1260 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

The fact that the Circle put the Rite in place to begin with. It's not like it's a Templar thing. It only serves to benefit the Circle, and as of yet, none of the Circles have attempted to remove it. Everybody doesn't live in the rainbow tinted world a lot of you seem to think mages live in. They're people just like anyone else, and people have quite a few flaws. 

 

Actually I didn't oppose this argument at all, I just don't see why the majority would accept it. Otherwise we would have much more tranquils in circles.

[Br3admax]

Actually I didn't oppose this argument at all, I just don't see why the majority would accept it. Otherwise we would have much more tranquils in circles.

That actually makes no sense at all. The majority of people supporting the way the Rite was put into place does not mean there will be more Tranquil when 

 

A ) The Rite would still only be used in certain situations

and

B ) Only the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander together can enact it. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

The dark power doesn't alter your mind directly like the dark side of the Force does; it just makes demons more interested in you because you can tear the Veil.

DA2 seemed to paint the picture that Blood Magic does indeed affect the mind of the mage.

[MisterJB]

Right let's just place mages in the hands of the state.

Can you spell "Game of Thrones with blood magic"?

[Lulupab]

That actually makes no sense at all. The majority of people supporting the way the Rite was put into place does not mean there will be more Tranquil when 

 

A ) The Rite would still only be used in certain situations

and

B ) Only the First Enchanter and the Knight-Commander together can enact it. 

 

Well apart from the obvious mages who are not harrowed, some harrowed mages can be made tranquil in case of "significant provocation" (Gaider's words) and I cannot be the only one who realize how subjective this is. This can be abused to no end to make more tranquils. Also I meant the majority of pro-mages, not majority of population. I'm having a hard time believing majority of pro mages advocate tranquility. I'd wager those pro-mages are now participating in rebellion.

 

 

Right let's just place mages in the hands of the state.

Can you spell "Game of Thrones with blood magic"?

 

Actually the ideal situation would be Templars in hand of state, autonomy in circles. In that case the state would be obligated to watch over its mages because now its the duty of the state. The way I see it Templars are kinda like black ops or something which is why some were worried they might get cerberus treatment because their laws override the state's, one higher state power is better than alternative.

[The Hierophant]

Templars and mages being under the control of Thedas' power hungry noblility seems problematic. Imagine Thedas' monarchies having free reign to do as they please with the mages and templars. While the Chantry's knowledge on a mage's capacity for destruction kept the CoM's involvement in conflicts to a minimum, there's no guarantee that Thedas's monarchies would hold such reservations. Plus without a neutral organization to allocate lyrium amongst each nation's Circle/temp regiment there's the possibility of the richer nations monopolising the lyrium trade. Their potential monopoly of the lyrium trade can deprive the poorer nations of templars and trained mages. With that deprivation of lyrium, the wealthier nations could force disadvantageous concessions on poorer nations or just flatout conquer them.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well apart from the obvious mages who are not harrowed, some harrowed mages can be made tranquil in case of "significant provocation" (Gaider's words) and I cannot be the only one who realize how subjective this is. This can be abused to no end to make more tranquils. 

Only if the First Enchanter allows the abuse, because it STILL requires the First Enchanter's approval.

[MisterJB]

Actually the ideal situation would be Templars in hand of state, autonomy in circles. In that case the state would be obligated to watch over its mages because now its the duty of the state. The way I see it Templars are kinda like black ops or something which is why some were worried they might get cerberus treatment because their laws override the state's, one higher state power is better than alternative.

On one had you give them autonomy, on the other you claim the state has a duty to watch over them.

And the point stands. Removing mages from the control of the Chantry who has an interest and the ability to keep them neutral in most conflicts will only lead to barons and kings using peasants as blood batteries.

That if the mages don't take over first; it's a terrible idea.

 

In the purchase of lyrium, wealthy nations will be able to outbid poorer ones leading to tactics such as starving both mages; making them vulnerable to an invasion by mages from a different state; and Templars; making Templars unable to control mages which would lead to chaos and, again, vulnerable to invasion.

And what happens when a mageling is born to normal people? Are the mages just going to take him away? To lose citizenship to its country?

And what happens when mages try to visit towns and this ends up in conflict?

 

And what if the mages, in their distrust, try to keep Templars from dealing with an Abomination crysis inside the Circle? Will they just let the demons pour into the population? Will they all be possessed thus creating a demonic army that will then attack the host nation?

 

And just who will pay for the maintenance of these autonomous Circles? The nation? What will be given in return?

And what happens when there is a population explosion?

[Lulupab]

On one had you give them autonomy, on the other you claim the state has a duty to watch over them.
And the point stands. Removing mages from the control of the Chantry who has an interest and the ability to keep them neutral in most conflicts will only lead to barons and kings using peasants as blood batteries.
That if the mages don't take over first; it's a terrible idea.

That already happens, mages are used in wars the chantry deems justified. The divine openly approved of Orlais' invasion of Ferelden, it was so bad the Ferelden king was about to burn all chantries in Ferelden. Not to mention when there is autonomy in circles mages are the ruling themselves as they always should have. The Templars are only tasked with protecting them from mundanes and vie versa. Claiming chantry is neutral  discredits your argument as the Chantry is fully and completely on Orlais' side.
 

In the purchase of lyrium, wealthy nations will be able to outbid poorer ones leading to tactics such as starving both mages; making them vulnerable to an invasion by mages from a different state; and Templars; making Templars unable to control mages which would lead to chaos and, again, vulnerable to invasion.
And what happens when a mageling is born to normal people? Are the mages just going to take him away? To lose citizenship to its country?
And what happens when mages try to visit towns and this ends up in conflict?

Nothing will change, the state is more than capable of giving lyrium to the Templars. David Gaider have said the cirlces are completely self efficient, gaining more than enough profits with their services such as solving magical abnormalities and enchantment and potions. They can buy their own Lyrium. The mages will be taken to the circles like always and the stated controlled templars are still obligated to assist the circles. The only difference is mages are governing themselves and the Templars answer to the state. The circles will go on as usual. Mages can visit towns with Templar supervision
 

And what if the mages, in their distrust, try to keep Templars from dealing with an Abomination crysis inside the Circle? Will they just let the demons pour into the population? Will they all be possessed thus creating a demonic army that will then attack the host nation?
 
And just who will pay for the maintenance of these autonomous Circles? The nation? What will be given in return?
And what happens when there is a population explosion?

If mages go full abomination there is nothing Templars can do but to lock them in and wait for reinforcements. We see this in DAO. They can protect mundanes, ultimately its the mages who will die for what has happened. It will be absolutely no different. And as I said circles are already self efficient economically. 

 

All you have done is nitpicking. 

[simpatikool]

Anders is a tool as far as the player that controlled my various Hawke thinks.

[elrofrost]

Yeah I gather that Anders is pretty controversial in the fandom.

 

And that's exactly why he should be in the game. Dead or alive. Please Bioware - well i guess it's too late now - but don't turn this into another ME3 where everything is sugar-coated. I want drama! i want tears, anger and love - just like DA:O delivered (sadly DA2 did not. Though I still liked the game itself).

[HTTP 404]

And what will you do if Anders turns out to still be himself?

 

which Anders are you referring to?  Awakening Anders, I would like and probably share a pint and a joke with.  Vengeance Anders, I would step away slowly while he rants.

 

I also want to put out there that I love what they did with Anders in Da2.  I thought his transformation to villainy was subtle and brilliant.  I really disliked who he became at the end.  I know others don't agree with me and that's okay.  I think it's great that a character can be polarizing.

[MisterJB]

That already happens, mages are used in wars the chantry deems justified. The divine openly approved of Orlais' invasion of Ferelden, it was so bad the Ferelden king was about to burn all chantries in Ferelden. Not to mention when there is autonomy in circles mages are the ruling themselves as they always should have. The Templars are only tasked with protecting them from mundanes and vie versa. Claiming chantry is neutral  discredits your argument as the Chantry is fully and completely on Orlais' side.

 

*snip*

The grand contribution the Chantry of Orlais; and there is a difference between the Chantry of Orlais and that of Ferelden; provided to the Emperor was three mages and moral support.

Three mages; that was how non-neutral the Orlesian Chantry was which is only expected; the Chantry of Ferelden eventually condemned the occupation when it was not certain death to do so.

 

And when the Blight ocurred, seven mages were. Just seven.

 

Three mages in a war between human nations and seven against Darkspawn.

Now, do you think nobles would have the same restraint and not send hundreds of mages against their enemies? Hence why the Chantry is neutral.

 

 

You keep saying "autonomy" but do not explain what autonomy means and how it would differ from the current state of affairs. For instance, autonomy, in my mind, would implicate the freedom to not live in the Circle, to be employed by nobles, to be able to live, never mind visit, in a city without having Templar supervision, to be able to own land or businesses.

 

If you think that I am nitpicking, then you need to properly detail your "plan" or, obviously, it can be filled with holes.

 

As it stands, I am already having problems with it:

 

"The only difference is mages are governing themselves and the Templars answer to the state."

 

Ok, so let's say a king wishes to have the mages fight in his army; he offers them wealth and noble titles, etc. The mages accept.

Then, this king starts using peasants to fuel blood magic. The mages do it. He goes as far as to select weak mages to become Abominations and be released into enemy lines; demonology too is allowed for the sake of victory.

Now, usually, the Templars deal with this except the Templars answer to the state and, therefore, the king forbids them from doing anything.

 

Or, what about this? A noble suffers a terrible monetary loss. The lucrosians lend him money. Through this noble, the lucrosians start influencing politics. Usually, the Templars deal with this. Except they are beholden to the state and the lucrosians pressure the noble to pressure the monarch to block Templar efforts.

 

Hence why the Chantry is important. Because it is an international, neutral organization capable of controlling magical incidents and keeping mages away from politics.
 

[MisterJB]

Plus without a neutral organization to allocate lyrium amongst each nation's Circle/temp regiment there's the possibility of the richer nations monopolising the lyrium trade. Their potential monopoly of the lyrium trade can deprive the poorer nations of templars and trained mages. With that deprivation of lyrium, the wealthier nations could force disadvantageous concessions on poorer nations or just flatout conquer them.

Also, this.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Templars and mages being under the control of Thedas' power hungry noblility seems problematic. Imagine Thedas' monarchies having free reign to do as they please with the mages and templars. While the Chantry's knowledge on a mage's capacity for destruction kept the CoM's involvement in conflicts to a minimum, there's no guarantee that Thedas's monarchies would hold such reservations. Plus without a neutral organization to allocate lyrium amongst each nation's Circle/temp regiment there's the possibility of the richer nations monopolising the lyrium trade. Their potential monopoly of the lyrium trade can deprive the poorer nations of templars and trained mages. With that deprivation of lyrium, the wealthier nations could force disadvantageous concessions on poorer nations or just flatout conquer them.

Rich nations do that anyways because the Chantry sides with which ever nation the chantry favors, mostly those with power and money. Lets not forget that the previous viscount of Kirkwall was put down by templars who was told to put pressure on him because he was taxing Orlesian ships. Whoever the Chantry favors has the favors of the templars at their disposal. At least free mages are able to support those disenfranchised nations even if it goes against Chantry agenda. 

[MisterJB]

Rich nations do that anyways because the Chantry sides with which ever nation the chantry favors, mostly those with power and money. Lets not forget that the previous viscount of Kirkwall was put down by templars who was told to put pressure on him because he was taxing Orlesian ships. Whoever the Chantry favors has the favors of the templars at their disposal. At least free mages are able to support those disenfranchised nations even if it goes against Chantry agenda. 

The previous Viscount was put down because he attacked the Templars and executed the previous Knight Commander.

They were asked to pressure him, not to kill him and its worth noting that the Codex states this was the first time it happened and that Orlais threatened an invasion. Thus, the Chantry's actions could be seen as trying to avoid a war.

 

It is true the Chantry can be sligthly biased in favor of Orlais; when the Divine is neighbors with the Emperor, what can you expect; but that didn't translate into mage batallions in the Ferelden invasion. Had the Circle been under the command of the Emperor, thousands of orlesians mages would have fought against Ferelden.

 

A free for all regarding lyrium and mages under the state would just lead to chaos. Orlais could pay the dwarves to not sell lyrium to Ferelden. This results in their mages being weaker than orlesians and it would also prevent Templars properly doing their jobs which would result in abuses of magical power, blood mages and Abominations, further softening the nation before invasion.

[Sports72Xtrm]

The previous Viscount was put down because he attacked the Templars and executed the previous Knight Commander.

They were asked to pressure him, not to kill him and its worth noting that the Codex states this was the first time it happened and that Orlais threatened an invasion. Thus, the Chantry's actions could be seen as trying to avoid a war.

 

It is true the Chantry can be sligthly biased in favor of Orlais; when the Divine is neighbors with the Emperor, what can you expect; but that didn't translate into mage batallions in the Ferelden invasion. Had the Circle been under the command of the Emperor, thousands of orlesians mages would have fought against Ferelden.

 

A free for all regarding lyrium and mages under the state would just lead to chaos. Orlais could pay the dwarves to not sell lyrium to Ferelden. This results in their mages being weaker than orlesians and it would also prevent Templars properly doing their jobs which would result in abuses of magical power, blood mages and Abominations, further softening the nation before invasion.

Most nations could always get their lyrium from the Carta or that other dwarven nation. What, the dwarves are going to say no from profiteering from all sides? I doubt it.

[Lulupab]

I'm really exhausted atm to excuse me if I'm not really in the mood to type long texts, I think creating a new order for both the Templars and mages is a better idea. A religious organizations shouldn't be in charge of mages and Templars. I get why it has to be a neutral party but Chantry had its turn and it didn't work out, the Templars ended up having too much power and authority with too less supervision and it frustrated the mages. Just because it last a long time it doesn't mean its good.

[Br3admax]

Completely missing the point where larger nations would just buy more lyrium than the smaller nations would be able to keep up with. 

 

I'm really exhausted atm to excuse me if I'm not really in the mood to type long texts, I think creating a new order for both the Templars and mages is a better idea. A religious organizations shouldn't be in charge of mages and Templars. I get why it has to be a neutral party but Chantry had its turn and it didn't work out, the Templars ended up having too much power and authority with too less supervision and it frustrated the mages. Just because it last a long time it doesn't mean its good.

I too am exhausted. Too exhausted to look for your sources. Why don't you post one. When did Templars have too much power? 

[Sports72Xtrm]

lyrium is like heroine. No matter how many nations put sanctions against it, if its in demand and the consumer has the money, it will get where it has to be even if its by shady means. And unless lyrium just stops growing, I doubt any nation can monopolize all the lyrium. some dwarven faction whether criminal or royalty are always willing to sell to anybody.

[Br3admax]

Lyrium actually isn't like heroine at all. The absolute worst comparison I can think of. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

I too am exhausted. Too exhausted to look for your sources. Why don't you post one. When did Templars have too much power? 

Arguably Kirkwall. But then again Kirkwall is a deviation from the norm.

[raging_monkey]

Lyrium actually isn't like heroine at all. The absolute worst comparison I can think of.

i relate it to smoking tobacco/alcohol much more appropriate imo

Arguably Kirkwall. But then again Kirkwall is a deviation from the norm.

an extreme deviation, but apparently its shared by the marches to a extent

[Br3admax]

Aside from being addictive, lyrium is not like any recreational drug. To compare them simply for that is kind of ignorant.

[Lulupab]

Completely missing the point where larger nations would just buy more lyrium than the smaller nations would be able to keep up with. 

 

I too am exhausted. Too exhausted to look for your sources. Why don't you post one. When did Templars have too much power? 

 

Meredith had the power to block elections. the templars assigned to watch over the Circles of Magi in Kinloch Hold and Kirkwall are much more powerful, and in the case of Kirkwall, more powerful even than the civilian government in the city. Their powers are varied from province to province but I bet there are more places like Kirkwall. Because according to lore the only requirement to become a templars is wanting to become one, anyone can undergo the training that includes perverts and such as well. There is never shortage of recruits.

 

Where were the "watchers of watchmen" aka the seekers when it all went down. 

 

A knight-commander's approval is required in everything in the circle. Its never the first Enchanter alone (who needs knight commander's approval to be elected anyway) they either decide something together or the knight commander decides it by himself.

 

from codex: Driven by their faith, the templars are one of the most feared and respected forces in Thedas.

 

Too tired to look for more.