't become Justice however Justice doesn't become Anders either, in friendship they change each other whereas in rivalry Anders is in mercy of Justice. Rivaini seers are mostly abominations but they are in control, that's the important fact, not them being abominations.
Also that was an honest mistake on my part, in all willing aka "gentle" merges the spirit is in the fade, in hostile takeovers the demons transfers however it can still go back to the fade at will unlike Justice. Anders' case was willing.
So, the argument here is that Anders' feelings, somehow, cause an alteration in Justice's biology that turn him into Vengeance and reverts afterwards? Like Justice is suddenly Mr Hyde?
Is there really such a difference between the Justice that wants to kill all Templars and the Justice who attacks Hawke in the Fade? Because I'm not seeing it.
Because Vengeance's very existence requires an angry Anders. That entity in the fade who wants to help Feynriel is not Vengeance, its Justice.
I see where you're coming from, but I think it comes down to interpretation. I personnally do not think that Vengeance needs Anders anger to exists, because Justice is already corrupted. His vision of the world is twisted, he is already leaning towards Vengeance. When Anders is angry, a more vengeful aspect of Justice/Vengeance takes over, but that's pretty much it.
Also, when you go in the Fade, Anders actually cast Vengeance on himself, even if you didn't learn it yet in his specific tree, and you acquire it definitely. I think it's pretty telling.
We talk a lot about how Anders changes throughout the game, but rather than Anders' devolution, it might be Justice's. It might not be Anders that loses himself, as he already has, but the spirit becoming demon.
Interesting, you are right. I just (quickly) checked the wiki-Anders-Approval page and my memory differs from what's listed there. Very few conversation points that support his world view actually yield approval rating.
(Reading that page again I just find it ironic how vindictive and condemning Anders behaves towards Merril while at the same time failing to see how he himself is sliding down a far worse ramp. I want an option to "<Star> <Slap him> Wake up Anders, just for a moment, THINK!")
Well, there's also the fact that his worldview isn't inherently a terrorist's one; it's just a desire that mages be free from the templars.
So, the argument here is that Anders' feelings, somehow, cause an alteration in Justice's biology that turn him into Vengeance.
What I have quote is how I viewed it. Anders poisoned Justice with his hatred of templars, mutating Justice irrevocably.
Well, there's also the fact that his worldview isn't inherently a terrorist's one; it's just a desire that mages be free from the templars.
You could ask every single terrorist that exists or has ever existed and they would all tell you a tale where they are the good guys.
What creates a terrorist is not an woldview; actions are what makes a person a terrorist.
What I have quote is how I viewed it. Anders poisoned Justice with his hatred of templars, mutating Justice irrevocably.
I'm pretty sure the only poisoning was with the darkspawn taint. Why else would Corypheus have been able to seize control of Justice?
You could ask every single terrorist that exists or has ever existed and they would all tell you a tale where they are the good guys.
Everyone is the hero of their own story.
You could ask every single terrorist that exists or has ever existed and they would all tell you a tale where they are the good guys.
What creates a terrorist is not an woldview; actions are what makes a person a terrorist.
Indeed. So the fact that Hawke never willingly supports Anders' bombing ensures that they don't enable anything terroristy.
I'm pretty sure the only poisoning was with the darkspawn taint. Why else would Corypheus have been able to seize control of Justice?
No, Corypheus grabbed Anders through the Taint and Justice was pulled along for the ride. During Legacy, Justice only comes out when Anders can't withstand Cory's Call.
No, Corypheus grabbed Anders through the Taint and Justice was pulled along for the ride. During Legacy, Justice only comes out when Anders can't withstand Cory's Call.
If Justice wasn't affected by the taint, Justice should have been able to steer Anders out of Corypheus' influence; instead, Justice is in the driver's seat and submits to Corypheus anyway.
Justice might be able to withstand the taint, Gaider said he might be even able to cure the taint when the calling is close however Cory was so much stronger than the taint.
So, the argument here is that Anders' feelings, somehow, cause an alteration in Justice's biology that turn him into Vengeance and reverts afterwards? Like Justice is suddenly Mr Hyde?
Is there really such a difference between the Justice that wants to kill all Templars and the Justice who attacks Hawke in the Fade? Because I'm not seeing it.
Yet you don't see Anders killing Templars, just like we curse and say things we do not mean while angry Justice is no different, the difference he is transformed into a force of Vengeance. He will do everything to free the mages but he is not going to kill every single Templar. Admittedly its not Vengeance who motivates the chantry incident, that's Justice.
Oh and friend Anders has a certain unique glowing that rival Anders doesn't have. When he is speaking and angry he temporarily glows but his attitude doesn't change and doesn't go violent or anything, its as if Justice and Anders are talking at the same time. Its an interesting event given that codex indicates a friend Anders is one with spirit within, this is definitely a sign.
Also I find using the word biology with Justice very wrong.
Apparently anger induces a biological (or the demon relative term) change, which reverts after a while. Basically a Thedas version of the Hulk. That is the only reasonable explanation. Not just that he is always Vengeance and has anger issues, nuh-uh. Hulky it is!
Apparently anger induces a biological (or the demon relative term) change, which reverts after a while. Basically a Thedas version of the Hulk. That is the only reasonable explanation. Not just that he is always Vengeance and has anger issues, nuh-uh. Hulky it is!
So you are telling me people don't say or do things they'd never do when they are angry? Specially when its scientifically proven anger is temporary insanity and a mind of angry person has same neurological signals as a psychopath.
This is even more true about spirits as they are directly related to the host's emotions, not to mention in Thedas there is a close relation between emotion and magic in the first place. Even Wynne and faith slip when Wynne is angry at the end. If you have a better explanation I'm all ears Emperorknowalot.
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