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[Treacherous J Slither]

They also don't need to be torn apart by angry fearful mobs of people.

 

It appears that many mundanes are in need of education as well.

 

A lot of fear is born of ignorance. Get rid of the ignorance and you may get rid of the fear.

[Medhia_Nox]

@JSlither:  I agree with her.  I agree with her even though my personal headcanon is a Circle mage who chose to head to the tower because his mind was haunted by demons and he had already endangered those around him unknowingly. 

 

You'll likely say:  "You wouldn't think that way if you were really there."  But you don't know me and you don't know that.

 

I would intern myself in a Circle because I believe that the "prison" I was in was there for a reason.  Because I care about the people of Thedas, because I believe my gift comes with a very terrible burden, because I believe that the first path to possession is believing you're free from possession.  

 

I would study magic, I would offer my use of magic up whenever possible and likely gain freedoms my cohorts would hate me for.  I would study healing and anti-magic.  I would consider myself an "Exorcist" and write a dissertation beseeching the First Enchanter to help me speak with the Divine about the ability to fight demons by entering the Fade and the development of a group of such mage demon hunters who try to liberate mages and commoners alike through the Fade by battling demons.

 

I would devote my life to this and I would be supremely pissed at what I consider an army of lunatics throwing a tantrum and dragging me into the war.  I would oppose the rebellion every step I got and leave it the first chance I could (possibly seeking out mages like Vivienne to join up with).

 

As it is - the events on the mountain "solved" the issue for my character.

 

"Locked up" may not be necessary - but under constant supervisions - each and every mage.  Yes, that is necessary.

[Gtdef]

Vivienne is in a unique position to fight for rights. Rights is the only currency that matters. Starting a rebellion with hardly any long term goal other than "we want to be free" is selfish, dangerous and downright idiotic.

 

The reasoning that a mage can't enter society because he can set a barn on fire by just thinking very hard, or kill someone with his mind is flawed. Throw a match into the barn and you get same results. Stab someone in the neck with a concealed blade same thing. It's the intention and the action that matters, not the method. People are afraid of that which they don't understand. Becoming familiar with mages and what they can or can't do is a huge step to accept them.

[ArvinDulku]

Because they are dangerous.

Yes, the level to which they are dangerous maybe exaggerated, but they are dangerous nonetheless.

So if I have to choose to protect a large populous or allow potentially dangerous individuals unfettered freedom, it isn't even hard what I would choose.

And no, human rights do not apply in this argument, and if you think they do I will never follow your logic. Thedas is fantasy world where magic and demons are not stories but rather a constant and present danger, so real world values and modern days perspectives will never apply.

*waits to be accused of being a fascist*
 

[herkles]

The Circle should simply be a school where mages learn to control their powers and themselves. Where they learn to become productive members of society. Not a prison. Just a school.

 

The Templars should simply be a police force that goes after bad mages and magic related issues like demons and abominations. They should also allow mages to join their ranks.

 

This right here is the solution.

 

Now who among you think that this is silly and actually advocate locking up mages? 

 

I agree for the most part. Though being that Thedas is a medieval-esque world, unlike most people I(as well as my main inquistor) tends to support that both the templars and the circle should be under the control of the Chantry. For the medieval style world that is Thedas, this makes the most sense and it is why my Inquistor is supporting it.  

 

Snip

 

You make a lot of good points here. Especially in regards to the fact that the mages don't seem to have a goal and their lack of caring for the mundanes of thedas. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Gtdef:  Which is why I pray we find out she was really close to making headway on rights for mages just when Adrian cast the mages into war. 

 

Cause I'd be pissed if all my hard work I had done peacefully had been undone by a manipulative psycho who framed her best friend and murdered a recently un-Tranquilized mage to force her war.

[Cyrus Amell]

Ok, were is this new video?

[leaguer of one]

Vivienne is in a unique position to fight for rights. Rights is the only currency that matters. Starting a rebellion with hardly any long term goal other than "we want to be free" is selfish, dangerous and downright idiotic.

 

The reasoning that a mage can't enter society because he can set a barn on fire by just thinking very hard, or kill someone with his mind is flawed. Throw a match into the barn and you get same results. Stab someone in the neck with a concealed blade same thing. It's the intention and the action that matters, not the method. People are afraid of that which they don't understand. Becoming familiar with mages and what they can or can't do is a huge step to accept them.

They didn't start the rebellion, they were forced into it.

[HiroVoid]

Vivienne is in a unique position to fight for rights. Rights is the only currency that matters. Starting a rebellion with hardly any long term goal other than "we want to be free" is selfish, dangerous and downright idiotic.

 

The reasoning that a mage can't enter society because he can set a barn on fire by just thinking very hard, or kill someone with his mind is flawed. Throw a match into the barn and you get same results. Stab someone in the neck with a concealed blade same thing. It's the intention and the action that matters, not the method. People are afraid of that which they don't understand. Becoming familiar with mages and what they can or can't do is a huge step to accept them

A single demon can wreck an entire town and possibly others.  The number of single people in the game that can do that are very, very limited.

[Hellion Rex]

Ok, were is this new video?

 

[Sifr]

Anders kills hundreds of people in Kirkwall, and then another mage tries to assassinate the divine, uniting the common people and the Nobels in fear of magic. Then the Mage leaders rebel against the Chantry, when this fear is at it's peak. Now you want to condemn Vivenne for pointing this out...why?

 

Except as I pointed out on another thread regarding Anders potentially appearing in Inquisition, there were already the Resolutionists who were gunning for Elthina or a high-up Chantry member anyway to assassinate, as well as attempting to incite a Mage Uprising in Kirkwall. Regardless of Anders blowing up the Chantry, something was going to happen like that eventually anyway?

 

Furthermore, the "hundreds" of people Anders supposedly killed simply doesn't add up with what we witnessed, as the explosion took place in the middle of the night, the debris was mostly thrown clear of the city and by far, the airburst was the most destructive element of the entire thing. The hundreds figured only presumably comes from the amount of people who died in the subsequent rioting, looting, uncontrolled fires and the deaths of the Mages and Templars in the Gallows, of which blame cannot be solely placed as Anders feet as Hawke can have executed him long before any of these deaths occurred.

 

I'm not meaning to condemn Viv, just pointing out that her viewpoint seems a little skewed towards seeing the rebels as a bunch of ungrateful fools who are throwing a tantrum, instead of realising that the reason for the Mages rebelling en-masse was because of a ton of legitimate reasons.

 

Furthermore, if Fiona didn't have support of enough people to become Grand Enchanter, effectively the head of the Circle of Chantry, then she'd never have been put into a position of authority that would have allowed her to suggest the vote to disband the Circle of Magi! (Twice!)

 

There's likely a good reason they chose to elect Fiona to that post and not a Chantry Loyalist (like Vivienne) and that's because most of the First Enchanters and Senior Enchanters, frankly weren't that happy with the way things are being run by the Chantry, Templars and Seekers and wanted things to change? It's only until the events of Asunder when they were willing to put their money where their mouth was.

[mikeymoonshine]

i was highlighting how the rebel mages think.

their is no right or wrong there is only perspective.

 

No there are some rights and wrongs and you certainly were making counter arguments to Vivienne's claims and therefore insinuating that they were incorrect or misguided. I also contest this "voice of the rebals" thing you've got going. 

 

 

 

And really? Vivienne referred to them as spoiled children for wanting their freedom.

the implication is their confinement is completely acceptable and its objectionable to even want Independence.

 

Please quote for me the part where she says that because I fail to see where she made these arguments. 

 

 

the rebel mages no longer cared about anything other then that freedom, the statement give me liberty or give me death sums it up. Losing a rebellion, losing their life, doesn't matter they weren't going to accept a collar any longer. they don't view it as some political opinion where everyone sits down and considers whether it will work in the long run. it's straight up this is it we win or we die but we don't accept these conditions any longer.

 

The rebel leadership maybe but no most circle mages are not clones of Anders with exactly the same views as Anders. That was pretty much the point she was making, the rebel leaders care nothing for the circle mages, they only care about freedom as you say. 

[Jaison1986]

@JSlither:  I agree with her.  I agree with her even though my personal headcanon is a Circle mage who chose to head to the tower because his mind was haunted by demons and he had already endangered those around him unknowingly. 

 

You'll likely say:  "You wouldn't think that way if you were really there."  But you don't know me and you don't know that.

 

I would intern myself in a Circle because I believe that the "prison" I was in was there for a reason.  Because I care about the people of Thedas, because I believe my gift comes with a very terrible burden, because I believe that the first path to possession is believing you're free from possession.  

 

I would study magic, I would offer my use of magic up whenever possible and likely gain freedoms my cohorts would hate me for.  I would study healing and anti-magic.  I would consider myself an "Exorcist" and write a dissertation beseeching the First Enchanter to help me speak with the Divine about the ability to fight demons by entering the Fade and the development of a group of such mage demon hunters who try to liberate mages and commoners alike through the Fade by battling demons.

 

I would devote my life to this and I would be supremely pissed at what I consider an army of lunatics throwing a tantrum and dragging me into the war.  I would oppose the rebellion every step I got and leave it the first chance I could (possibly seeking out mages like Vivienne to join up with).

 

As it is - the events on the mountain "solved" the issue for my character.

 

"Locked up" may not be necessary - but under constant supervisions - each and every mage.  Yes, that is necessary.

 

Such supervisions come from an group utterly unfit for it. Who would you rather have? An bunch religious zealots whose agendas are driven by religious fervor or an group of people of reason, that understand both the benefits and dangers of magic and would judge you for who you are rather then what you are?

[Treacherous J Slither]

I do, so there.

 

Is education and training not needed then? Only to have them confined somewhere?

 

If they have received the proper education and training then why is there still a need to lock them up?

[Medhia_Nox]

People are afraid of a man who used a giant beam of light to blow up a church.

 

People are afraid of a man who walked up to their religious leader and tried to kill her.

 

People are afraid because they're turned into Werewolves by a psycho elf with a vendetta.

 

People are afraid because their wives, mothers, daughters were being killed and turned into a Frankenstein's monster.

 

People are afraid because in the heat of danger the First Enchanter of their city turned into a giant mass of bodies.

 

People are afraid because the apostate mage maleficar couldn't teach the boy mage enough and their town was ransacked by undead.

 

Let's not pretend for one second that there's not a reason to be afraid of mages.

[Tevinter Soldier]

One thing that strikes me as right, however, is when she says that mages had little considerations for the outside.

 

Well, not right, she does come from a very privileged background, but she's got a point. Whenever we like it or not, mages are locked up in circles for a reason- and as the series has shown us thus far, the danger mages pose is not some sort of propaganda. It's a very, very real one. At the most basic level, if your next door neighboor can fry you with a snap of his finger or make your children murder you by controling their blood, you are always going to be at least slightly wary of him even if he's the nicest guy to ever exist. 

 

The Andrastian religion turns this up to 11, but it's far from a baseless fear. And the only thing the mage rebellion does is fuel the fires of that fear, by wreacking havoc as soon as they are free. Sure, they do so for good reasons, many of them want to be free or just survive, but it still in many's eyes no doubt vindicate everything the Chantry has ever said about mages: you lock them up or they cause trouble.

 

Besides, what's the end goal of the Rebellion anyway? There must be some sort of actual goal. Force the Chantry to the negociating table? I suppose, but there's no way they will be very lenient after the mages proved firsthand how much destruction can be caused by letting them loose. Destroy the Templar order? Good luck, and it's not like they can't simply raise more religious warriors to fight mages that just futher prove to be incredibly dangerous. Destroy the Chantry itself? The amount of chaos and death resulting from that would be appaling, not to mention the task is daunting to say the least, given how well rooted the religion is.

 

It just seems like the mages rebelled because, well, templars are evil and stuff, not because they had an actual idea of what to do in the aftermath. If this turns out to be true, it also leads credence to Vivienne's points.

 

you miss the point entirely their end goal is freedom, that's it. rebellions don't start by people having any idea what to do with it afterwards, by leaving the circle they achieved their goal they were free. until the templars went rogue.

 

people forget the Magi didn't start the war, they simply left the circles. the Templars are the ones who went rogue to murder them all and the Magi have been defending themselves ever since.

[HiroVoid]

Let's not pretend for one second that there's not a reason to be afraid of mages.

Its probably more accurate to say 'Lets not pretend that the things mages can do is something any random joe is capable of'

[leaguer of one]

Such supervisions come from an group utterly unfit for it. Who would you rather have? An bunch religious zealots whose agendas are driven by religious fervor or an group of people of reason, that understand both the benefits and dangers of magic and would judge you for who you are rather then what you are?

Both sides have people like that though some have less then others.

[The Baconer]

I doubt it sadly. I think most of the people who were pro cooperation died in the explosion

 

Then it's only proper that all the anti-cooperation people die after it.

 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Jaison1986:  And what makes the mages more reasonable? This is the entire problem with mages.  They're born with extraordinary gifts... but their minds are all too ordinary.

I don't find Jowan, Zathrian, Uldred, Connor or a laundry list of others "reasonable". 

 

Everyone, EVERYONE, has bad things happen to them... but when it happens to mages... hundreds suffer for it.  That is not reasonable. 

 

That being said - if you've read any of my other posts - you know I don't support the Templars or the former state of the Towers.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Doubt it.  Kill enough of them and the survivors will go back.  Very rarely is it ever freedom or death to the last man.

 

obviously but it's the motto they stick by in the beginning. war has a way of whittling down your supporters.

after all if they weren't willing to give in there'd be no one at the summit. doesn't change the fact that when things came to ahead it was a vote one way or another accept templar rule or leave the circle. they left the circle.

[leaguer of one]

People are afraid of a man who used a giant beam of light to blow up a church.

 

People are afraid of a man who walked up to their religious leader and tried to kill her.

 

People are afraid because they're turned into Werewolves by a psycho elf with a vendetta.

 

People are afraid because their wives, mothers, daughters were being killed and turned into a Frankenstein's monster.

 

People are afraid because in the heat of danger the First Enchanter of their city turned into a giant mass of bodies.

 

People are afraid because the apostate mage maleficar couldn't teach the boy mage enough and their own was ransacked by undead.

 

Let's not pretend for one second that there's not a reason to be afraid of mages.

First of all that the reason to be afraid of magic not mages.

 

Any demon can posses people, control them and turn them to monsters.

 

Ignorace with always cause harm.

 

Dwarves can also make flesh golems as well.

 

The mage that when after the divine came from one of the people in the chantry who was suppose to serve her.

 

Anyone with enough lyrium and magical knowledge can make a bomb Ander's made.

 

The issue is magic not mages and locking them up is not going to solve the issue of magic nor reduce it.

[HiroVoid]

obviously but it's the motto they stick by in the beginning. war has a way of whittling down your supporters.

after all if they weren't willing to give in there'd be no one at the summit. doesn't change the fact that when things came to ahead it was a vote one way or another accept templar rule or leave the circle. they left the circle.

If I remember right, the vote was also only performed by the first enchanters, and they were partly manipulated by Adrian's schemes....along with Adrian being one of the votes.

[Nohvarr]

Furthermore, the "hundreds" of people Anders supposedly killed simply doesn't add up with what we witnessed, as the explosion took place in the middle of the night, the debris was mostly thrown clear of the city and by far, the airburst was the most destructive element of the entire thing.

I'm inclined to believe Viv, especially since she said those people died at a mages hands and we saw fires started in the aftermath of that blast.